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Fact or fiction...Pitbulls

16572 Views 64 Replies 24 Participants Last post by  SpicyBulldog
I have spent quite a few days this last week researching Pit Bulls and everything related, including what dogs fall into the mix.
After sifting through thousands of articles and social media attempts at trying to convince one way or the other, I have become deafened by both sides of the debate by senseless, shortsighted, and closed minded information.
I am on the fence if it is at all possible to have an objective and informative resource to get to the bottom of the hysteria regarding all things Pit bull, and I think if it can be achieved, this may be the place.

I ask that all participants keep an open mind and stick to documented facts from "reliable" sources.
Personal experiences can alter the objectiveness I am hoping for but welcome these experiences if the breed is not generalized by this experience.
eg...
Pitbulls are not bad, my kid plays with ours everyday and has never been bitten.
Or...
Pitbulls should be banned because my family member was attacked!

I would like to get to the bottom of the hype. What is true and what is fiction.
In regards to questions, it would be great to have answers backed up with a source so that the source can be verified or challenged as fact or fiction by a source.

BSL
Is this a last resort or is it a case of enough is enough?

Off leash/on leash/muzzle
Restriction of breed, look, character, or does it matter?

Pit bull to dog bite
Crazy/untrained Pit bull or defensive attributes?

Got a question? Ask.
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~~From the inside looking out~~
My dog is an 11 month old bully breed mix (it's been argued weather boxer or American Bulldog), one parent is a pure mutt. She could easily be labeled "pit bull mix" by shelters and/or general public because of her appearance.

~ Negative aspects of my baby, and I will be painfully honest...
At times overly protective at the sight of perceived threats (the rake leaning on a tree for example)... will growl at shadows in the dark... given the opportunity would chase and most likely hurt a cat... VERY strong... Gets bored easily while training... dislikes men she does not know... gets WAY TOO excited to see us after being out for an hour and has knocked the kids over

~ Positive traits.... Again, I will be painfully honest by not exaggerating.
Easy to train in short lessons... naturally submissive (but most of her siblings had more dominant or independent personalities)... protective... checks on family members during thunder storms.... sympathetic... inquisitive... loves to greet new people or dogs... loyal... generally well behaved (but that one goes for any young dog with consistent positive training).

From the outside looking:
Down the road from me there is a guy who has a history of selling drugs and dog fighting. He has "pit bull" type dogs that he regularly breeds. These dogs, bark at people walking by, posture threateningly, and look dangerous. I do not know these dogs personally. They might be very nice dogs that happen to be protective, but two of the dogs have heavy chains attached to trees and one has a muzzle all the time.

~~~ That is my personal experience with what society would call a "pit bull". I tried to keep opinion out, but Mauka is my baby so you can decide what is or what isn't objective.
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From the outside looking:
Down the road from me there is a guy who has a history of selling drugs and dog fighting. He has "pit bull" type dogs that he regularly breeds. These dogs, bark at people walking by, posture threateningly, and look dangerous. I do not know these dogs personally. They might be very nice dogs that happen to be protective, but two of the dogs have heavy chains attached to trees and one has a muzzle all the time.
You should report this to the Humane Society if you know he's fighting dogs and/or selling them for fighting.
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I agree with all of the comments. My little mutt, who I think is a terrier mix, has a personality that seems quite similar to many of the pitts I've met. She is so passionate about everything that she can be quite overwhelming at times, even though she is less than 20 pounds... I can't count how many times she's run into me at full speed or enthusiastically jumped up at me and hurt me badly with her hard head... About a year ago, I was playing with my dog using a big flirt pole, and as she chased the toy, she ran into my leg with such force that it caused my ankle to buckle and knocked me to the ground.........My dog is just so exuberant about everything. When we visit my parents, she is so excited that she runs all over the place and jumps on the bed and all over my dad's papers and is basically like a crazy dog...... I can't imagine having a giant Skipper...... If she tried some of her antics as a 40-pound dog, I don't know what I'd do.
My 60 pound 11 month old dog, Mauka, is JUST LIKE your Skipper. I had the hose out, and she ran at the water SO FAST that her mouth accidentally bumped my hand. That was three weeks ago and it is still is tender to the touch and has that sick yellow/green look of an old bruise. She runs around like a crazy thing when she's happy to see friends. She hates to hear a child cry (like when kids fuss over a toy) and will lick the kids in the face until they start laughing. OH, my goodness, Mauka IS a giant Skipper. You made me laugh!!!
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You should report this to the Humane Society if you know he's fighting dogs and/or selling them for fighting.
I have... and so has my friend who works closely with the local shelters. They say they can't do anything because there isn't any proof. :(
Every time I drive by I try to see something, but they hide evidence.

Also, in South Carolina the living standards of outside dogs is very low, and the living conditions of these dogs live is not illegal. Ridiculous in my opinion!
BSL
Is this a last resort or is it a case of enough is enough?
I think that it is really done for political reasons or in a misguided effort. The only benefit would probably be a reduced population of an overly popular breed.

Off leash/on leash/muzzle
Restriction of breed, look, character, or does it matter?
I don't think restrictions should apply. That's a form of BSL. Though I think owners should have common sense not to let their dogs run at large.

Pit bull to dog bite
Crazy/untrained Pit bull or defensive attributes?
Usually neither. You can't put bites in a neat box. Some are unstable with or without training. Some are trained to bite. This breed typically lacks defense drive.

I don't agree that they are monsters, but I do agree that they are more dog than most can handle. I don't believe it's "all in how you raise them". They are not bred to be mellow, biddable, tolerate-anything spaniels. They are terriers and can manifest all the traits that come with the territory: They are iffy with dogs, kids and small animals and can be energetic and even a bit temperamental.
People who think it's all in how you raise them are living in a fantasy world.

I find them to be biddable though as a breed they have a range. The willingness to please transfers to biddability.

Dogs and small animals yes. Kids not iffy at all. I certainly wouldn't use kids and temperamental in the same sentence. Maybe I'd say kids and tolerant, yes. Don't have any sources so it is speaking from personal experience I use to be a kid once upon a time and now I'm a mom. This breed loves attention from people and seek it from kids.

I think parents should teach kids properly. No matter what the breed. How often does it happen a dog isn't too tolerant of is pushed to the edge and has made all signs it wants to be left alone, even tries so get away from a child and parent does nothing? Not until the dog nips the kid who's pulling him by the tail.

Your question really hits home with me today as I got the news that a bully mix I had been helping to train was put down for "snapping at a child". Take that for what you will. I don't know the whole story yet, but I can't help but wonder if the story would not have ended so badly, had the dog been homed with a family that didn't have a small kid. IMO not a good fit for:

a) A dog not raised around kids (she was a rescue).
b) A terrier, a breed known to be on the mouthier, nippier side of the spectrum.
Not an ideal situation it doesn't sound like. It is unfortunate for the dog but I hope the child was okay. "Snapped at" doesn't sound like they were injured though if a next time would have been allowed it could have been different.

As to the part in bold don't know about other terriers but that is NOT a trait of the APBT. The only few times I've seen this was in Pits clearly exhibiting separation anxiety.

The bull & terrier was the originator of the pit bull (and the staffie & the bull terrier) so for it to have terrier qualities is not unusual if you think about it. And I think that's where some of the problem lies - the average joe (so not thugs & want-a-bes) get a pit bull thinking that'd it is going to be more bully [bulldog, etc.] and are just not prepared for that dogged terrier attitude.
It's true the traits are similar to those found in other terriers. I've pointed this out to people who seem to think the traits unique to the Pit Bull and cause for them to be dangerous and like no other dog. When terriers are tenacious, do keep hold, are pretty fearless and some show higher threshold for pain. ...but these are also traits of bulldogs too tough, keep hold, high pain threshold. It is one reason why Pits are referred to as bulldogs because of these traits.
