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Fact or fiction...Pitbulls

16564 Views 64 Replies 24 Participants Last post by  SpicyBulldog
I have spent quite a few days this last week researching Pit Bulls and everything related, including what dogs fall into the mix.
After sifting through thousands of articles and social media attempts at trying to convince one way or the other, I have become deafened by both sides of the debate by senseless, shortsighted, and closed minded information.
I am on the fence if it is at all possible to have an objective and informative resource to get to the bottom of the hysteria regarding all things Pit bull, and I think if it can be achieved, this may be the place.

I ask that all participants keep an open mind and stick to documented facts from "reliable" sources.
Personal experiences can alter the objectiveness I am hoping for but welcome these experiences if the breed is not generalized by this experience.
Pitbulls are not bad, my kid plays with ours everyday and has never been bitten.
Pitbulls should be banned because my family member was attacked!

I would like to get to the bottom of the hype. What is true and what is fiction.
In regards to questions, it would be great to have answers backed up with a source so that the source can be verified or challenged as fact or fiction by a source.

Is this a last resort or is it a case of enough is enough?

Off leash/on leash/muzzle
Restriction of breed, look, character, or does it matter?

Pit bull to dog bite
Crazy/untrained Pit bull or defensive attributes?

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Is this a last resort or is it a case of enough is enough?
I think that it is really done for political reasons or in a misguided effort. The only benefit would probably be a reduced population of an overly popular breed.

Off leash/on leash/muzzle
Restriction of breed, look, character, or does it matter?
I don't think restrictions should apply. That's a form of BSL. Though I think owners should have common sense not to let their dogs run at large.

Pit bull to dog bite
Crazy/untrained Pit bull or defensive attributes?
Usually neither. You can't put bites in a neat box. Some are unstable with or without training. Some are trained to bite. This breed typically lacks defense drive.

I don't agree that they are monsters, but I do agree that they are more dog than most can handle. I don't believe it's "all in how you raise them". They are not bred to be mellow, biddable, tolerate-anything spaniels. They are terriers and can manifest all the traits that come with the territory: They are iffy with dogs, kids and small animals and can be energetic and even a bit temperamental.
People who think it's all in how you raise them are living in a fantasy world.

I find them to be biddable though as a breed they have a range. The willingness to please transfers to biddability.

Dogs and small animals yes. Kids not iffy at all. I certainly wouldn't use kids and temperamental in the same sentence. Maybe I'd say kids and tolerant, yes. Don't have any sources so it is speaking from personal experience I use to be a kid once upon a time and now I'm a mom. This breed loves attention from people and seek it from kids.

I think parents should teach kids properly. No matter what the breed. How often does it happen a dog isn't too tolerant of is pushed to the edge and has made all signs it wants to be left alone, even tries so get away from a child and parent does nothing? Not until the dog nips the kid who's pulling him by the tail.

Your question really hits home with me today as I got the news that a bully mix I had been helping to train was put down for "snapping at a child". Take that for what you will. I don't know the whole story yet, but I can't help but wonder if the story would not have ended so badly, had the dog been homed with a family that didn't have a small kid. IMO not a good fit for:

a) A dog not raised around kids (she was a rescue).
b) A terrier, a breed known to be on the mouthier, nippier side of the spectrum.
Not an ideal situation it doesn't sound like. It is unfortunate for the dog but I hope the child was okay. "Snapped at" doesn't sound like they were injured though if a next time would have been allowed it could have been different.

As to the part in bold don't know about other terriers but that is NOT a trait of the APBT. The only few times I've seen this was in Pits clearly exhibiting separation anxiety.

