[Chesterandfam]

We're currently trying the Librela injections with Chester to find out if his diagnosis he has at this point is correct, or something else may be going on. We are about 2 and a half weeks into his first injection and we were told to assess his progress (or lack thereof) with the vet at the end of the third week. For that purpose I've taken a video today (I added that one below). I still see the issue we've been noticing before the diagnosis on walks in the same degree and sometimes worse, but when we filmed today it was a little less prominent as he's a bit out of it today. When he's high strung he takes a little shorter strides which affects what you can see.

Since I'm neck deep into this and so focused on the one thing we've seen develop from the start, I find it hard to look at it a little objectively and may be seeing too much. It's also possible that I don't notice other things that aren't as obvious because of it.
So my question is if some people would be so kind to give their opinion on his gait. What do you see? What is really abnormal and what is just normal? I'm writing the vet an e-mail either tomorrow or the day after and this is one of the observations I would like to include.

I specifically left out what I see and what his diagnosis is so people won't be influenced by it.

Thanks in advance!

http://imgur.com/a/dMta3Xi

 

[BigBlackDog]

I see nothing odd about your dog's gait, though the video of him walking at a human's pace directly away from the camera has got to be the least informative angle and pace available to show gait. Try taking some video of the dog running after a ball or another dog from a side angle, as that would make assessing his gait much easier! I'm curious as to what his diagnosis was/is, but understand you wanting to withhold that info for now to get unbiased opinions.

 

[DogRun]

To me, the gait looks fine from this angle as well. But it's hard because we don't have the "before" reference point.

We use Librela, so I know what it's for. Did you do x-rays for his original diagnosis (since x-rays are very reliable for that)? Are you doing Librela to eliminate that, and trying to figure out if there is something additional going on? I think it's great that you're looking into physical health factors and pain, so often that gets overlooked, but it reeeeally influences behaviour!

Wishing you and your pup all the best!

 

[Chesterandfam]

I see nothing odd about your dog's gait, though the video of him walking at a human's pace directly away from the camera has got to be the least informative angle and pace available to show gait. Try taking some video of the dog running after a ball or another dog from a side angle, as that would make assessing his gait much easier! I'm curious as to what his diagnosis was/is, but understand you wanting to withhold that info for now to get unbiased opinions.

I can understand others not really seeing anything. That's why I asked in the first place, as I'm so hyper focused on it. If others don't really see anything it's useless to attach the clip to the e-mail to the specialist. We didn't manage to get one where it shows better as he was quite restless yesterday, and it shows in extending his leg backwards which he does way less when taking shorter strides. Personally I do see it a bit, but it's very subtle. However, the video I took is really the best for seeing what is wrong as the problem occurs (or at least is seen best) only in walking, and best if he is walking away from you.

As I don't really expect more replies, he is diagnosed with beginning stages mild bilateral hip dysplasia with beginning stage arthritis in his left leg. When walking he has developed from doing a weird twisty thing with his lower right leg before putting it down, to having his right hip and upper leg come outward when putting weight on it and extending it backwards. When filming from the side you can't really see that, hence the angle. In the beginning we just saw "something" and I had to put clips in slowmotion to see the weird twisting motion at all, now I even see the problem in the house sometimes and he's gotten a lot more clumsy with his back legs overall.
The specialist is trying to find out if what he does is because of pain (that's why we're trying the Librela now) or that his back end is getting progressively more weak from a cause they haven't found yet.

 

[Chesterandfam]

To me, the gait looks fine from this angle as well. But it's hard because we don't have the "before" reference point.

We use Librela, so I know what it's for. Did you do x-rays for his original diagnosis (since x-rays are very reliable for that)? Are you doing Librela to eliminate that, and trying to figure out if there is something additional going on? I think it's great that you're looking into physical health factors and pain, so often that gets overlooked, but it reeeeally influences behaviour!

Wishing you and your pup all the best!