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I would like to know if Breed specific laws work. I am not informed enough it seems to have an opinion and want the facts. I see so many contradicting statistics but do not know how Pit bulls seemingly become the source of instigation for these laws. Breeds that look similar can have entirely different breed traits and will be subject to these laws by a vague definition of breed like "Pit bull"
BSL is just that BS for Losers. I, thankfully, live in a province that hasn't enacted such stupidity although it's been discussed a few council meetings. BSL is the easy way out. A dog breed is causing news because it mauled someone? Ban it than obviously it will stop:eyeroll:. Dog's bite - period. Were the breeds that encompass "pit bulls" bred to not back down in a fight? Yes. However, so were German Shepherds, Doberman Pinchers, Rottweilers, Belgian Malinois, and even the Jack Russell. Ironically each have been considered "dangerous" breeds.

I don't own a pitbull, nor do I know that stats on them so I won't touch too much on their traits, however BSL is a death sentence for both bad dogs and good. For instance, your dog is a labrador/boxer cross that loves everything, has never attacked/bitten anything, and would rather jump off a building than harm a child or another animal, but someone decides it looks to "pitbull"- like therefore you have to muzzle it. People become afraid of your dog, because the muzzle denotes it's a bad dog even though it's not. Your dog gets things thrown at it in the street, people attempt to strike it while you walk down the sidewalk, scream at you and your dog, you feel scared for yourself and your dog. Your dog becomes scared too and becomes terrified of strangers, of sudden movements, of outside, and then one day your dog get's out of the gate and animal services catch it - your dog is now taken from you, thrown into a shelter for an "assessment" and determined to have the "possibility to be dangerous" because of it's "breed". You have been informed that your dog will not be released to you and instead you are given a date to for it to be euthanized unless you give up your dog and get it out of the province. And this poor dog is considered the bad? Ridiculous.

This happened to a friend of my family, her dog was the best dog ever until this happened. She now lives in Edmonton with my aunt and is recovering from a whole lot of fear issues regarding strangers who are carrying objects, walking toward her, yelling, and quick movements. But she's alive, many dogs that had similar stories occur aren't. Maize still is an amazing dog for what she's endured.

BSL doesn't stop bad people from creating bad dogs, no matter the breed. It also doesn't prevent stupidity in regards to dog behaviour, proper breed selection for owners, and ownership of human error. It does however, murder good dogs just because they either are born the wrong breed or look too bully like. It only works to punish the good dog owners.

Government needs to spend more time and effort on teaching responsible ownership, positive training methods, proper selection of breeds, making new laws to prevent BYBers, dog fighting rings, dog abuse, etc. instead. Heck, if I had it my way, I'd force prospective puppy buyers to have to go through a pre-adoption class and be forced to take a test before they even get to sniff a dog.

Oh, I've dug up so articles from the AVMA that discuss why BSL doesn't mitigate bite incidents.
http://nationalcanineresearchcounci... Dog Bite Risk_AVMA_FINAL w corrected URL.pdf
Breed-Specific Legislation (BSL) FAQ I NCRC

Sorry of the long response, the mention of BSL makes me mad :mad:
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KayWilson, your story hit home for me. What Maize went through is one of the things I fear. My 1/4 Am. Bulldog would be labeled "pit bull" by others too.
I've met pitbulls whom I found quite nice and pitbulls I wouldn't go near. In both cases, my reaction was based on behavior, not breed. Having had one knock over an older, small dog of mine repeatedly as we walked our regular walk route a couple of years ago (after slamming into me so hard that I ended up with a slightly injured wrist on his way to get to my dog), I am definitely more cautious around them when with my leashed twenty pound dog. To be perfectly fair, the same week, I was walking the exact same small dog and another pit bull came out of nowhere, just as the first hand, and I put myself between that dog and my dog and told it, in no uncertain terms, to stay away from us, and it immediately hit the ground and looked as if it might cry. I apologized and it wagged its tail and looked relieved, but it did stay back and away from us when I insisted upon it. Even if it was a friendly dog, the size differential worried me, as its idea of play could have become too much for my smaller older dog, and for me, as I was recovering from shoulder surgery and had only recently gotten out of my sling.

I think the problem for pitbulls is complex. Part of it is that there are simply too many of them because they are, at the moment, a popular and profitable breed, leading to too many of them being poorly bred. Their numbers are far greater than the number of appropriate homes/owners available for them. The controversy surrounding them also leads to the two worst types of owners they could possibly have getting their hands on them: those who want them to portray a "tough" image and/or fight them and those who want to prove how unfair their reputation is but who are completely unprepared and/or ill-equipped to handle a big, strong dog with a prey drive appropriately. I was in a class with a couple who fit into the last category and their Angel (the dog's name--I'm not being sarcastic) may have been the "good dog" they kept describing her as at home, but she was not a good candidate for therapy dog training because she was definitely dog reactive. She went after everything from a toy poodle to a sizable labradoodle for no other reason than that she apparently felt they were uncomfortably close to her. They weren't any closer to her than would be normal in a training class, but it was too much for her, and her owners couldn't handle her when she got aggressive because one had a bad knee and the other a bad hip. Why they thought a big, strong, young dog was a good fit for their situation, I have no idea, and it also irked me that they kept going on about how people were so quick to misjudge pitbull behavior, when their dog kept reinforcing all the stereotypes they wanted to destroy because they couldn't handle her and didn't understand--or want to admit--that she just wasn't going to be able to pass the TDI test, as she wanted nothing to do with other dogs being within ten feet of her, and the more they kept denying that, the more miserable and reactive she was going to be. Maybe with a lot of training with an appropriate owner, she would have gotten better, but as it was, it wasn't going to work, and all they were doing was upsetting their dog and everyone else in the class, who, quite logically, didn't want their dogs near that pitbull because of its behavior, not its breed. If it had been a snarling, snapping cocker spaniel who went after other dogs, I wouldn't have wanted my dog near it either.

Honestly, for everyone's sake, including the various breeds that make up the group commonly referred to as pitbulls, I wish their popularity would start fading because if it did, dogs and people would probably be better off as then there would be fewer poorly bred pitties out there and fewer dogs in the wrong hands/homes.
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BSL is just that BS for Losers.

Government needs to spend more time and effort on teaching responsible ownership, positive training methods, proper selection of breeds, making new laws to prevent BYBers, dog fighting rings, dog abuse, etc. instead. Heck, if I had it my way, I'd force prospective puppy buyers to have to go through a pre-adoption class and be forced to take a test before they even get to sniff a dog.
Indeed BSL wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the losers.

Don't blame the people trying to do what they think will protect themselves, their dogs, and their children - blame the deadbeats, the want-a-be tough guys whom are really more wimpy than a woman with a broken fingernail hence they need a tough dog to pretend they really do have a set of balls, the criminals / druggies and literal human "scum". Those are the idiots responsible for BSL and the pit bull just got taken along for the ride.

I dealt with these "lovely" humans on a daily basis when doing security to help pay for my education. The sites I worked were intercity and in the slums / extremely run down. A lot of the times square in some gang's turf. These are the sort of places people don't waste time calling cops about; because most times the cops aren't showing up.

I learnt the street code quickly [an actual gang member / drug dealer took something of a "shine" to me you could say after one run in] and was taught how you could tell whom on the street was a "feather-less chicken". They were oftentimes hiding behind the nastiest pit bull or rottie going. Some of the neighborhoods you couldn't walk down without a pit bull or rottie or GSD type charging the fence every second or third lot going bonkers. Nothing but simple intimidation - corner such people without their dogs and you'll find them singing a completely different tune.

Remove these feather-less chickens - and the other "lovelies" on the lower scale of society - and you loss a major market for street level "pit bulls".