The bull & terrier was the originator of the pit bull (and the staffie & the bull terrier) so for it to have terrier qualities is not unusual if you think about it. And I think that's where some of the problem lies - the average joe (so not thugs & want-a-bes) get a pit bull thinking that'd it is going to be more bully [bulldog, etc.] and are just not prepared for that dogged terrier attitude.
It's true the traits are similar to those found in other terriers. I've pointed this out to people who seem to think the traits unique to the Pit Bull and cause for them to be dangerous and like no other dog. When terriers are tenacious, do keep hold, are pretty fearless and some show higher threshold for pain. ...but these are also traits of bulldogs too tough, keep hold, high pain threshold. It is one reason why Pits are referred to as bulldogs because of these traits.
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Indeed BSL wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the losers.
Don't blame the people trying to do what they think will protect themselves, their dogs, and their children - blame the deadbeats, the want-a-be tough guys...
How long have you been in the states? If you only deal with one side of something then you clearly can't see the whole picture. As if this is what you believe it is not an accurate image.
Pet bull owners do just as much harm to the breed. Due to being in denial about their dogs and allowing incidents to happen. They are just as much to blame. I do still blame the law makers for their ignorance, but aside from that I do very well blame the owners. Not only street thugs, all the irresponsible owners. The majority of people bitten by dogs are children and it is usually by a family pet or a yard dog. This includes when it comes to Pit Bulls. It is not simply dogs owned by "low lifes".
The majority of Pit Bulls I've known or encountered have been fine dogs. At least when it comes to people, irregardless of their environment (ghetto dog or middle class house pet). However I have met some man aggressive dogs, they do exist. Yet the owners don't have to be "wanna be tough" or drug dealers. One of my good friends had a female Pit, raised from puppy, obedient, took the dog out and socialized but still developed man aggression. I attribute it to more fear based. They might seem protective to someone at first but you realize the dog is actually a coward. Another older couple had a dog that was nuts. At least by the definitions of this breeds temperament. The dogs nature was more that of an defensive guardian breed. These people treated this dog like their child, in a way she was bevausr their kids were grown. However she was extremely territorial and man aggressive. She was also dog aggressive with a high prey drive. It was a lot for them to handle, especially when the guy started to have some health issues. It was very stressful for them and not what they wanted. I can tell you similar stories of dangerous Pits I've known. Including one that sent a kid to the ER with a severe head injury. Similar story the couples "baby", especially the wife. She was a super nice lady and thought of her animals as kids, didn't raise them to be substitute balls of whatever. When clueless but well meaning pet owners have a powerful dog it can be a disaster too. Then you have the yard dogs that live on chain or with low fencing. This is NOT responsible ownership but it's no different than owners of any other breed the Labs, GSDs, Goldens, Huskies, ACDs, Boxers, Mutts, ect I see. They don't want an aggressive problem dog, they don't want a status symbol but their "pet" is sentenced to the backyard for life once it's no longer a cute puppy. When its a Pit who behaves aggressively or even bites it's a big problem.
This isn't even including the countless issues with dog to dog aggression or other animals. My cousins own Pit was PTS as dangerous for killing a cat. The dog had prey drive towards strange cats and even though they were pretty responsible with a trained, pet raised neutered dog it still happened. Most incidents are not even like that they are out right ignorance and denial. They take their dog to the dog park then when it attacks another dog they freak out because they were never expecting it to happen and a dog ends up dead. Or they let their dog run loose, which is clearly irresponsible but they think she won't go anywhere and would never hurt anyone. When you try to tell them different they say YOU are the problem with the breed, you think they are monsters, you don't understand. It's so frustrating. Some people turn against the breed or their own dog when incidents happen. Seriously claiming they can't trust the dog, the dog just snapped, ect. Almost nothing angers me more, especially if they were told NOT to leave their dogs alone together, not to let their dogs mingle with a bunch of strange dogs, not to let them run loose. After informing you have the breeds reputation is your fault or that their dogs are not fighters when something finally happens then they are crying to you!
Remove the street owners from the equation and you remove the problem in those areas. Not in small towns or even cities where they are popular PETS. So you still have problems and possible BSL being proposed.

A growing number of states (even regions/states) have liability insurance - some make it a finable offense (to a degree you can even face jail time if you keep getting fined) to even have something remotely resembling a pit bull if you don't have at least a minimum of $100,000 liability insurance...
It is still an unfair form of BSL. It also doesn't help the problem. An unfit jailbird is not going to muster up money for insurance. Some don't even have car insurance! They will keep their dogs and if anything let them be PTS if they are found owning them. It only hurts the people who are already responsible in the first place. Like my friends brother his Pit is registered, neutered, microchipped with the required liability insurance, but then his dog was never going to harm anyone so he's being unfairly "taxed" in a way while the irresponsible Pit owners in the city are still owning their Pits without insurance. The same reason why bans only hurt good owners & good dogs. Miami has had ban for decades yet irresponsible owners don't care and they still have fighting busts there. Criminals have a total disregard for the law.
I agree with the BYB and better laws. But what is a BYB? Is it just someone whimsically breeding? Is it someone breeding dogs with no titles (either with no health testing or little health testing - or simply bred out faults from generations of working with a particular bloodline)? Is it someone that breeds working dogs (again, what is the principle to health testing?)? Is it someone that breeds dogs outside the standard? Is it someone that breeds a "fad" [a number of designer dogs are plagued with a BYB aspect]? Unfortunately, BYB breeders are not quite like a puppy mill which is sort of "cut & dry".
I'm not really for a lot of breeding regulation. I think it can be good but is also a slippery slope so one needs to really consider it. I'm in full agreement of it not being cut and dry, just as on the other forum I have my ideas but it can vary a lot.
I'd force prospective puppy buyers to have to go through a pre-adoption class and be forced to take a test before they even get to sniff a dog