Honestly, I don't have the before reference point either haha. I only started filming clips like this last June as we started seeing split seconds of "something off" and we just couldn't put our finger on it. I do agree that the video doesn't show it that much, only when you really know what you are looking for, but in the state he is in now it's hard to get a good video. When we're on a regular walk and I can really see it happen, it's often dark and not that great for filming.

We did do x-rays but it's so mild that for me it's a "find the differences puzzle" when I put an x-ray of a normal hip next to it. The orthopedist was certain of it though, so we decided to trust him on it and explore this as a cause of the symptoms we were seeing first. At first we tried two different oral medicine but he got way more reactive, on edge and restless on them and the symptoms stayed the same. It might just have messed with his already sensitive stomach and bowels, or it was purely the medicine, but it was so bad that we called the orthopedist to discuss other options. He said that if the symptoms had stayed the same he wanted to try if the Librela would make a difference, and if it didn't that they were moving on with MRI scans because then he didn't think they had found the cause yet.

That has been a ride so far as well. The first week I wasn't sure if I still saw his symptoms, he got better reactivity wise (a bit different than we know him also, but better nonetheless) and I feel like he slept deeper. The fourth day he did have an "episode" but that may have been coincidence as I feel that they do tend to show up somewhere every 3 months.
The second week he turned like a leaf, freaked out at a bicycle (normally his problem is just dogs as close as across the street, people on the same sidewalk and pigeons), was restless outside (even launched my partner off his feet when off-leash) and was constantly stealing stuff inside to tear up (abnormal for him) plus I was sure I saw his symptoms again.
Start of the third week (last thursday) he's less restless inside but still outside, a bit less reactive, turns out to have had another episode yesterday when we were gone (we have a camera), totally obsessed over a deer antler he has had for god knows how long up until the point where he didn't come for his walk twice the past week, and despite less destructive just a bit out of it and not really the dog we know.

All of this will be in my e-mail so I'm curious what the orthopedist is going to say. All that I was still trying to find out was if the walking had gotten better, stayed the same or worse. But I guess when in doubt, I'll just keep it on the same.

Anyways, thank you! We'll figure this out someday I guess.

 

[BigBlackDog]

Unless the HD is severe, chances are he won't be hampered too much by it anyway, so I'm confused as to why "diagnosing" it is so crucial - particularly if it's mild?

I mean, mild HD wouldn't warrant surgical intervention anyway right? So how would a diagnosis help him or you?

 

[Chesterandfam]

That the HD is mild does not mean that the arthritis (even though also mild) doesn't hurt. We're dealing with a reactive dog, so despite that I feel that no dog should be left in pain, he specifically gets more agitated and fearful when in pain and we're pulling on a dead horse behavior modification wise if we choose to not give a damn. And besides that, if he is not in pain that means that the diagnosis is wrong and there is another cause that we just have not found yet.

So no we were not going for surgery. We're purely trying to find out if he is in pain or not and how much. Goal is just making sure it's the right diagnosis, and keeping him pain free.

 

[BigBlackDog]

That the HD is mild does not mean that the arthritis (even though also mild) doesn't hurt. We're dealing with a reactive dog, so despite that I feel that no dog should be left in pain, he specifically gets more agitated and fearful when in pain and we're pulling on a dead horse behavior modification wise if we choose to not give a damn. And besides that, if he is not in pain that means that the diagnosis is wrong and there is another cause that we just have not found yet.

So no we were not going for surgery. We're purely trying to find out if he is in pain or not and how much. Goal is just making sure it's the right diagnosis, and keeping him pain free.

Got it, and that makes perfect sense! I wasn't suggesting that you ignore any pain the dog might be feeling!

But I didn't see anything suggesting your dog was in pain in that video either.

 

[Chesterandfam]

Oh no, I totally get that! I think that response came out a bit more "harsh" (not the word I'm looking for but you'll get what I mean) than I had intended. Honestly, up until two months ago we didn't think he was in pain either. We suspected a more neurological problem (think along the lines of degenerative myelopathy) because of not believing he was in pain and the fact that he peed in the house two or three times. He has held up diarrhea until the point of having to vomit before, so this is not a dog that is just going to go because he feels like it and doesn't try to signal to us that he needs to go first. His issue also has come up slowly over the time of 6 months, so that was also consistent with a degenerative neurological issue. That's why we also went to the vet now it's still subtle, because we went for the peeing issues and asked about the leg when they couldn't find anything, thinking that those two might be connected. It was either pain related or weakness in muscles in our minds.

