Dog Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
We have owned the puppy for 5 days.

I have a few questions regarding socialization, crate training and house training. I'll have a post for each topic so its not an overly long wall of text.

Crate training - When a puppy starts whining in the crate, I have read that you wait for him to stop, then praise and give treats to reward silence, What im not sure is how long should the silence go on before we actually apply positive reinforcement? I read one article saying 5 seconds, some saying a few minutes. When we have tried waiting for minutes, there are usually 30 second intervals of silence, then it starts again. The longest we have waited for him to stop completely is 5 minutes. of course, he never stopped completely, so we end up counting 5-10 seconds of silence before treating him and letting him out. Im also a bit concerned if this happens too many times (Him whining in crate) that he will have a negative association with the crate, since form what i have read, whining in the crate indicates us taking things too fast? Which just thinking about now, i think we may have with some steps. For example, my mom leaving our dogs sight when hes locked in the crate, and then waiting for him to stop whining. (mom in the kitchen, crate in the living room)

Also, 2 days ago my parents let him on the couch, he has begun to sleep there around 8-10 pm range. He also tends to sleep in spots around the house during day time, usually close to me or my parents. He does sometimes go back into the crate after sleeping on the floor for a bit. Im just wondering if any of this is interfering with crate training. Should he always have his naps inside the crate?

In general, he does sleep in his crate. Sometimes during the day, always during the night (because im in the living room from 11 to 5 am) He starts whining when we close the crate door, even when hes about to fall asleep or clearly tired during morning/afternoon, or was just inside playing with toys. We can only really close it when hes sleeping or about to at night, even then, we have to stay very close, right at the gate.

Im just wondering if some of this is normal and will be stop naturally, or if we aren't doing something properly, or both.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,832 Posts
Please don't leave him to cry in the crate. Crying means he is distressed, and that means the crate is not the happy place you need it to be. Leaving a dog to cry is actually old fashioned advice and the dogs that stop do so because they have given up hope you are going to help them, not because they suddenly realise everything is ok.

It is an extreme example but in trauma victims it is the silent ones who are most damaged.

This is the best guide to crate training I have ever seen. It was written by Emma Judson who is a behaviourist who specialises in separation anxiety. Have a read and please come back with any questions you have.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
For socialization, we haven't really done much. we've carried him around the neighborhood, introduced him to our neighborhood cat, and a few kids have come up. Problem is, im not sure any of these were positive socialization experiences.. My dad carried him around our neighborhood all the way to the street, a kid ran to our puppy, a dog walking by barked at our dog and tried to run to him when we were just outside our sliding door, and my mom bathed him on the second day, he clearly wanted out. he is now more reluctant to hang outside our sliding door, hesitant to go in our washroom, and is scared of moving cars. The last 2 im not sure was a direct result of his experiences, because only today did i try to walk him in our neighborhood parking. Still, How do we correct this? in general im wondering how do you socialize a puppy if they're scared of said thing you are socializing them to? We were told by the vet not to comfort them, at least pertaining to other dogs, but does that also apply to the other things mentioned?

Our initial reason for not socializing ( At least in terms of walking him around as opposed to carrying) is that he's only had his 1st parvo/distemper vaccinations.) But we did visit our local vet today and said it was safe to walk him in places that don't have a lot of dog traffic. But we do live in a complex with quite a few dog owners, granted our local vet is right beside said complex, still, my mom is still hesitant to walk our dog around the neighborhood. Im wondering if carrying our dog to places is sufficient socialization? It's also hard to meet the socialization criteria, we aren't friends with any of our neighbors (Not that we aren't friendly to each other) very few stores allow dogs, and im struggling to think of outdoor places that don't have a fair amount of dog traffic. By the time he has his complete vaccination the window for socialization is closed, so we can't simply wait for that as well. One saving grace is puppy classes (Still up in the air whether we'll actually attend) but that in itself doesn't sound like enough.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
564 Posts
Have you considered Not using a crate at all? It’s very unnatural for a dog to be locked up in a small cage and it can cause a lot of stress and damage to the dog.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
564 Posts
For socialization, we haven't really done much. we've carried him around the neighborhood, introduced him to our neighborhood cat, and a few kids have come up. Problem is, im not sure any of these were positive socialization experiences.. My dad carried him around our neighborhood all the way to the street, a kid ran to our puppy, a dog walking by barked at our dog and tried to run to him when we were just outside our sliding door, and my mom bathed him on the second day, he clearly wanted out. he is now more reluctant to hang outside our sliding door, hesitant to go in our washroom, and is scared of moving cars. The last 2 im not sure was a direct result of his experiences, because only today did i try to walk him in our neighborhood parking. Still, How do we correct this? in general im wondering how do you socialize a puppy if they're scared of said thing you are socializing them to? We were told by the vet not to comfort them, at least pertaining to other dogs, but does that also apply to the other things mentioned?