We don't do that with people having children and working out two methadone clinics [pharmacist] which is for narcotic / opiate addiction [and heroin amongst other drugs] I see many, many, many people that shouldn't have children. I can't say much - patient confidentially - but there's a number of children born to these people [young children] on multiple drugs already to combat the problems caused by drug abuse / alcohol abuse by mother and heavy exposure to [cig & other] smoke.
Oh yeah there are a lot of people who should never, ever have children. However this is a completely different issue. You are talking about human reproductive rights vs owning an animal. Natural pro creation that people consider a human right vs unnatural selection to own a luxury animal (besides necessary working dog of course).
The problem is, the pit is a powerful dog and most slack jaws [thugs, criminals, losers, etc.] that own it on the street aren't fit to own a fruit fly as a pet yet alone something like a pit bull. Those fools and the BYBs that take advantage of those fools' demand for the pit bull by breeding "mangy mutts" together [as most street bred pit bulls are 90% mutt] where the criteria is they're big and nasty ... who gives a "sh*t" if the dog has the mental stability of a cracker box... are the cause for BSL.
Again those people are by far not the only problem but if what you are saying is true then most of the issue is mutts. Not actual Pit Bulls but misrepresented mutts due to ignorance spread by law makers, fear groups, plain ignorant people over the years. Misuse of the word Pit Bull has had dire consequences for the breed itself and for other dogs caught in the mix.
And that's the other problem - APBT [or pedigree pit] or street pit - the "breed" has become a catch phrase for pretty much anything that looks like a bully but doesn't meet the standard of other breeds. I've had people tell me "look a pit bull" and I am looking at something that is a lab x boxer or similar.
Exactly. So when you ban Pit Bulls or have all these requirements these idiots don't even know what a Pit Bull is. If it looks like a Pit to them or they want to say it a Pit that can be a death sentence.
Ask a person with little dog knowledge to point out a pit bull - they'd point to a dozen mix breeds and probably more than a few pure bloods. It's the same thing that happens with wolves & coyotes [do you know how many people say that their mix breeds (pound puppies) look like wolves & coyotes - because 90% of the time those people wouldn't know what a wolf or coyote looked like unless it was chewing on their read end].