On that note it is NOT the government's responsibility to teach proper "ownership". Particularly when it'd be an utter waste of moneyor have you not watched some of the dog training shows on TV where the owners go home and systematically undermine the trainer's work behind closed doors [Brad Pattison's TV show for example]? While we're at it why not create a division in the government where people will chase dog owners around with a pooper scooper? Sorry but I really have no patience for people whom expect the government to hold their hands and guide them through life [hand everything over silver platter style].

A growing number of states (even regions/states) have liability insurance - some make it a finable offense (to a degree you can even face jail time if you keep getting fined) to even have something remotely resembling a pit bull if you don't have at least a minimum of $100,000 liability insurance. I think it's a dang good idea. Too many people end up getting attacked or their dogs attacked by a "pit bull" only to find out the owner is nothing but a jailbird with barely $50 to their name or does a runner and leaves the victims with a hefty bill to pay out of their own pocket... at least then someone is responsible even if the dog's owner is nothing but a loser not fit to own a fruit fly [yet alone a pit bull].


I agree with the BYB and better laws. But what is a BYB? Is it just someone whimsically breeding? Is it someone breeding dogs with no titles (either with no health testing or little health testing - or simply bred out faults from generations of working with a particular bloodline)? Is it someone that breeds working dogs (again, what is the principle to health testing?)? Is it someone that breeds dogs outside the standard? Is it someone that breeds a "fad" [a number of designer dogs are plagued with a BYB aspect]? Unfortunately, BYB breeders are not quite like a puppy mill which is sort of "cut & dry".

I mean to some Coffee is nothing but an undesirable BYB dog. He is a Yakut Laika, he came from the actual Yakut people [the "health testing" was nature and generations of breeding out weaknesses]; he is extremely healthy [my vet, 24 years experience, swears he's never seen a healthier dog]. The Yakut couldn't careless for dog show titles (and the dogs that survived were often the healthiest instead of being health tested) as I do think trying to survive ranks a little higher on the totem pole than either.


I'd force prospective puppy buyers to have to go through a pre-adoption class and be forced to take a test before they even get to sniff a dog

We don't do that with people having children and working out two methadone clinics [pharmacist] which is for narcotic / opiate addiction [and heroin amongst other drugs] I see many, many, many people that shouldn't have children. I can't say much - patient confidentially - but there's a number of children born to these people [young children] on multiple drugs already to combat the problems caused by drug abuse / alcohol abuse by mother and heavy exposure to [cig & other] smoke.



The problem is, the pit is a powerful dog and most slack jaws [thugs, criminals, losers, etc.] that own it on the street aren't fit to own a fruit fly as a pet yet alone something like a pit bull. Those fools and the BYBs that take advantage of those fools' demand for the pit bull by breeding "mangy mutts" together [as most street bred pit bulls are 90% mutt] where the criteria is they're big and nasty ... who gives a "sh*t" if the dog has the mental stability of a cracker box... are the cause for BSL.

And that's the other problem - APBT [or pedigree pit] or street pit - the "breed" has become a catch phrase for pretty much anything that looks like a bully but doesn't meet the standard of other breeds. I've had people tell me "look a pit bull" and I am looking at something that is a lab x boxer or similar.


Ask a person with little dog knowledge to point out a pit bull - they'd point to a dozen mix breeds and probably more than a few pure bloods. It's the same thing that happens with wolves & coyotes [do you know how many people say that their mix breeds (pound puppies) look like wolves & coyotes - because 90% of the time those people wouldn't know what a wolf or coyote looked like unless it was chewing on their read end].



And you find Canada "stupid" with their BSL. Try some European countries, they go nuts.
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I completely agree that so many people who own bully breeds ("pit bulls" or whatever they want to call their dog) shouldn't. A lot of them are owned by older bleeding heart rescue people who won't admit their dog has strong prey drive and may not be perfect with other dogs. They end up bringing their adult pits to dog parks and are SHOCKED when they don't do well in large groups of strange dogs! Of course the people who use them for status symbols or to look cool and/or scary are just as bad and are completely ill-equipped to own any dog, let alone a strong terrier. Believe me, when my dog sees a squirrel she is NOT messing around - she's strong!
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A growing number of states (even regions/states) have liability insurance - some make it a finable offense (to a degree you can even face jail time if you keep getting fined) to even have something remotely resembling a pit bull if you don't have at least a minimum of $100,000 liability insurance. I think it's a dang good idea. Too many people end up getting attacked or their dogs attacked by a "pit bull" only to find out the owner is nothing but a jailbird with barely $50 to their name or does a runner and leaves the victims with a hefty bill to pay out of their own pocket... at least then someone is responsible even if the dog's owner is nothing but a loser not fit to own a fruit fly [yet alone a pit bull].

I agree with the BYB and better laws. But what is a BYB? Is it just someone whimsically breeding? Is it someone breeding dogs with no titles (either with no health testing or little health testing - or simply bred out faults from generations of working with a particular bloodline)? Is it someone that breeds working dogs (again, what is the principle to health testing?)? Is it someone that breeds dogs outside the standard? Is it someone that breeds a "fad" [a number of designer dogs are plagued with a BYB aspect]? Unfortunately, BYB breeders are not quite like a puppy mill which is sort of "cut & dry".

I'd force prospective puppy buyers to have to go through a pre-adoption class and be forced to take a test before they even get to sniff a dog

We don't do that with people having children and working out two methadone clinics [pharmacist] which is for narcotic / opiate addiction [and heroin amongst other drugs] I see many, many, many people that shouldn't have children. I can't say much - patient confidentially - but there's a number of children born to these people [young children] on multiple drugs already to combat the problems caused by drug abuse / alcohol abuse by mother and heavy exposure to [cig & other] smoke.

The problem is, the pit is a powerful dog and most slack jaws [thugs, criminals, losers, etc.] that own it on the street aren't fit to own a fruit fly as a pet yet alone something like a pit bull. Those fools and the BYBs that take advantage of those fools' demand for the pit bull by breeding "mangy mutts" together [as most street bred pit bulls are 90% mutt] where the criteria is they're big and nasty ... who gives a "sh*t" if the dog has the mental stability of a cracker box... are the cause for BSL.

And that's the other problem - APBT [or pedigree pit] or street pit - the "breed" has become a catch phrase for pretty much anything that looks like a bully but doesn't meet the standard of other breeds. I've had people tell me "look a pit bull" and I am looking at something that is a lab x boxer or similar.

Ask a person with little dog knowledge to point out a pit bull - they'd point to a dozen mix breeds and probably more than a few pure bloods. It's the same thing that happens with wolves & coyotes [do you know how many people say that their mix breeds (pound puppies) look like wolves & coyotes - because 90% of the time those people wouldn't know what a wolf or coyote looked like unless it was chewing on their read end].
You made a lot of good points, and some things I want to add on to, address or...not quite refute but we'll get to that.

I think the idea of insurance, while...somewhat of a good idea, would cause loads of people to not adopt Pit Bulls, or keep them. It's hard enough to get Pits adopted or keep them in their homes, and that would just make it so much worse. It's bad enough many places don't allow them, but necessary insurance would be a nightmare. Also, like you said, having insurance is assuming that the owner of the dog is responsible. Honestly I think something that's doable, and easier would be owners of Pits and Pit mixes must get their dog neutered or THEN they get a fine. I feel like this would be less threatening, and would also get many dogs out of the hands of irresponsible owners who want to breed them for money, fighting or...just because. The availability of discounted or free neutering to Pits in many cities would also make this less financially difficult than insurance.