Our initial reason for not socializing ( At least in terms of walking him around as opposed to carrying) is that he's only had his 1st parvo/distemper vaccinations.) But we did visit our local vet today and said it was safe to walk him in places that don't have a lot of dog traffic. But we do live in a complex with quite a few dog owners, granted our local vet is right beside said complex, still, my mom is still hesitant to walk our dog around the neighborhood. Im wondering if carrying our dog to places is sufficient socialization? It's also hard to meet the socialization criteria, we aren't friends with any of our neighbors (Not that we aren't friendly to each other) very few stores allow dogs, and im struggling to think of outdoor places that don't have a fair amount of dog traffic. By the time he has his complete vaccination the window for socialization is closed, so we can't simply wait for that as well. One saving grace is puppy classes (Still up in the air whether we'll actually attend) but that in itself doesn't sound like enough.
How is he showing fear? No, you shouldn’t coddle the dog in the means of picking him up making a big fuzz of it, since this will reinsure the dog that the situation is in fact dangerous. However you can still support the dog in those situations.

What’s important to remember with socialization is that you want to achieve a dog that doesn’t care about passing dogs or people. It’s not just about getting the dog to properly interact with dogs and people but to be comfortable and careless around them. So for example it’s a better socialization exercise to take the dog near a dog park and train the dog to be relaxed and not care about the other dogs than to actually let the dog play inside the dog park. Building up expectations and anticipation that the dog always should greet or play with other dogs is very stressful and will cause problems.

A good exercise when meeting dogs on a walk is to just stop and talk to the owner for a moment while the dogs doesn’t get to, or have to, interact. This is also something you can train with just people. Stay and talk to people but don’t let them interact with the dog.

Of course the dog should be able to meet and interact with both humans and dogs but they don’t need the stress to have to greet everybody they see.

I don’t know where you should or shouldn’t go with a puppy that’s not fully vaccinated but if possible I would train him on environmental training. Go to the city, cafes, car rides, bus rides etc.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,832 Posts
Can I just clarify something your vet said about not comforting, and what @SunFlower said about not making a fuss (vets are good at medical things but most are not behaviourists or nutritionists).

You don't want to make a fuss over things your dog is unsure of, Sunflower is absolutely right because you dont want your dog to think it is indeed something to be fearful of. Just jolly him along with encouraging happy tones.

But, if your dog is truly afraid rather than just unsure, being there for him and comforting him is fine, if you were afraid, someone holding your hand or giving you a hug would reassure you, wouldn't it.

In fact, you cannot reinforce fear through rewarding interventions. If you were afraid of snakes, me rewarding you with $10, or chocolate, or a hug will not make you more afraid.

So if he is truly afraid, be there for him so he learns that you have his back and will take care of him and that in turn will help him be confident because he can rely on you to take care of things.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Please don't leave him to cry in the crate. Crying means he is distressed, and that means the crate is not the happy place you need it to be. Leaving a dog to cry is actually old fashioned advice and the dogs that stop do so because they have given up hope you are going to help them, not because they suddenly realise everything is ok.

It is an extreme example but in trauma victims it is the silent ones who are most damaged.

This is the best guide to crate training I have ever seen. It was written by Emma Judson who is a behaviourist who specialises in separation anxiety. Have a read and please come back with any questions you have.

Please don't leave him to cry in the crate. Crying means he is distressed, and that means the crate is not the happy place you need it to be. Leaving a dog to cry is actually old fashioned advice and the dogs that stop do so because they have given up hope you are going to help them, not because they suddenly realise everything is ok.

It is an extreme example but in trauma victims it is the silent ones who are most damaged.

This is the best guide to crate training I have ever seen. It was written by Emma Judson who is a behaviourist who specialises in separation anxiety. Have a read and please come back with any questions you have.

I do want to clarify that the instructions we followed did not say to wait for them to whine like what my mum and I did in some instances. Only that if he does end up whining, that is what you do, otherwise he'll know to whine to get what he wants. We just skipped a few steps and rushed things, which is why he ended up whining.

the other instances he started whining was a step we got stuck on was when it told us to close the door the duration he eats his meals in the crate then open it immediately when hes done, then gradually increasing the time you leave it closed after eating. Doesn't last 10 seconds in the crate after eating before he starts, and according to the article we dial it back.