And you find Canada "stupid" with their BSL. Try some European countries, they go nuts.
Pretty much. I was going to mention this right up above England DDA is really sad. If a dog is deemed a Pit Bull by looks it can be a huge heartache for the owner it does not matter if the dog is a Boxer/lab mix or a pure SBT it is "legally a Pit Bull" because the dog warden says so. This is what crazy laws get us.
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I think the idea of insurance, while...somewhat of a good idea, would cause loads of people to not adopt Pit Bulls, or keep them. It's hard enough to get Pits adopted or keep them in their homes, and that would just make it so much worse. It's bad enough many places don't allow them, but necessary insurance would be a nightmare. Also, like you said, having insurance is assuming that the owner of the dog is responsible. Honestly I think something that's doable, and easier would be owners of Pits and Pit mixes must get their dog neutered or THEN they get a fine. I feel like this would be less threatening, and would also get many dogs out of the hands of irresponsible owners who want to breed them for money, fighting or...just because. The availability of discounted or free neutering to Pits in many cities would also make this less financially difficult than insurance.
That's something to consider too. It is hard enough to own a Pit Bull. You really need to be committed to them. You face hate towards your dog because of the breed they were born. You have to worry about BSL coming to your city. Then there is the issue of residence some HOI will not insure with a Pit and many landlords don't want to rent to owners of Pits. In some cases it is because of insurance reasons, other times by their own choice.
I don't agree with breed elimination either. While they have issues they face and require a responsible owner they are no better or worse than other breeds overall. A slow genocide is not the answer. If myself or any responsible person could control irresponsible people from breeding that would be great, but laws don't work like that. They are black and white, just like all other BSL.
Not only that, but you're talking about "puppy buyers" like the majority of people who have Pits and Pit mixes are actually purchasing the dogs. Plenty do, sure. But most purchased "Pits" are actually purebred Am Staffs, or street bred bully mixes. Your average Pit owner adopted them from some sort of rescue, or from the street. Is it true prospective adopters should be screened and properly educated before they get their dog? Of course! But there just is not the time or resources to do that, and many good, homeless Pit mixes need adoption ASAP. If not, the alternative is a pink shot. It's so difficult to manage the balance between protecting the public from legitimate dangerous fighting bred dogs, and innocent dogs with good natures who just need a good owner, or one that understands the dog is good and well behaved, but can't be trusted around small animals or other dogs.
I think it's hard to get a good number on where most people get Pits. It might be an even split or a case of recycled dogs. When people buy Pits then dump them, they then get adopted from shelter or rescued from the street so people are doing both even with the exact same dogs.
I think that's hardly the case considering the extremely low numbers of AmStaffs over all the years. You are looking at registration numbers at or below 1,000 per year that would account for less than 1% of Pit Bulls. All those other registered Pits must be going somewhere? I would assume being sold and therefore purchased. Besides the ones kept by responsible breeders which wouldn't account for most. As most breeders are irresponsible and even responsible breeders do sell pups. I'd think that unregistered Pits and Pit mixes would account for possibly up to an equal amount. Simply due to their popularity when a registered dog gets pregnant by a mutt, when someone breeds unregistered dog to registered dog, Pit mixes together, ect they are contributing to the available pups for sale who will be purchased. This is true in other breeds too especially popular ones. You see bybs with ABC Boxers or AKC Labs then got also see lots of unregistered litters or you know the person who's GSD got pregnant by a mutt but they are trying to sell them as pure. With the vast amount of Pits you are going to see just as many unregistered Pits & Pit mixes for sale as you do registered pure breds most likely. Yet the AmStaff accounts for an extremely small minority of Pits.
It is true that most Pits are really just some sort of bully mix. Currently there's a "Pit Bull mix" in my shelter that I'm quite certain is actually a Boxer/hound mix. There's a weird looking dog that looks like a giant Chihuahua/Shepherd mix that's labeled as a Pit mix. In urban shelters anything even somewhat resembling a bully breed is immediately labeled a Pit mix, and it's rather frustrating. I consider myself an expert in dog breeds and recognition, but bully breed recognition is next to impossible unless they are all hardcore purebreds with very distinct features that have very minor differences like skull size, body girth and the difference of a few inches. But just strolling through a shelter? You'll find a little bit of everything with majority bully features like the large, hard skull and powerful jaws, strong body, long tail, but with a huge variety of heights, weights, leg length, ear styles, muzzle lengths and mouth width, patterns, colors and more. But the variety of these street dogs makes them have such variant personalities, much more than a more concentrated purebred like a Rottweiler. I'll expect a more drastic difference of personality from a group of 6 Pits in a shelter than I will from 6 Rottweilers, German Shepherds, or even Shih Tzus and Chihuahuas.
Frustrating indeed. It drives me nuts people want to label everything a Pit Bull.
Pit Bulls are such a big issue all over. But in order to protect the dogs and the general public I do thing the best way to try and control things would be mandatory spay/neuter for these dogs. While lots of people had childish grins of excitement when we found out some of our dogs at the shelter are pregnant, I cringed. I love puppies, but the last thing we need is a dozen or two more Pit mixes. Reduce the population, educate the public on UNBIASED info, and try to only promote and adopt out the best dogs, and not spend money and resources on dogs that will always be a risk, and might continue the bad rep Pits have.
I hope it never comes to that. I hate all the byb but never want to see the breed die out.
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Liability insurance
Maybe have the liability insurance on something of a sliding scale [pit / pit mixes, whatever you got that looks pitty, has to be evaluated yearly by a canine behaviorist / trainer]. Depending on the evaluation that's your payment. My father was a classification officer in federal prisons, these were the people that evaluated prisoners to see what "wing" they belonged to - and gave summaries for patrol meetings amongst other things; and I think if something similar ... a pit bull "classification officer"... would work.
I mean if good dog owner pays $50 in liability insurance yearly and bad pit owners pays $5,000+ in liability insurance wouldn't that be more incentive to be responsible for owning a pit bull... that's one of the major issues. The owners are not necessarily responsible [even people whom adopt oftentimes get in over their heads].
Insurance doesn't work like that. The cost of liability insurance varies by company and the amount of insurance you obtain. A 200k policy will typically cost more than a 100k policy and again companies charge their own rates and deductible amounts can play into it. Insurance might cost $800 a year or it might be $2000 a year. You can have $1000 deductible or a $2500 deductible. Then it will also depend on is the HOI policy you have apt for this or are you adding additional liability to it or are you obtaining an independent policy to cover the bodily harm caused by the dog in addition to HOI (or if you rent).