Not only that, but you're talking about "puppy buyers" like the majority of people who have Pits and Pit mixes are actually purchasing the dogs. Plenty do, sure. But most purchased "Pits" are actually purebred Am Staffs, or street bred bully mixes. Your average Pit owner adopted them from some sort of rescue, or from the street. Is it true prospective adopters should be screened and properly educated before they get their dog? Of course! But there just is not the time or resources to do that, and many good, homeless Pit mixes need adoption ASAP. If not, the alternative is a pink shot. It's so difficult to manage the balance between protecting the public from legitimate dangerous fighting bred dogs, and innocent dogs with good natures who just need a good owner, or one that understands the dog is good and well behaved, but can't be trusted around small animals or other dogs.

I really like your point about "what IS a backyard breeder?" This is SO hard to define for any breed, and also why it's so hard to regulate. The difficult thing about this is that it's something that never would be able to be regulated that properly unless it was in a super controlled method that was nothing short of personally invasive and well...more expensive than any government would have to spend on dogs. However, with time hopefully some better laws can be put in to at least control commercial breeding and puppy mills.

It is true that most Pits are really just some sort of bully mix. Currently there's a "Pit Bull mix" in my shelter that I'm quite certain is actually a Boxer/hound mix. There's a weird looking dog that looks like a giant Chihuahua/Shepherd mix that's labeled as a Pit mix. In urban shelters anything even somewhat resembling a bully breed is immediately labeled a Pit mix, and it's rather frustrating. I consider myself an expert in dog breeds and recognition, but bully breed recognition is next to impossible unless they are all hardcore purebreds with very distinct features that have very minor differences like skull size, body girth and the difference of a few inches. But just strolling through a shelter? You'll find a little bit of everything with majority bully features like the large, hard skull and powerful jaws, strong body, long tail, but with a huge variety of heights, weights, leg length, ear styles, muzzle lengths and mouth width, patterns, colors and more. But the variety of these street dogs makes them have such variant personalities, much more than a more concentrated purebred like a Rottweiler. I'll expect a more drastic difference of personality from a group of 6 Pits in a shelter than I will from 6 Rottweilers, German Shepherds, or even Shih Tzus and Chihuahuas.

Pit Bulls are such a big issue all over. But in order to protect the dogs and the general public I do thing the best way to try and control things would be mandatory spay/neuter for these dogs. While lots of people had childish grins of excitement when we found out some of our dogs at the shelter are pregnant, I cringed. I love puppies, but the last thing we need is a dozen or two more Pit mixes. Reduce the population, educate the public on UNBIASED info, and try to only promote and adopt out the best dogs, and not spend money and resources on dogs that will always be a risk, and might continue the bad rep Pits have.
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I completely agree that so many people who own bully breeds ("pit bulls" or whatever they want to call their dog) shouldn't. A lot of them are owned by older bleeding heart rescue people who won't admit their dog has strong prey drive and may not be perfect with other dogs. They end up bringing their adult pits to dog parks and are SHOCKED when they don't do well in large groups of strange dogs! Of course the people who use them for status symbols or to look cool and/or scary are just as bad and are completely ill-equipped to own any dog, let alone a strong terrier. Believe me, when my dog sees a squirrel she is NOT messing around - she's strong!
This has happened a lot in our town lately. Small dogs ripped limb from limb by DA bullies. Then you keep reading the story... OH WAIT-- the dog had a bite history, was supposed to be muzzled in public, not on a lead longer than 6', etc. etc. etc., and the owners were not taking the restrictions seriously when they lost control of their dog and they killed another dog.

I wish I could say I knew the answer. It's such an obvious pattern. Clearly municipalities cannot have doggy "parole officers" following these dogs everywhere but I think if the owners are caught violating restrictions... $10,000 fine. Boom.
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To the original post - I just think about the breeds that have already gone through these witch hunts. Dobermans, GSD's and Rottweilers for example.

These are all dog breeds, along with the Pitbull that went through a fad stage.
There was a high demand for them, lots of BYB, mostly no screening potential owners and the typical training methods not at all suited for dogs.
Along with the fact that a lot of those dogs were not socialized, they were yard dogs and people just didn't know about reactivity like we (mostly) do today.
Right away they were labelled aggressive.

I don't think Pitbulls are for everybody, same as I think a Beagle isn't for everybody.

There is a "right breed" for everyone out there but you need to be honest with yourself and what your needs and capabilities are.
Not just say - I want a Pitbull because they are cool.
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You made a lot of good points, and some things I want to add on to, address or...not quite refute but we'll get to that.

I think the idea of insurance, while...somewhat of a good idea, would cause loads of people to not adopt Pit Bulls, or keep them.

Not only that, but you're talking about "puppy buyers" like the majority of people who have Pits and Pit mixes are actually purchasing the dogs. Plenty do, sure. But most purchased "Pits" are actually purebred Am Staffs, or street bred bully mixes. Your average Pit owner adopted them from some sort of rescue, or from the street. Is it true prospective adopters should be screened and properly educated before they get their dog?

Pit Bulls are such a big issue all over. But in order to protect the dogs and the general public I do thing the best way to try and control things would be mandatory spay/neuter for these dogs. While lots of people had childish grins of excitement when we found out some of our dogs at the shelter are pregnant, I cringed. I love puppies, but the last thing we need is a dozen or two more Pit mixes. Reduce the population, educate the public on UNBIASED info, and try to only promote and adopt out the best dogs, and not spend money and resources on dogs that will always be a risk, and might continue the bad rep Pits have.
I'll go in sections:

Liability insurance

Yes, there is that. But wouldn't people feel a little more ... not confident but similar if there was some sort of a "backstop".

Maybe have the liability insurance on something of a sliding scale [pit / pit mixes, whatever you got that looks pitty, has to be evaluated yearly by a canine behaviorist / trainer]. Depending on the evaluation that's your payment. My father was a classification officer in federal prisons, these were the people that evaluated prisoners to see what "wing" they belonged to - and gave summaries for patrol meetings amongst other things; and I think if something similar ... a pit bull "classification officer"... would work.

I mean if good dog owner pays $50 in liability insurance yearly and bad pit owners pays $5,000+ in liability insurance wouldn't that be more incentive to be responsible for owning a pit bull... that's one of the major issues. The owners are not necessarily responsible [even people whom adopt oftentimes get in over their heads].


I mean it's sort of different [in the most basic sense, neither is desirable] letting an ill-trained pug run wild jumping and biting at people than having an ill-trained pit bull do the same thing. Forgoing the size, it's sort of easy to pry a pug off... not necessarily with a pit when it clamps down.



I would really love to see neutering of pit bulls stepped up. Particularly street level dogs.

But the unfortunate thing is, is most street level people don't want their dogs neutered/spayed. Makes the dog "less". As if the dog really cares if it has its bits or not :eyeroll: [I've seen plenty of neutered boys humping away just as happily as intact dogs].


If you want to know what I mean look up Rodney McAllister - he was a 4th grader eaten alive by dogs in 2001 in St. Louis [it disgusts me to call myself human reading the cowardice of the people in the neighborhood]. St. Louis has always had a problem with dogs running loose and this is what happened - a pack attacked and ate the kid. Were the dogs destroyed? No. A number of dogs running loose [ones that could have easily been responsible] were rounded up by animal control (who really dropped the ball, people apparently had complained about this pack for a while)... and released back to their owners who finally "manned up" and claimed responsibility for those dogs.

When calls were had - there's always been calls for spaying / neutering these loose dogs in St. Louis - to spay and neuter the problem animals many people protested. Including of all things a priest saying he didn't want his male dogs neutered because they would indeed be "less manly". Forget the fact that loose dogs breeding like rabbits killed a child ... a less manly dog is infinitely a no go.



Screening / buyers.

Of course most adoptees are screened - that's just what a shelter needs, adopt out a pit bull to some goof off and watch the shelter go to the literal dogs [bad rep, condemned by rumour, etc.]. As you said it's hard enough adopting out pit bulls --- black dogs suffer the same thing in areas, which I think is rather comical seeing as in other areas of the world it's not black dogs / cats that are evil it is actually white dogs / cats are actually considered evil [shows how fickle humans are, doesn't it?].