We've got quite the stoic dog, so our best indication of pain is his behavior and not the physical or vocal signs. I've only started considering that he might be in pain since his diagnosis, but we really don't know for sure. That conclusion will be drawn when he either does or does not react to the medication. And to be fair, it already was subtle enough that people who didn't look for it could easily miss it and even then it didn't look like he was in pain. The video I took yesterday is even more subtle, and I think that the medication may even be kicking back in. I didn't see him do it on his walks today either apart from maybe once or twice, so I may have been just a tad early.

The whole reason I posted in the first place is because I know that I'm hyper focused on it and my judgement on a video isn't reliable that way. So in that way both of your comments that you didn't see anything unusual were really valuable as that means that there is a fair chance that he is doing better.

Also, sorry if I'm rambling 😇, my head is a mess.

 

[DogRun]

Eliminating pain and seeing what happens behaviourally is a great idea. Librela is a bit tricky in this regard because a) it only tackles pain due to osteoarthritis and b) because it seems is works great for some dogs, but doesn't really do much for others (I gather from studies and anecdotal evidence). That said, our dog (13+) does great on it. We were concerned about the long term use of NSAIDS and decided to give this a try, and we feel we see a big difference both physically and behaviourally. Lasts about 6 weeks in our case, which is on the longer side. Have been using it for about a year.

 

[emeraldecho]

I wouldn't quite call the gait normal, but neither is it that unusual.

The tail seems to be held stiffly as a counterbalance - which I've seen before while walking a dog who was in pain from late-stage cancer - and the shorter steps remind me of a horse I saw years ago whose hooves were sensitive after having been trimmed a bit too short.

The hocks and pasterns also seem to have an unusual amount of lateral movement - but that could just be from how the dog is moving and looking around in the video. If you were asking about a horse, I'd suggest having someone film them at a trot because it's inherently a more regular gait and they're less likely to be looking around at a faster, more engaging pace. Admittedly, I'm not sure how well that holds true with dogs. Best of luck.

 

[Chesterandfam]

Eliminating pain and seeing what happens behaviourally is a great idea.

Please tell this to our orthopedist 😂. I wrote him an e-mail today telling him about both the physical symptoms (which I may have to rectify a bit if he doesn't show the weird gait tomorrow either) and the way we have seen his behavior change, asking him how he wants to carry on. I got an e-mail back telling me he didn't link the behavior changes to the medication, and to seek out behavioral help for that. Besides us already being involved with a specialist for two years, all I wanted to know was if he wants to try a second jab which I still don't know now.

We are aware that it just tackles the osteoarthritis so it will only tell us if the problem comes from the HD/arthritis combo. The plan if it does turn out to not work, is to have an MRI taken and look for another cause. And I've not seen much studies (just read up a bit on it) but have seen some horror stories and some "true miracles" in stories told online. We're just going to follow the lead of the specialist and see where we end up.
I can imagine being concerned about the NSAID's. Chester really didn't do well on them (we tried both galliprant and corporal). Didn't do anything for his symptoms and the severity of his reactivity was through the roof. Glad to hear that it is working out so well for you! I really hope it does catch on for us and the changes we've noticed are either going to pass completely or stay manageable.

I wouldn't quite call the gait normal, but neither is it that unusual.

The tail seems to be held stiffly as a counterbalance - which I've seen before while walking a dog who was in pain from late-stage cancer - and the shorter steps remind me of a horse I saw years ago whose hooves were sensitive after having been trimmed a bit too short.

The hocks and pasterns also seem to have an unusual amount of lateral movement - but that could just be from how the dog is moving and looking around in the video. If you were asking about a horse, I'd suggest having someone film them at a trot because it's inherently a more regular gait and they're less likely to be looking around at a faster, more engaging pace. Admittedly, I'm not sure how well that holds true with dogs. Best of luck.