I already spend thousands of dollars a year on my dogs. I'm not going to waste money on an unnecessary policy because thugs won't control their Pits (who won't get insurance even if required) or some pet owners mutt has aggression issues.

It also wouldn't be more incentive even if it worked like that. If your dog test bad and you have to pay more why would they be more responsible. They are paying $5,000 a year for the insurance right? So they are covered should something happen.

When calls were had - there's always been calls for spaying / neutering these loose dogs in St. Louis - to spay and neuter the problem animals many people protested. Including of all things a priest saying he didn't want his male dogs neutered because they would indeed be "less manly". Forget the fact that loose dogs breeding like rabbits killed a child ... a less manly dog is infinitely a no go.
This I don't understand. Places do have laws about keeping intact dogs, I think those are good. Though they are not actually enforced sometimes. I can't believe people think this is bad idea. Dogs at large is usually a fine and in some places intact dogs at large is a higher fine and not containing females in heat is a fine. That priest is ridiculous, if you don't want to neuter your dog great but then don't let it run loose. This isn't the wild, it shouldn't be a free for all with animals running free and breeding in the streets.

Screening / buyers.
Of course most adoptees are screened - that's just what a shelter needs, adopt out a pit bull to some goof off and watch the shelter go to the literal dogs [bad rep, condemned by rumour, etc.]. As you said it's hard enough adopting out pit bulls --- black dogs suffer the same thing in areas, which I think is rather comical seeing as in other areas of the world it's not black dogs / cats that are evil it is actually white dogs / cats are actually considered evil [shows how fickle humans are, doesn't it?].
Unfortunately not all shelters are like this. They don't screen homes. You do have to give them your name, address and phone number. Some you sign a paper saying you will keep current vacs ect but not like they follow up.

But how would you enforce that with "breeders". You can't. A vast majority of street level pit bulls are just that - street level. Out of someone's backyard, sometimes even the back of their van or even a hotel room. They don't advertise like breeders of Lassie do, it's all word of mouth in the "circuits" that are after these sorts of dogs.
You're right. You really can't. Word of mouth does sell dogs but they very well do advertise too. In some areas classifieds are full of "Pit Bull puppies", or self made signs and if you look online you can find numerous of these same ads. It's really disturbing.

His current dog, Bones, is a former fighting dog. He is muzzled outdoors in public because training can only curb so much of such an animal's born dog aggression. Remove dogs and Bones is probably the biggest human "kiss up" suck going... his name comes from the fact this dog will become a "sack of bones" and let you do pretty much anything to him. Everyone has probably heard of Ragdoll / Ragamuffin cats... (extremely docile placid cats) .. same sort of personality with Bones.
This is typical of the Pit Bulls nature. If more people would accept it then we would have less problems.
I don't muzzle mine but that's just me. I'd be okay if more people did instead of thinking their dog wouldn't hurt another or knowing their dog has issues but yet they walk it right up to other dogs.

There's some idiot - and I say idiot - in the US breeding oversized pit bulls [Hulk - 175lbs of pit bull & is thankfully more mastiff than true pitty by the looks]. All I was thinking when seeing this was oh my god and holy sh*t. And the pathetic thing is, is the idiot breeder tries to pass the dog off as a family dog. Yes, a well trained, well behaved, well bred "pit bull" is a fantastic family dog... how many morons are going to get their mitts on this dog (and it's puppies) or similarly huge "pit bulls" and just be jumping off the deep end with a concrete block glued to their feet.
Hulk is not a Pit Bull. He is maybe 20% Pit that doesn't make a dog a Pit Bull. His mix isn't even primarily comprised of Pit Bull. His breeders are am example of people's misrepresentation of what they have. A huge problem APBT. The only positive is thanks to the owners self attempt at publicity dogs bred like this started the effort to have their I'll got registration revoked.
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It's not always thugs. Tell me do you seriously think a new dog owner who has never owned a dog - or maybe some common docile dog [lab, golden, BC, etc.] - would be capable of handling a pit bull. Or what passes as them?
I know it's not simply thugs. I made that point numerous times.
Did you miss the "or some pet owners mutt has aggression issues".

My point stands I'm not paying insurance because pet bull mutt owners or thugs with street bred mutts are irresponsible. I shouldn't be obligated to pay for my actual Pit Bulls who will not be the cause of problems.

I don't find BCs to be common or docile.