But how would you enforce that with "breeders". You can't. A vast majority of street level pit bulls are just that - street level. Out of someone's backyard, sometimes even the back of their van or even a hotel room. They don't advertise like breeders of Lassie do, it's all word of mouth in the "circuits" that are after these sorts of dogs.

Joe asks John where he can get a pit, John tells Joe that Ed's bitch [female dog, not a woman] is pregnant. There you go... one sold pit bull puppy.




It is true that most Pits are really just some sort of bully mix. Currently there's a "Pit Bull mix" in my shelter that I'm quite certain is actually a Boxer/hound mix. There's a weird looking dog that looks like a giant Chihuahua/Shepherd mix that's labeled as a Pit mix. In urban shelters anything even somewhat resembling a bully breed is immediately labeled a Pit mix, and it's rather frustrating. I consider myself an expert in dog breeds and recognition, but bully breed recognition is next to impossible unless they are all hardcore purebreds with very distinct features that have very minor differences like skull size, body girth and the difference of a few inches. But just strolling through a shelter? You'll find a little bit of everything with majority bully features like the large, hard skull and powerful jaws, strong body, long tail, but with a huge variety of heights, weights, leg length, ear styles, muzzle lengths and mouth width, patterns, colors and more. But the variety of these street dogs makes them have such variant personalities, much more than a more concentrated purebred like a Rottweiler. I'll expect a more drastic difference of personality from a group of 6 Pits in a shelter than I will from 6 Rottweilers, German Shepherds, or even Shih Tzus and Chihuahuas.

A relative has adopted numerous pit bulls over the years - or what passes as pits. He told me he'd never have children [has a genetic issue he doesn't want to pass along] so he'd rather have four legged kids. This is everything from a boxer mix to actual former fighting dogs.

His current dog, Bones, is a former fighting dog. He is muzzled outdoors in public because training can only curb so much of such an animal's born dog aggression. Remove dogs and Bones is probably the biggest human "kiss up" suck going... his name comes from the fact this dog will become a "sack of bones" and let you do pretty much anything to him. Everyone has probably heard of Ragdoll / Ragamuffin cats... (extremely docile placid cats) .. same sort of personality with Bones.

My relative says pits come in scales - 1 (least true pit), 3 (average "pit") and 5 (true pits / fighting dogs). The problem isn't the dog as 3s are the most common dog he's encountered, but the person.

They haven't a rat ass' clue what to do with the breed... with this I am talking "normal" people not thugs, criminals, etc. [those sorts are a different animal entirely]..... and in a way they're no better than the thugs & criminals.

A number of young pit bulls are tossed in shelters cause the owners think it'll be a cute little puppy forever. They barely train it - or if they do train it, it's not the right training for a high energy active dog that needs to be engaged [this isn't some lazy bulldog on the end of your leash] constantly and has to have its training reinforced constantly. My relative jokes it's like having a tiger on the end of your leash... you got to be hyper aware of what the dog is doing and stop it before it does something. That is how you own a pit bull properly not rambling along with your eyes closed hoping for the best.


There's some idiot - and I say idiot - in the US breeding oversized pit bulls [Hulk - 175lbs of pit bull & is thankfully more mastiff than true pitty by the looks]. All I was thinking when seeing this was oh my god and holy sh*t. And the pathetic thing is, is the idiot breeder tries to pass the dog off as a family dog. Yes, a well trained, well behaved, well bred "pit bull" is a fantastic family dog... how many morons are going to get their mitts on this dog (and it's puppies) or similarly huge "pit bulls" and just be jumping off the deep end with a concrete block glued to their feet.

I mean the video, I'll see if I can find it, of the "owner" walking Hulk... is some dumb woman and she has zero control over it. If she is attached some skies to her feet, she could follow behind him like a sled. If that dog decided to go true "pit bull" that'd be a run away train coming at you and/or another dog.
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Indeed BSL wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the losers.
Don't blame the people trying to do what they think will protect themselves, their dogs, and their children - blame the deadbeats, the want-a-be tough guys...
How long have you been in the states? If you only deal with one side of something then you clearly can't see the whole picture. As if this is what you believe it is not an accurate image.
Pet bull owners do just as much harm to the breed. Due to being in denial about their dogs and allowing incidents to happen. They are just as much to blame. I do still blame the law makers for their ignorance, but aside from that I do very well blame the owners. Not only street thugs, all the irresponsible owners. The majority of people bitten by dogs are children and it is usually by a family pet or a yard dog. This includes when it comes to Pit Bulls. It is not simply dogs owned by "low lifes".
The majority of Pit Bulls I've known or encountered have been fine dogs. At least when it comes to people, irregardless of their environment (ghetto dog or middle class house pet). However I have met some man aggressive dogs, they do exist. Yet the owners don't have to be "wanna be tough" or drug dealers. One of my good friends had a female Pit, raised from puppy, obedient, took the dog out and socialized but still developed man aggression. I attribute it to more fear based. They might seem protective to someone at first but you realize the dog is actually a coward. Another older couple had a dog that was nuts. At least by the definitions of this breeds temperament. The dogs nature was more that of an defensive guardian breed. These people treated this dog like their child, in a way she was bevausr their kids were grown. However she was extremely territorial and man aggressive. She was also dog aggressive with a high prey drive. It was a lot for them to handle, especially when the guy started to have some health issues. It was very stressful for them and not what they wanted. I can tell you similar stories of dangerous Pits I've known. Including one that sent a kid to the ER with a severe head injury. Similar story the couples "baby", especially the wife. She was a super nice lady and thought of her animals as kids, didn't raise them to be substitute balls of whatever. When clueless but well meaning pet owners have a powerful dog it can be a disaster too. Then you have the yard dogs that live on chain or with low fencing. This is NOT responsible ownership but it's no different than owners of any other breed the Labs, GSDs, Goldens, Huskies, ACDs, Boxers, Mutts, ect I see. They don't want an aggressive problem dog, they don't want a status symbol but their "pet" is sentenced to the backyard for life once it's no longer a cute puppy. When its a Pit who behaves aggressively or even bites it's a big problem.
This isn't even including the countless issues with dog to dog aggression or other animals. My cousins own Pit was PTS as dangerous for killing a cat. The dog had prey drive towards strange cats and even though they were pretty responsible with a trained, pet raised neutered dog it still happened. Most incidents are not even like that they are out right ignorance and denial. They take their dog to the dog park then when it attacks another dog they freak out because they were never expecting it to happen and a dog ends up dead. Or they let their dog run loose, which is clearly irresponsible but they think she won't go anywhere and would never hurt anyone. When you try to tell them different they say YOU are the problem with the breed, you think they are monsters, you don't understand. It's so frustrating. Some people turn against the breed or their own dog when incidents happen. Seriously claiming they can't trust the dog, the dog just snapped, ect. Almost nothing angers me more, especially if they were told NOT to leave their dogs alone together, not to let their dogs mingle with a bunch of strange dogs, not to let them run loose. After informing you have the breeds reputation is your fault or that their dogs are not fighters when something finally happens then they are crying to you!
Remove the street owners from the equation and you remove the problem in those areas. Not in small towns or even cities where they are popular PETS. So you still have problems and possible BSL being proposed.

A growing number of states (even regions/states) have liability insurance - some make it a finable offense (to a degree you can even face jail time if you keep getting fined) to even have something remotely resembling a pit bull if you don't have at least a minimum of $100,000 liability insurance...