Thank you for your thorough observation. Some of what you've mentioned is what we notice too, I didn't see the tail yet though. I don't know if a trot would give a better picture, I personally have more trouble seeing anything that way but I do not have a trained eye at all.

If you are interested I could put together some clips that I've gathered from before the injection, but I only have one where we tried to get him to walk straight and the rest is more with him sniffing and walking around while doing so.

In any way, thank you! I'm sure we'll end up somewhere.

 

[ossodiseppia]

Your dog has quite the interesting swagger. Videos showing him/her from each side will probably show more than ones from the rear. I don't see anything noticeable.

My 16.5 year old Cocker has OA in his right elbow. We have been going up to CSU (the veterinary teaching hospital) for rehab (in people it's called PT). They offer a gait analysis. They have a long mat with pressure sensors. They walk the dog along the length of the mat and gather data. They are able to compute the percentage of body weight that is placed on each leg,

For some reason, I cannot post any imagery or links. So, I cannot share my data. The folks are the University are industry leaders, as far as I am concerned. They have lots of data and information. I have adjusted my expectations based on the information they have provided. The first gait analysis showed that he was putting 45% of his body weight on his front left leg. Target range is somewhere around 26 to 33 percent. The last test, he was at 36% body weight on that front left leg. This is good improvement.

Murphy has had some joint injections, but none really had any sort of lasting affect. The rehab they do on him has had the most impact. We are working with a wonderful lady who came from the people world and is now working with four legged animals. She is really, really good at what she does.

Sasha A. Foster

Canine physical therapy is not just a profession, it’s a lifestyle. Join The Art of Canine Physical Therapy for education, resources and lifestyle that will help your professional life thrive.

www.artofcaninept.com

There may be some things you can do at home with your dog. It sounds like you are very invested in your dogs care. I encourage you to look into Sasha's website.

Maybe there is someone near you that offers physical therapy for canines.

 

[Chesterandfam]

Your dog has quite the interesting swagger. Videos showing him/her from each side will probably show more than ones from the rear. I don't see anything noticeable.

My 16.5 year old Cocker has OA in his right elbow. We have been going up to CSU (the veterinary teaching hospital) for rehab (in people it's called PT). They offer a gait analysis. They have a long mat with pressure sensors. They walk the dog along the length of the mat and gather data. They are able to compute the percentage of body weight that is placed on each leg,

For some reason, I cannot post any imagery or links. So, I cannot share my data. The folks are the University are industry leaders, as far as I am concerned. They have lots of data and information. I have adjusted my expectations based on the information they have provided. The first gait analysis showed that he was putting 45% of his body weight on his front left leg. Target range is somewhere around 26 to 33 percent. The last test, he was at 36% body weight on that front left leg. This is good improvement.

Murphy has had some joint injections, but none really had any sort of lasting affect. The rehab they do on him has had the most impact. We are working with a wonderful lady who came from the people world and is now working with four legged animals. She is really, really good at what she does.

Sasha A. Foster

Canine physical therapy is not just a profession, it’s a lifestyle. Join The Art of Canine Physical Therapy for education, resources and lifestyle that will help your professional life thrive.

www.artofcaninept.com

There may be some things you can do at home with your dog. It sounds like you are very invested in your dogs care. I encourage you to look into Sasha's website.

Maybe there is someone near you that offers physical therapy for canines.

Haha, he's a bit all over the place which makes it a bit hard to see. Maybe I'll post some other clips later on where the thing we've been trying the Librela for is just a tiny bit more obvious, and where we also had a side view. Though I don't see that much off with him from the side myself.

I have heard of the pressure mats before, though the nearest animal hospital doesn't have this technology and the one 2 hours away from here neither I believe. We are considering physiotherapy or aqua therapy once we've got sorted if he indeed is in pain or not, just to hopefully get some more stability in those back legs. I hope that they are also able to give us some pointers on home exercises specifically for him.

I will look into the website you've sent though!