They might have a better chance if they were at obedience school from day 1 and never let up in their training. Most people don't want that - they want a dog but none of the effort and that's why pits are typically dumped "too much dog".
Properly containing their dog would help. Training and socialization too but yeah lots of dog owners are lazy.

A well trained / well behaved pit bull is a dream, fabulous dogs by majority, however, but the average joe person be they legit owners with no experience [or just imbeciles / thugs] are in over their heads when they buy one.

True. I wrote that half asleep. However, remove the liability insurance and what do you have? Crack shot laws? There's nothing there ... it's either kill them all or ignore them all right now. There's no immediate middle ground ... government / breeders / authorities waited too long to "nip the problem in the bub" and now it's gotten well out of hand.

It's like killing ants but not dealing with the colony.
Certainly there does not seem to be an immediate solution.

With respect to other breeds - Romania, GSDs and their mixes have to be muzzled regardless of temperament when in public. Ukraine bans 80 breeds and their mixes... too extreme or along the right steps?
Isn't there some place that greyhounds must be muzzled?

Unfortunately, back then, and I don't think it has improved a lot animal control in that area sucked. Big time. As I mentioned people had complained about this pack before the kid was attacked and instead of simply destroying all the dogs [they shouldn't have been running loose] or giving the dogs to shelter they gave a large number back. "Makes sense" doesn't it.
It's really shocking, isn't anyone worried it will happen again.

Unfortunately not all shelters are like this. They don't screen homes. You do have to give them your name, address and phone number. Some you sign a paper saying you will keep current vacs ect but not like they follow up.

No they're not. But is it do to overstocking of dogs or lazy staff? Why not have a mandatory training sessions every 6 months for 2 years with pit bull adoptees. I mean how many inexperienced people adopt a pit because they "want one" and it gets tossed into the shelter a town over.
I think it is dependent on their individual policies. I think that'd be a good idea. That would help potential adopters. Though I don't think it should only be for Pit Bulls and every 6 months isn't frequent enough. A lot of people could benefit from it. So many don't know how to train their dog, even if they are willing.

You're right. You really can't. Word of mouth does sell dogs but they very well do advertise too. In some areas classifieds are full of "Pit Bull puppies", or self made signs and if you look online you can find numerous of these same ads. It's really disturbing.

It is. But how would you control it? It's hard enough controlling legit breeders and what are puppy mills. Go to the breeders and find out if they are "acceptable" - if not remove all dogs, spay / neuter as needed, and adopt them out...

Imagine the man power & money to even do that in ONE major city yet alone everywhere
I don't think we can control it, without laws at least. Kennels are usually given a time frame to comply. Without it they can be fined, ect. I think only if it is truly bad conditions will they take the dogs. I think it is hard to say what is acceptable or not too. No laws usually specify the required temperament of the dog, or require health tests or that the breeder screen homes and take dogs back.

This is typical of the Pit Bulls nature. If more people would accept it then we would have less problems.
I don't muzzle mine but that's just me. Bones has to be muzzled, he is a dog killer. Rather than take a risk, just simple safety. I'd be okay if more people did instead of thinking their dog wouldn't hurt another or knowing their dog has issues but yet they walk it right up to other dogs. Be nice wouldn't it, a number of goofs walk up with "pit bulls" without muzzle and I just go... oh god, why me.

I personally don't feel my dogs have to be muzzled. I think if your not comfortable not using it then by all means do it. As a precaution it is fine even if I don't find it necessary.

I know Hulk isn't. But that's an example of what the "pit bull" can become. There's plenty of mutt breeding in the APBT / pit bull world - XL pits for example?

And I've researched some "pit bull" - so called registered dogs - when bored. There's one female, I'll see if I can find her again, her grandsire is about as "pit bull" as a cat would be.
No a Pit Bull can't become that. It can't become something which it is not. Correcting this misrepresentation is a way to educate people on what a Pit Bull is. Rather than them thinking that is a Pit Bull due to ignorance. Those XL Pits are the same type of mix.

If you find it sure post it.
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Ultimately, regardless of the way you look at it there's three people that get their mitts on pit bulls that ... shouldn't.

1) thugs & criminals - people wanting to intimidate. These are oftentimes the fools that have human aggressive pit bulls because that is what they want - the breed itself is dog aggressive but it isn't supposed to be human aggressive.

2) "dogmen" - pit bull fighters. A family associate - not necessarily friend - was an old fashion dogman so I know what it's like; it was never classy but there was some ... respect for the dogs and they just weren't pieces of meat to all such individuals.