It is still an unfair form of BSL. It also doesn't help the problem. An unfit jailbird is not going to muster up money for insurance. Some don't even have car insurance! They will keep their dogs and if anything let them be PTS if they are found owning them. It only hurts the people who are already responsible in the first place. Like my friends brother his Pit is registered, neutered, microchipped with the required liability insurance, but then his dog was never going to harm anyone so he's being unfairly "taxed" in a way while the irresponsible Pit owners in the city are still owning their Pits without insurance. The same reason why bans only hurt good owners & good dogs. Miami has had ban for decades yet irresponsible owners don't care and they still have fighting busts there. Criminals have a total disregard for the law.
I agree with the BYB and better laws. But what is a BYB? Is it just someone whimsically breeding? Is it someone breeding dogs with no titles (either with no health testing or little health testing - or simply bred out faults from generations of working with a particular bloodline)? Is it someone that breeds working dogs (again, what is the principle to health testing?)? Is it someone that breeds dogs outside the standard? Is it someone that breeds a "fad" [a number of designer dogs are plagued with a BYB aspect]? Unfortunately, BYB breeders are not quite like a puppy mill which is sort of "cut & dry".
I'm not really for a lot of breeding regulation. I think it can be good but is also a slippery slope so one needs to really consider it. I'm in full agreement of it not being cut and dry, just as on the other forum I have my ideas but it can vary a lot.
I'd force prospective puppy buyers to have to go through a pre-adoption class and be forced to take a test before they even get to sniff a dog

We don't do that with people having children and working out two methadone clinics [pharmacist] which is for narcotic / opiate addiction [and heroin amongst other drugs] I see many, many, many people that shouldn't have children. I can't say much - patient confidentially - but there's a number of children born to these people [young children] on multiple drugs already to combat the problems caused by drug abuse / alcohol abuse by mother and heavy exposure to [cig & other] smoke.
Oh yeah there are a lot of people who should never, ever have children. However this is a completely different issue. You are talking about human reproductive rights vs owning an animal. Natural pro creation that people consider a human right vs unnatural selection to own a luxury animal (besides necessary working dog of course).
The problem is, the pit is a powerful dog and most slack jaws [thugs, criminals, losers, etc.] that own it on the street aren't fit to own a fruit fly as a pet yet alone something like a pit bull. Those fools and the BYBs that take advantage of those fools' demand for the pit bull by breeding "mangy mutts" together [as most street bred pit bulls are 90% mutt] where the criteria is they're big and nasty ... who gives a "sh*t" if the dog has the mental stability of a cracker box... are the cause for BSL.
Again those people are by far not the only problem but if what you are saying is true then most of the issue is mutts. Not actual Pit Bulls but misrepresented mutts due to ignorance spread by law makers, fear groups, plain ignorant people over the years. Misuse of the word Pit Bull has had dire consequences for the breed itself and for other dogs caught in the mix.
And that's the other problem - APBT [or pedigree pit] or street pit - the "breed" has become a catch phrase for pretty much anything that looks like a bully but doesn't meet the standard of other breeds. I've had people tell me "look a pit bull" and I am looking at something that is a lab x boxer or similar.
Exactly. So when you ban Pit Bulls or have all these requirements these idiots don't even know what a Pit Bull is. If it looks like a Pit to them or they want to say it a Pit that can be a death sentence.
Ask a person with little dog knowledge to point out a pit bull - they'd point to a dozen mix breeds and probably more than a few pure bloods. It's the same thing that happens with wolves & coyotes [do you know how many people say that their mix breeds (pound puppies) look like wolves & coyotes - because 90% of the time those people wouldn't know what a wolf or coyote looked like unless it was chewing on their read end].

And you find Canada "stupid" with their BSL. Try some European countries, they go nuts.
Pretty much. I was going to mention this right up above England DDA is really sad. If a dog is deemed a Pit Bull by looks it can be a huge heartache for the owner it does not matter if the dog is a Boxer/lab mix or a pure SBT it is "legally a Pit Bull" because the dog warden says so. This is what crazy laws get us.
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I think the idea of insurance, while...somewhat of a good idea, would cause loads of people to not adopt Pit Bulls, or keep them. It's hard enough to get Pits adopted or keep them in their homes, and that would just make it so much worse. It's bad enough many places don't allow them, but necessary insurance would be a nightmare. Also, like you said, having insurance is assuming that the owner of the dog is responsible. Honestly I think something that's doable, and easier would be owners of Pits and Pit mixes must get their dog neutered or THEN they get a fine. I feel like this would be less threatening, and would also get many dogs out of the hands of irresponsible owners who want to breed them for money, fighting or...just because. The availability of discounted or free neutering to Pits in many cities would also make this less financially difficult than insurance.
That's something to consider too. It is hard enough to own a Pit Bull. You really need to be committed to them. You face hate towards your dog because of the breed they were born. You have to worry about BSL coming to your city. Then there is the issue of residence some HOI will not insure with a Pit and many landlords don't want to rent to owners of Pits. In some cases it is because of insurance reasons, other times by their own choice.
I don't agree with breed elimination either. While they have issues they face and require a responsible owner they are no better or worse than other breeds overall. A slow genocide is not the answer. If myself or any responsible person could control irresponsible people from breeding that would be great, but laws don't work like that. They are black and white, just like all other BSL.
Not only that, but you're talking about "puppy buyers" like the majority of people who have Pits and Pit mixes are actually purchasing the dogs. Plenty do, sure. But most purchased "Pits" are actually purebred Am Staffs, or street bred bully mixes. Your average Pit owner adopted them from some sort of rescue, or from the street. Is it true prospective adopters should be screened and properly educated before they get their dog? Of course! But there just is not the time or resources to do that, and many good, homeless Pit mixes need adoption ASAP. If not, the alternative is a pink shot. It's so difficult to manage the balance between protecting the public from legitimate dangerous fighting bred dogs, and innocent dogs with good natures who just need a good owner, or one that understands the dog is good and well behaved, but can't be trusted around small animals or other dogs.
I think it's hard to get a good number on where most people get Pits. It might be an even split or a case of recycled dogs. When people buy Pits then dump them, they then get adopted from shelter or rescued from the street so people are doing both even with the exact same dogs.
I think that's hardly the case considering the extremely low numbers of AmStaffs over all the years. You are looking at registration numbers at or below 1,000 per year that would account for less than 1% of Pit Bulls. All those other registered Pits must be going somewhere? I would assume being sold and therefore purchased. Besides the ones kept by responsible breeders which wouldn't account for most. As most breeders are irresponsible and even responsible breeders do sell pups. I'd think that unregistered Pits and Pit mixes would account for possibly up to an equal amount. Simply due to their popularity when a registered dog gets pregnant by a mutt, when someone breeds unregistered dog to registered dog, Pit mixes together, ect they are contributing to the available pups for sale who will be purchased. This is true in other breeds too especially popular ones. You see bybs with ABC Boxers or AKC Labs then got also see lots of unregistered litters or you know the person who's GSD got pregnant by a mutt but they are trying to sell them as pure. With the vast amount of Pits you are going to see just as many unregistered Pits & Pit mixes for sale as you do registered pure breds most likely. Yet the AmStaff accounts for an extremely small minority of Pits.
It is true that most Pits are really just some sort of bully mix. Currently there's a "Pit Bull mix" in my shelter that I'm quite certain is actually a Boxer/hound mix. There's a weird looking dog that looks like a giant Chihuahua/Shepherd mix that's labeled as a Pit mix. In urban shelters anything even somewhat resembling a bully breed is immediately labeled a Pit mix, and it's rather frustrating. I consider myself an expert in dog breeds and recognition, but bully breed recognition is next to impossible unless they are all hardcore purebreds with very distinct features that have very minor differences like skull size, body girth and the difference of a few inches. But just strolling through a shelter? You'll find a little bit of everything with majority bully features like the large, hard skull and powerful jaws, strong body, long tail, but with a huge variety of heights, weights, leg length, ear styles, muzzle lengths and mouth width, patterns, colors and more. But the variety of these street dogs makes them have such variant personalities, much more than a more concentrated purebred like a Rottweiler. I'll expect a more drastic difference of personality from a group of 6 Pits in a shelter than I will from 6 Rottweilers, German Shepherds, or even Shih Tzus and Chihuahuas.