Also wanted to wish you good luck with Murphy. Sounds like you've made quite the difference for him!

 

[ossodiseppia]

We do not have Librela in the US, yet. It's not been approved. A friend who lives in Norfolk put her dog on it and has noticed improvement. If you read some of the blurbs on the trial, you'll see that slightly less than 50% of owners noticed improvement.

I think if you can find someone that offers rehab, it will help your dog. The folk at the University work Murphy every week. They stretch his joints working the ligaments and tendons. Here's a picture of him on the mat

Honestly, I wanted better results. The folks at the University are pretty pleased with what they have seen. We also have the data to back up what we "think we see".

Keep us posted on what you do and how it works out.

 

[May Bell]

His knee (right back -road side) goes out and if I'm being knit picky he looks heavy on his left front leg. He walks with a roll.. I'm not sure if your dogs breed does this. My OES walk like this minus the right knee coming out... I believe it's called a bear walk

 

[Chesterandfam]

We do not have Librela in the US, yet. It's not been approved. A friend who lives in Norfolk put her dog on it and has noticed improvement. If you read some of the blurbs on the trial, you'll see that slightly less than 50% of owners noticed improvement.

I think if you can find someone that offers rehab, it will help your dog. The folk at the University work Murphy every week. They stretch his joints working the ligaments and tendons. Here's a picture of him on the mat

View attachment 257077

Honestly, I wanted better results. The folks at the University are pretty pleased with what they have seen. We also have the data to back up what we "think we see".

Keep us posted on what you do and how it works out.

Yeah, to be honest it does still give me a bit of a shady feeling. The way the prescribing vets are doing about it that is. I've read a story where it somehow accelerated a degenerative issue in a dog and it was dead in two weeks after the second jab, then I've also read stories where it has helped dogs that were hardly able to get around at all anymore live up like they were experiencing second puppyhood. There's an English Librela experiences on Facebook, though the vibe is "scaring each other" on there, and I feel like some people forget that the issues they are seeing CAN be purely because their dog has started using muscles it hasn't in a long while. The Dutch one is a bit more fair in that regard, but there are also mixed results.
In lots of experiences vets seem to be very touchy when discussing possible side effects. Like I mentioned above somewhere, ours is very quick to push it completely onto "just a behavioral issue" even though we know this dog trough and trough and we know there is a relation with the injection somewhere. I'm not saying they are side effects per se, but I feel that it's a shame that he doesn't want to take it on board. I've heard more people mention this.

We'll be sure to be on the lookout for someone that offers rehab. Though I want to wait with it until we know if he's in pain or not. I'm still not sure either way about that.

In what regard do you want to see more improvement? Is she limping or still struggling at this point?

I'll keep updating every once in a while for sure!

 

[Chesterandfam]

His knee (right back -road side) goes out and if I'm being knit picky he looks heavy on his left front leg. He walks with a roll.. I'm not sure if your dogs breed does this. My OES walk like this minus the right knee coming out... I believe it's called a bear walk

The thing with his knee coming out is exactly what I see too! I can't unsee it anymore, which makes it hard for me to make any judgement on how bad it is compared to earlier. This video shows it a while back, it's a clip from the video we showed the orthopedist. It's a bit more obvious in that one I think. And the one in the snow shows another thing he does only sometimes.

http://imgur.com/a/ds7ezuS

http://imgur.com/ve1qymu

I'm not really sure what you mean with the walking with a roll. I tried to look it up online but turned up empty handed.

 

[ossodiseppia]

I just noticed the side walk is cobble stone. That's a pretty irregular surface. I wonder if that might be causing what @May Bell is seeing.

 

[May Bell]

When I was young I had a dog who had a knee (back right ), I wrapped his knee with athletic tape everytime we went on a walk. He'd get excited when he'd see the tape because it meant a walk. We also got him a kid swimming pool for therapy ( the pool that comes to an adults waist). Eventually it healed and he did not need surgery. This was a torn acl (it was not a complete tare) an ER vet accidently did while examining him.

Not sure if this will help in your situation but wanted to mention it incase it does