I frequent a forum for such ... yeah they exist, you just have to look and know what they're referring to when they say stuff. Modern "dogmen" - I put these sorts in quotes as a majority aren't real dogmen just losers with no talent looking for quick money - as my grandfather, an Irishman, would say they're the sort that don't have the balls to make it in the boxing ring (or life) so they have to be "manly" somehow. I just really watch [I'm no cop, it's not my job to investigate], and there's a number of them that say things which make you wish you could reach through the screen and strangle them.

Most of them have no respect for the dogs - some claim they do, they're flat out lying but it makes them feel a little more human to play at being humane - and no respect for the people / pets they're putting at risk. There's a number of these sort that admit they run like rats from a sinking ship [oftentimes involving rental properties or near attacks] when the sh*t hits the fan.

3) new / inexperienced dog owners. I worked at a shelter, the management refused flat out to give anyone whom had no prior experience with anything resembling a pit bull the option of adopting.

A little extreme, to some maybe, but it wasn't a risk they were willing to take.
Are dogmen not criminals? Respect or not they are still committing felonies. I'm not sure if we should say "get their mitts on" either since they are the original source of these dogs. They are the ones who allowed others to get their mitts on them. Every breed at one time or another find it's way too the general public, or most every breed.

And yeah mastiff type pit bulls ARE becoming a problem of have you Eenypup not being reading up on the breed. There's XL pits, XXL pits. Some of them are nothing but fat bully dogs and about as really threatening to a human as a three legged cat... but some kennels do breed correct LARGE pitbulls.

And that's the problem if you didn't know ... people breeding big pits on the street to be tougher.
"Mastiff type Pit Bull" doesn't exist. Those dogs are Pit bull mastiff crosses.

There are some with large Pit Bulls, true enough but I don't think those are a primarily the problem dogs. I think in the larger dogs it's going to be the mastiff mix bandog types or American Bullies.
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I get what you are saying. I understand why one might mention a Pit Bull mix in a Pit Bull discussion....But I wouldn't say that using it as a generic term is a good idea. Not specifically in this particular discussion especially because that would almost render it pointless. If we are to speak about the "fact" or "fiction" including reliable sources and anecdotes then we would very well need to be talking about the same animal.
If 1 poster is talking about Pit Bull & Pit Bull mixes and another poster is talking about Pits & Am Bulldogs, another is talking about American Bullies, another is talking about pull dogs and yet another is talking about all of the above and more breeds how can we come to any conclusions. We are not even talking about the same subject.
I think BadRap's point is that since they can't be positive of a dog's heritage they call them pit bulls because that's what they appear to be, but they may or may not actually be APBT (some might be) and could be Pit mixes are mixes of other bully breeds that look like Pits. The DNA researched proved that dogs commonly called PB are mixed breed dogs. So therefore identification by physical appearance is woefully inaccurate.
Which is actually a huge part of the Pit Bull problem. Mis labeled dogs.

I think your experience is considered relevant, just as I might mention an experience with a Lab mix in a Lab discussion. However I would not mention experiences with all other retriever breeds or mixes there of as if they were of equal representation. As they are not. Even though some of those breeds are very closely related to Labs, just as the Staffy Bull or even many Am Bulldog are to the APBT.
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I've just been lurking but I have to add that I was so irritated when I saw that they bred Hulk. That is not a dog that's going to have nearly the lifespan of a healthy, normal weighted APBT - and neither are his poor puppies. I can only assume he bred Hulk with the largest female he could find to further his status of having the largest "Pit Bulls" in the world, when really he has the largest mixed breeds doomed to a short life. Those puppies will likely be used as investments by people who just want to get their hands on "the most powerful puppies in the world" and with that price tag it makes me wonder how much work went into finding good owners, or if that work was trumped out by finding the person willing to pay the most money.

Selling a litter with dreadful and problematic proportions at half a million dollars while pushing the agenda that pit bulls should be massive powerful killing machines is wrong wrong wrong.
While I don't like breeders of that type for some of the very reasons stated (misrepresentation, making money, catering to the wrong types) I don't know that we can make the assumption they will have a short life. Chevy himself lived to be 14+yrs old (still performing at 10yrs or so) and I've known similar bred dogs in their teens too. So it's in line with pure bred APBTs lifespan.
Great Dane average lifespan: 6-8 years
Mastiff average lifespan: 10-12 years
Newfoundland average lifespan: 8-12 years
Cane Corso: 10-11
Bernese Mountain Dog: 6-8
Saint Bernard: 8-10

HEALTHY well bred large breeds don't live very long on average. A dog bred to be as large as possible just for status, LIKELY won't live long, and breeding a dog for sheer size and power is a BAD reason to breed imo. Weight and size can cause major issues in hip, knee, joint, bone, ligament, heart, hypothyroidism, bloat/torsion, entropion/ectropion (huge eyelids and excessive folds that is clear in Hulk), etc. A dog who is bred with the expectations to have large puppies, as boasted by in the video where he states the one he was holding will be "almost as big as his dad!" can only be assumed was paired with a large dog in an attempt to create large puppies to sell for half a million dollars.