Since you sent me a link to a behaviorist who specializes in seperation anxiety, is our puppy showing signs? I know the term is self explanatory and our puppy follows my mom everywhere (though that seems to be decreasing) and our pup obviously at this point in time needs someone in sight or near to sleep, even though there are moments when he wakes up, sees us leaving to the washroom and goes back to sleep. I guess im just wondering how much is this is simply normal puppy behaviour that's still acclimating to a new environment, loss of parents and litter mates, and new rules? And not signs of possible seperation anxiety developing?

But yeah, I do like the article you sent me, more in depth than the ones i've been reading. The obvious differences between the 2 is yours doesn't introduce shutting the door until much later in the stage. I'll probably read it again, i feel a bit overwhelmed i have to admit and it doesn't help when behaviorists differ in a few things and having to choose which one to follow.. just in general as well. Also, since the article doesn't introduce closing the door until one of the last steps, well I have already done that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Have you considered Not using a crate at all? It’s very unnatural for a dog to be locked up in a small cage and it can cause a lot of stress and damage to the dog.
Well from what i read, general consensus seems to be it is beneficial. You have dog sites like akc, humane society and paws endorsing it when done correctly, which we weren't doing.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,832 Posts
Well, yes he is whining to get what he wants - that's to be out of the crate and with you. So, his crate is not his safe happy place. I think there is a difference between a puppy whining because he is distressed and an adult dog pestering you to play (there are other ways to train alternatives to that). Your puppy is an infant, he isn't whining because he wants to pester you, he needs you at this stage. And, while I still prefer Emma's guide, the other articles you link also don't advocate leaving him to cry.

I don't have any reason to think your puppy has separation anxiety at this stage.

And, there's a saying that the only thing two behaviourists will agree on is that a third one is wrong! But seriously, there are variations in approach but then, you also have to bear in mind that every dog is different. Some dogs will get to the closed door sooner than others. I still suggest you go back to leaving it open so that you don't make the crate a scary horrid place.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
How is he showing fear? No, you shouldn’t coddle the dog in the means of picking him up making a big fuzz of it, since this will reinsure the dog that the situation is in fact dangerous. However you can still support the dog in those situations.

What’s important to remember with socialization is that you want to achieve a dog that doesn’t care about passing dogs or people. It’s not just about getting the dog to properly interact with dogs and people but to be comfortable and careless around them. So for example it’s a better socialization exercise to take the dog near a dog park and train the dog to be relaxed and not care about the other dogs than to actually let the dog play inside the dog park. Building up expectations and anticipation that the dog always should greet or play with other dogs is very stressful and will cause problems.

A good exercise when meeting dogs on a walk is to just stop and talk to the owner for a moment while the dogs doesn’t get to, or have to, interact. This is also something you can train with just people. Stay and talk to people but don’t let them interact with the dog.

Of course the dog should be able to meet and interact with both humans and dogs but they don’t need the stress to have to greet everybody they see.

I don’t know where you should or shouldn’t go with a puppy that’s not fully vaccinated but if possible I would train him on environmental training. Go to the city, cafes, car rides, bus rides etc.
Just today a garbage man approached us to greet our puppy and he was wagging his whole body. Im just wondering what if our dog is naturally receptive once people or dogs approach, that doesn't seem to be a bad thing but is opposite to the comfortable and careless attitude. Im just guessing, but are the problems you're referring to is that our puppy might want to play with everyone they see even though the moment might not call for it, leaving them stressed that they're unable to play?

Well, some dogs that walk by end up having a staring contest with our puppy, one instance a dog was slowly approaching closer, our puppy was in the house looking outside the sliding door and eventually he took of under the kitchen, I wasn't there though so I didn't see his body language. He does the same with cars driving by the house when im walking him outside, he doesn't take off and pull the leash to get away, just runs away until a certain point and looks back. Now that im thinking about it though fear is probably too strong a word, seems more like healthy cautiousness, but I don;t know.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,832 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Also one important thing, we changed the crate today because I personally thought it was too large, now im thinking the change is a bit too small, it's more than long enough vertically but horizontally his body is longer. The other one was long enough both ways. What do you guys think? Should we change it again? And general thoughts on if we can improve some things? The cardboard isn't ideal but my dad can't find a divider of our cages size. So he actually dismantled the top of the crate and used it as the divider. Should we cover the top of the crate with some cardboard as well as the other side? Sorry i don't really have better pictures of the old crate. it's the one with the big fluffy bed.