Frustrating indeed. It drives me nuts people want to label everything a Pit Bull.
Pit Bulls are such a big issue all over. But in order to protect the dogs and the general public I do thing the best way to try and control things would be mandatory spay/neuter for these dogs. While lots of people had childish grins of excitement when we found out some of our dogs at the shelter are pregnant, I cringed. I love puppies, but the last thing we need is a dozen or two more Pit mixes. Reduce the population, educate the public on UNBIASED info, and try to only promote and adopt out the best dogs, and not spend money and resources on dogs that will always be a risk, and might continue the bad rep Pits have.
I hope it never comes to that. I hate all the byb but never want to see the breed die out.
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Liability insurance
Maybe have the liability insurance on something of a sliding scale [pit / pit mixes, whatever you got that looks pitty, has to be evaluated yearly by a canine behaviorist / trainer]. Depending on the evaluation that's your payment. My father was a classification officer in federal prisons, these were the people that evaluated prisoners to see what "wing" they belonged to - and gave summaries for patrol meetings amongst other things; and I think if something similar ... a pit bull "classification officer"... would work.
I mean if good dog owner pays $50 in liability insurance yearly and bad pit owners pays $5,000+ in liability insurance wouldn't that be more incentive to be responsible for owning a pit bull... that's one of the major issues. The owners are not necessarily responsible [even people whom adopt oftentimes get in over their heads].
Insurance doesn't work like that. The cost of liability insurance varies by company and the amount of insurance you obtain. A 200k policy will typically cost more than a 100k policy and again companies charge their own rates and deductible amounts can play into it. Insurance might cost $800 a year or it might be $2000 a year. You can have $1000 deductible or a $2500 deductible. Then it will also depend on is the HOI policy you have apt for this or are you adding additional liability to it or are you obtaining an independent policy to cover the bodily harm caused by the dog in addition to HOI (or if you rent).

I already spend thousands of dollars a year on my dogs. I'm not going to waste money on an unnecessary policy because thugs won't control their Pits (who won't get insurance even if required) or some pet owners mutt has aggression issues.

It also wouldn't be more incentive even if it worked like that. If your dog test bad and you have to pay more why would they be more responsible. They are paying $5,000 a year for the insurance right? So they are covered should something happen.

When calls were had - there's always been calls for spaying / neutering these loose dogs in St. Louis - to spay and neuter the problem animals many people protested. Including of all things a priest saying he didn't want his male dogs neutered because they would indeed be "less manly". Forget the fact that loose dogs breeding like rabbits killed a child ... a less manly dog is infinitely a no go.
This I don't understand. Places do have laws about keeping intact dogs, I think those are good. Though they are not actually enforced sometimes. I can't believe people think this is bad idea. Dogs at large is usually a fine and in some places intact dogs at large is a higher fine and not containing females in heat is a fine. That priest is ridiculous, if you don't want to neuter your dog great but then don't let it run loose. This isn't the wild, it shouldn't be a free for all with animals running free and breeding in the streets.

Screening / buyers.
Of course most adoptees are screened - that's just what a shelter needs, adopt out a pit bull to some goof off and watch the shelter go to the literal dogs [bad rep, condemned by rumour, etc.]. As you said it's hard enough adopting out pit bulls --- black dogs suffer the same thing in areas, which I think is rather comical seeing as in other areas of the world it's not black dogs / cats that are evil it is actually white dogs / cats are actually considered evil [shows how fickle humans are, doesn't it?].
Unfortunately not all shelters are like this. They don't screen homes. You do have to give them your name, address and phone number. Some you sign a paper saying you will keep current vacs ect but not like they follow up.

But how would you enforce that with "breeders". You can't. A vast majority of street level pit bulls are just that - street level. Out of someone's backyard, sometimes even the back of their van or even a hotel room. They don't advertise like breeders of Lassie do, it's all word of mouth in the "circuits" that are after these sorts of dogs.
You're right. You really can't. Word of mouth does sell dogs but they very well do advertise too. In some areas classifieds are full of "Pit Bull puppies", or self made signs and if you look online you can find numerous of these same ads. It's really disturbing.

His current dog, Bones, is a former fighting dog. He is muzzled outdoors in public because training can only curb so much of such an animal's born dog aggression. Remove dogs and Bones is probably the biggest human "kiss up" suck going... his name comes from the fact this dog will become a "sack of bones" and let you do pretty much anything to him. Everyone has probably heard of Ragdoll / Ragamuffin cats... (extremely docile placid cats) .. same sort of personality with Bones.
This is typical of the Pit Bulls nature. If more people would accept it then we would have less problems.
I don't muzzle mine but that's just me. I'd be okay if more people did instead of thinking their dog wouldn't hurt another or knowing their dog has issues but yet they walk it right up to other dogs.

There's some idiot - and I say idiot - in the US breeding oversized pit bulls [Hulk - 175lbs of pit bull & is thankfully more mastiff than true pitty by the looks]. All I was thinking when seeing this was oh my god and holy sh*t. And the pathetic thing is, is the idiot breeder tries to pass the dog off as a family dog. Yes, a well trained, well behaved, well bred "pit bull" is a fantastic family dog... how many morons are going to get their mitts on this dog (and it's puppies) or similarly huge "pit bulls" and just be jumping off the deep end with a concrete block glued to their feet.
Hulk is not a Pit Bull. He is maybe 20% Pit that doesn't make a dog a Pit Bull. His mix isn't even primarily comprised of Pit Bull. His breeders are am example of people's misrepresentation of what they have. A huge problem APBT. The only positive is thanks to the owners self attempt at publicity dogs bred like this started the effort to have their I'll got registration revoked.
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The only pitbull I know is my daughter's pitbull (probably) pointer mix. He is a sweetheart. He was rescued as a one-year-old by my daughter's boyfriend's mother. Unfortunately, her JRT didn't get on with him, so her son and my daughter took him in. Since then he as blossomed into an awesome well-behaved dog. He is now 6. He is very tolerant of my five-year-old mastiff who despite his age is still very puppy-like when he plays. Never once have they fought and are besties.
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I already spend thousands of dollars a year on my dogs. I'm not going to waste money on an unnecessary policy because thugs won't control their Pits (who won't get insurance even if required) or some pet owners mutt has aggression issues.

It's not always thugs. Tell me do you seriously think a new dog owner who has never owned a dog - or maybe some common docile dog [lab, golden, BC, etc.] - would be capable of handling a pit bull. Or what passes as them?

They might have a better chance if they were at obedience school from day 1 and never let up in their training. Most people don't want that - they want a dog but none of the effort and that's why pits are typically dumped "too much dog".

A well trained / well behaved pit bull is a dream, fabulous dogs by majority, however, but the average joe person be they legit owners with no experience [or just imbeciles / thugs] are in over their heads when they buy one.



It also wouldn't be more incentive even if it worked like that. If your dog test bad and you have to pay more why would they be more responsible. They are paying $5,000 a year for the insurance right? So they are covered should something happen.

True. I wrote that half asleep. However, remove the liability insurance and what do you have? Crack shot laws? There's nothing there ... it's either kill them all or ignore them all right now. There's no immediate middle ground ... government / breeders / authorities waited too long to "nip the problem in the bub" and now it's gotten well out of hand.

It's like killing ants but not dealing with the colony.


With respect to other breeds - Romania, GSDs and their mixes have to be muzzled regardless of temperament when in public. Ukraine bans 80 breeds and their mixes... too extreme or along the right steps?