Also im wondering if too many changes will interfere with crate training.
247440
247441
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Why would you want to make it smaller?
Well I read it should be just long and wide enough for his body to touch without having to scrunch up, there was a bit more space than just long and wide enough. Also something about it being too big defeating the purpose of crate training
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,832 Posts
Ok, are you thinking the purpose of crate training is toilet training, as opposed to keeping your puppy and your belongings safe from each other?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
toilet training is the reason i suggested a smaller crate. But it's not the only reason we are crate training. The second though didn't even occur to me.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
1,832 Posts
Crates can help with toilet training in as much as the dog will prefer not to toilet where he sleeps, but they are not a solution in themselves - if your puppy has to toilet, he has to toilet and the smaller the crate, the more likely he will have to lie in his mess. And that is unpleasant for him even more than it is for you. He is a baby, he simply won't have control to hold his toilet - human babies are in diapers for months remember, before they learn and develop the physical control to hold.

Toilet training happens when two things come together - the ABILITY to hold the toilet, along with the DESIRE to hold it in order to earn the reward for doing so.

Ideally you want him to not be in a position where he needs to toilet before you have him outdoors, so that every toilet is outside - as far as possible, there will be accidents! So set him up to succeed by taking him out even more than he needs; for example every 45 minutes to an hour and always after sleeping, eating, playing. The time between a puppy realising they need to toilet, and being unable to hold that toilet, is zero. So your aim is to have him outside before he can't help himself. When he toilets outdoors make a huge fuss (never mind the neighbours, act like outdoor toileting is the best thing you have ever seen) and reward him with a high value treat. Do that immediately, don't make him come to you for the treat so he is clear that it's for toileting and not for coming to you. The idea is that he eventually wants to earn the treat enough to hold the toilet until he is outside - once he is physically able to control his toileting obviously. As he is actually performing the toilet you can introduce words he can associate with it (like 'do weewee' and 'busy busy') that later when he is reliably trained you can use these to tell him when you want him to toilet.

If you take him out and he doesn't toilet after five minutes, bring him in but don't take your eyes off him. Any hint of a toilet inside, scoop him up and get him out fast. If he doesn't try to toilet indoors (great!) take him out a second time and repeat until you do get outside toilets. You need the outside toilet to happen SO that you can reward SO that he learns.

If he has an accident inside don't react at all. If you get annoyed he may learn to fear your reaction and avoid you if he needs to toilet (by going off and toileting out of sight) - the opposite of what you want. Dogs cant make the distinction between you being annoyed at him TOILETING, as opposed to toileting INDOORS. Take a rolled up newspaper and hit yourself over the head for not having taken him outside in time. Not when he is there though in case you scare him. Then clean the area with an enzymatic cleaner to remove any trace of smell that might attract him back to the spot.

Indoors if you see him circling or scratching the floor, that can sometimes precede toileting so get him out fast.

Overnight he is unlikely to be able to control his toilet as his little bladder and bowel are underdeveloped and not strong enough to hold all night so set your alarm to take him out at least once if not twice during the night.

I don't know if you are using them, but I really don't like puppy pads - they give mixed messages about whether it's ok to toilet indoors and confuse the puppy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Crates can help with toilet training in as much as the dog will prefer not to toilet where he sleeps, but they are not a solution in themselves - if your puppy has to toilet, he has to toilet and the smaller the crate, the more likely he will have to lie in his mess. And that is unpleasant for him even more than it is for you. He is a baby, he simply won't have control to hold his toilet - human babies are in diapers for months remember, before they learn and develop the physical control to hold.

Toilet training happens when two things come together - the ABILITY to hold the toilet, along with the DESIRE to hold it in order to earn the reward for doing so.

Ideally you want him to not be in a position where he needs to toilet before you have him outdoors, so that every toilet is outside - as far as possible, there will be accidents! So set him up to succeed by taking him out even more than he needs; for example every 45 minutes to an hour and always after sleeping, eating, playing. The time between a puppy realising they need to toilet, and being unable to hold that toilet, is zero. So your aim is to have him outside before he can't help himself. When he toilets outdoors make a huge fuss (never mind the neighbours, act like outdoor toileting is the best thing you have ever seen) and reward him with a high value treat. Do that immediately, don't make him come to you for the treat so he is clear that it's for toileting and not for coming to you. The idea is that he eventually wants to earn the treat enough to hold the toilet until he is outside - once he is physically able to control his toileting obviously. As he is actually performing the toilet you can introduce words he can associate with it (like 'do weewee' and 'busy busy') that later when he is reliably trained you can use these to tell him when you want him to toilet.

If you take him out and he doesn't toilet after five minutes, bring him in but don't take your eyes off him. Any hint of a toilet inside, scoop him up and get him out fast. If he doesn't try to toilet indoors (great!) take him out a second time and repeat until you do get outside toilets. You need the outside toilet to happen SO that you can reward SO that he learns.

If he has an accident inside don't react at all. If you get annoyed he may learn to fear your reaction and avoid you if he needs to toilet (by going off and toileting out of sight) - the opposite of what you want. Dogs cant make the distinction between you being annoyed at him TOILETING, as opposed to toileting INDOORS. Take a rolled up newspaper and hit yourself over the head for not having taken him outside in time. Not when he is there though in case you scare him. Then clean the area with an enzymatic cleaner to remove any trace of smell that might attract him back to the spot.

Indoors if you see him circling or scratching the floor, that can sometimes precede toileting so get him out fast.

Overnight he is unlikely to be able to control his toilet as his little bladder and bowel are underdeveloped and not strong enough to hold all night so set your alarm to take him out at least once if not twice during the night.

I don't know if you are using them, but I really don't like puppy pads - they give mixed messages about whether it's ok to toilet indoors and confuse the puppy.
Yeah we usually take him out to pee every 2 hours, and we are with him every day so we try to pay attention to signs of wanting to pee.
we have been taking him to pee outside during night, from 11 pm to 5 am for the past day until now he has pees 3 times in that time span, I stay up all night and wait for him to wake up though. Except yesterday, he only peed at 12 and another at 4, unusual for him since he didn't hold for longer than 2 hours, and just tonight for some reason there was a 6 hour gap between his last pee and most recent one, from what I know, he's only 9 weeks and shouldnt be able to hold that long, and it's not like he slept through those entire 6 hours, he was awake at 9 and just 45 minutes ago peed at 3 am. The crate was also open all day. And another thing I noticed too, for the past 2 days he has stopped in the hallway and lied down when im about to take him outside to pee. He comes outside eventually but it was automatic the first few days, that has also started happening during day time where we will deal with a bit of what I assume is resistance.

But yeah we'll try taking him out more often and not always waiting for him to show signs.



On an unrelated note to toilet training, he stayed in his crate the entire 15 minutes it took for me to clean his urine, im not sure he would of wanted to stay had i closed the gate. I was sometimes out of site too, going into the washroom (granted he did see me go in) but he's whined from me being far closer and in sight seemingly because the crate was closed. Showered him with kibble every time i came back for more paper towels. You mention high quality treats, kibble isn't that, but that's what we've been using to reward him with everything really.

And no, we aren't using pads.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
564 Posts
Well from what i read, general consensus seems to be it is beneficial. You have dog sites like akc, humane society and paws endorsing it when done correctly, which we weren't doing.
There’s a lot of conflicting opinions regarding crating. According to me it’s outrageous that these, what should be credible sources and dog experts, are promoting crating the way they do.

Where I live it’s illegal to crate your dog and due to the degree of negative effects on the dog it’s considered to be animal cruelty. So it really depends on the different dog cultures and beliefs.

What I’d like to consider is if it benefits the dog. How would the dog benefit from being locked up in a small cage? Or is it just an easy and comfortable solution for us humans since it allows us to avoid responsibility to properly train and take care of the dog. My thought on this is that it’s beneficial and comfortable for the human and therefore also have become a popular method. To consider the negative effects for the dog would result in higher demands on us humans and therefore it’s not explored or exposed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
564 Posts
Just today a garbage man approached us to greet our puppy and he was wagging his whole body. Im just wondering what if our dog is naturally receptive once people or dogs approach, that doesn't seem to be a bad thing but is opposite to the comfortable and careless attitude. Im just guessing, but are the problems you're referring to is that our puppy might want to play with everyone they see even though the moment might not call for it, leaving them stressed that they're unable to play?

Well, some dogs that walk by end up having a staring contest with our puppy, one instance a dog was slowly approaching closer, our puppy was in the house looking outside the sliding door and eventually he took of under the kitchen, I wasn't there though so I didn't see his body language. He does the same with cars driving by the house when im walking him outside, he doesn't take off and pull the leash to get away, just runs away until a certain point and looks back. Now that im thinking about it though fear is probably too strong a word, seems more like healthy cautiousness, but I don;t know.
It’s not unusual if he is naturally receptive to new humans or dogs (he appears to be some retriever?). However you still want to achieve a dog that knows when and when not to interact or care about other dogs or people. An overly social dog that wants to greet everybody can be at least as problematic as a dog that finds other dogs repelling and shows fear/anger. And it causes stress for the dog.

So to teach your dog to be carefree around dogs and humans and to only interact when you ask him to, will favor you both.

It’s not weird that a puppy is cautious in new situations. However you need to be careful so that this doesn’t turn into fear. That’s why proper socialization and environmental training is so important.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top