Any dog is a risk under the right conditions as said. Google dog attacks, almost every single popular breed is mentioned at least once including "family dogs" in headlines all over the world


This I don't understand. Places do have laws about keeping intact dogs, I think those are good. Though they are not actually enforced sometimes. I can't believe people think this is bad idea. Dogs at large is usually a fine and in some places intact dogs at large is a higher fine and not containing females in heat is a fine. That priest is ridiculous, if you don't want to neuter your dog great but then don't let it run loose. This isn't the wild, it shouldn't be a free for all with animals running free and breeding in the streets.

Unfortunately, back then, and I don't think it has improved a lot animal control in that area sucked. Big time. As I mentioned people had complained about this pack before the kid was attacked and instead of simply destroying all the dogs [they shouldn't have been running loose] or giving the dogs to shelter they gave a large number back. "Makes sense" doesn't it.

Unfortunately not all shelters are like this. They don't screen homes. You do have to give them your name, address and phone number. Some you sign a paper saying you will keep current vacs ect but not like they follow up.

No they're not. But is it do to overstocking of dogs or lazy staff? Why not have a mandatory training sessions every 6 months for 2 years with pit bull adoptees. I mean how many inexperienced people adopt a pit because they "want one" and it gets tossed into the shelter a town over.

But then what of staff and ... odd... shelters.

By odd I mean this - the local shelter here is huge, gigantic. I have not seen such a large shelter in a small sized city before ... typically it's a half dozen small ones. 80% of that shelter is actually for staff and other garbage... the area for dogs and cats was remarkably small and that was painfully obvious last year when they rescued a lot of dogs from a hoarder [a number of pens - big pens but by no means gigantic] were crowded with dogs.


You're right. You really can't. Word of mouth does sell dogs but they very well do advertise too. In some areas classifieds are full of "Pit Bull puppies", or self made signs and if you look online you can find numerous of these same ads. It's really disturbing.

It is. But how would you control it? It's hard enough controlling legit breeders and what are puppy mills. Go to the breeders and find out if they are "acceptable" - if not remove all dogs, spay / neuter as needed, and adopt them out...

Imagine the man power & money to even do that in ONE major city yet alone everywhere



This is typical of the Pit Bulls nature. If more people would accept it then we would have less problems.
I don't muzzle mine but that's just me. Bones has to be muzzled, he is a dog killer. Rather than take a risk, just simple safety. I'd be okay if more people did instead of thinking their dog wouldn't hurt another or knowing their dog has issues but yet they walk it right up to other dogs. Be nice wouldn't it, a number of goofs walk up with "pit bulls" without muzzle and I just go... oh god, why me.


Hulk is not a Pit Bull. He is maybe 20% Pit that doesn't make a dog a Pit Bull. His mix isn't even primarily comprised of Pit Bull. His breeders are am example of people's misrepresentation of what they have. A huge problem APBT. The only positive is thanks to the owners self attempt at publicity dogs bred like this started the effort to have their I'll got registration revoked.
I know Hulk isn't. But that's an example of what the "pit bull" can become. There's plenty of mutt breeding in the APBT / pit bull world - XL pits for example?

And I've researched some "pit bull" - so called registered dogs - when bored. There's one female, I'll see if I can find her again, her grandsire is about as "pit bull" as a cat would be.
It's not always thugs. Tell me do you seriously think a new dog owner who has never owned a dog - or maybe some common docile dog [lab, golden, BC, etc.] - would be capable of handling a pit bull. Or what passes as them?
I know it's not simply thugs. I made that point numerous times.
Did you miss the "or some pet owners mutt has aggression issues".

My point stands I'm not paying insurance because pet bull mutt owners or thugs with street bred mutts are irresponsible. I shouldn't be obligated to pay for my actual Pit Bulls who will not be the cause of problems.

I don't find BCs to be common or docile.

They might have a better chance if they were at obedience school from day 1 and never let up in their training. Most people don't want that - they want a dog but none of the effort and that's why pits are typically dumped "too much dog".
Properly containing their dog would help. Training and socialization too but yeah lots of dog owners are lazy.

A well trained / well behaved pit bull is a dream, fabulous dogs by majority, however, but the average joe person be they legit owners with no experience [or just imbeciles / thugs] are in over their heads when they buy one.
Agreed

True. I wrote that half asleep. However, remove the liability insurance and what do you have? Crack shot laws? There's nothing there ... it's either kill them all or ignore them all right now. There's no immediate middle ground ... government / breeders / authorities waited too long to "nip the problem in the bub" and now it's gotten well out of hand.

It's like killing ants but not dealing with the colony.
Certainly there does not seem to be an immediate solution.

With respect to other breeds - Romania, GSDs and their mixes have to be muzzled regardless of temperament when in public. Ukraine bans 80 breeds and their mixes... too extreme or along the right steps?
Isn't there some place that greyhounds must be muzzled?

Unfortunately, back then, and I don't think it has improved a lot animal control in that area sucked. Big time. As I mentioned people had complained about this pack before the kid was attacked and instead of simply destroying all the dogs [they shouldn't have been running loose] or giving the dogs to shelter they gave a large number back. "Makes sense" doesn't it.
It's really shocking, isn't anyone worried it will happen again.

Unfortunately not all shelters are like this. They don't screen homes. You do have to give them your name, address and phone number. Some you sign a paper saying you will keep current vacs ect but not like they follow up.

No they're not. But is it do to overstocking of dogs or lazy staff? Why not have a mandatory training sessions every 6 months for 2 years with pit bull adoptees. I mean how many inexperienced people adopt a pit because they "want one" and it gets tossed into the shelter a town over.
I think it is dependent on their individual policies. I think that'd be a good idea. That would help potential adopters. Though I don't think it should only be for Pit Bulls and every 6 months isn't frequent enough. A lot of people could benefit from it. So many don't know how to train their dog, even if they are willing.

You're right. You really can't. Word of mouth does sell dogs but they very well do advertise too. In some areas classifieds are full of "Pit Bull puppies", or self made signs and if you look online you can find numerous of these same ads. It's really disturbing.

It is. But how would you control it? It's hard enough controlling legit breeders and what are puppy mills. Go to the breeders and find out if they are "acceptable" - if not remove all dogs, spay / neuter as needed, and adopt them out...

Imagine the man power & money to even do that in ONE major city yet alone everywhere
I don't think we can control it, without laws at least. Kennels are usually given a time frame to comply. Without it they can be fined, ect. I think only if it is truly bad conditions will they take the dogs. I think it is hard to say what is acceptable or not too. No laws usually specify the required temperament of the dog, or require health tests or that the breeder screen homes and take dogs back.


This is typical of the Pit Bulls nature. If more people would accept it then we would have less problems.
I don't muzzle mine but that's just me. Bones has to be muzzled, he is a dog killer. Rather than take a risk, just simple safety. I'd be okay if more people did instead of thinking their dog wouldn't hurt another or knowing their dog has issues but yet they walk it right up to other dogs. Be nice wouldn't it, a number of goofs walk up with "pit bulls" without muzzle and I just go... oh god, why me.

I personally don't feel my dogs have to be muzzled. I think if your not comfortable not using it then by all means do it. As a precaution it is fine even if I don't find it necessary.

I know Hulk isn't. But that's an example of what the "pit bull" can become. There's plenty of mutt breeding in the APBT / pit bull world - XL pits for example?

And I've researched some "pit bull" - so called registered dogs - when bored. There's one female, I'll see if I can find her again, her grandsire is about as "pit bull" as a cat would be.
No a Pit Bull can't become that. It can't become something which it is not. Correcting this misrepresentation is a way to educate people on what a Pit Bull is. Rather than them thinking that is a Pit Bull due to ignorance. Those XL Pits are the same type of mix.

If you find it sure post it.
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