Not to mention they're labeled widely as Pit Bull when really they're a mix.
Danes die young due to serious cancers being widespread and a hereditary heart issue. Any breed that has a deadly issue will have a short lifespan. Flatcoats also are said to have short lifespan due to cancer. They are not an XL breed.
I wouldn't call 10-12 (of mastiff) that bad for a giant size dog. Boxers are the same and they are med-large.

My Cane Corso is almost 9yrs old so I hope that's not going to hold true. She has a good genetic history so I'm hopeful.

I don't know about any of those other breeds really and there are no stats on the Working Pit Bulldog or the like, what are you considering short. I already said I disagree with DDK9s breeding program and their misrepresentation. I'm only commenting on the assumption of short lifespan because Chevy lived 14yrs still going at 10yrs retired an Ace of Ace XX. I believe Demon Killa will have a good run too. Big Griff was still producing at 10yrs old I think. Ghostface has structure like Kickass Kicker better than Hulk's, obviously they want to go bigger. Hulk is also fat so that could impact his life span. I'm not saying he will live long but I wouldn't jump to conclusions. These dogs existed without major health issues and decent lifespan before DDK9s "fame" they are completely disgraceful and again I don't agree with what they are doing.
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I see what you're saying, however I still think that breeding dogs for largeness will negatively impact their health and life span/quality.
I understand what you are saying too. On one hand you have typically healthy dogs with decent lifespans and long careers. Which says that they don't break down, if you have a dog who is living but crippled and ill they don't have a great quality of life, if they are still going strong true longevity.

Then you have DDK9s/Hulk who want to go bigger for the sake of it, have the dogs overweight and use an inclusion of Bully blood (more prone to health issues) that they are probably going to end up with lesser quality dogs. Yet people are spending a ridiculous amount for a puppy. Hopefully they have money for the possible vet bills.

Average is just that, an average, lots of individual dogs live longer, and many die earlier. Hopefully you'll have your dog around for a good while longer.

The statistics are crystal clear though, larger dogs live shorter lives.
I know what an average is, it gives you a guideline and I'm hoping she lives beyond. I hate losing dogs, when they start to get older I start thinking about it.

Yes larger dogs in general live shorter lifespans but there is a variance between breeds and such. Dependant on if there are major health issues or not. We have no control over the genetic lottery that can be a win or lose. To the dogs of the subject of the foundation dog had a good lifespan, you don't see life threatening health problems that's a good sign.
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The reason I worry about XXL mixed breed pit bulls, like Hulk's, health is that I'm highly doubtful they are breeding for healthy dogs. I could be wrong but I really doubt it. Say the male dog is healthy, did they bother to also pick the healthiest female, or did they just pick the biggest one that they could find? If they didn't then the puppies stand a really good chance of growing up to be walking vet bills. The other thing to consider, would be do both the dogs have sound temperaments or are they simply extremely large dogs. That last is extremely important when the dogs are being advertised as protection dogs like DDK's dogs are.

That's true for any breed of dogs though, whether someone is breeding XXL mutts and calling them pit bulls, or breeding a legitimate breed of dog, they should start with the healthiest possible dogs they can get.

No they are usually not breeding for health. I think that the further steps they are taking in their program could lead to health issues. The reason why I don't worry as much in general about such dogs health wise is because they are relatively healthy. It is just like any other breed, it's relative to the breed. If you are breeding a breed which has several major health issues prevalent and frequency of minor issues and don't choose on health you have a good chance to produce some unhealthy dogs. If you are breeding a breed that doesn't have a high frequency of serious problems and you don't breed for health you have a low risk of producing pups with problems. This isn't any thanks to the breeder it's mere "luck" of the breeder/breed. They are still not an ethical breeder by most accounts, the genetic cards are simply stacked in their favor. You can't produce a disease for which the parents don't have the genes for.
I hope this makes sense, it's what I was trying to say before. I do think that think as this particular kennel chases size and uses bully blood they may in fact end up with unhealthy dogs.
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I completely understand what your saying. The thing I worry about with breeding for ever larger XXL "pitbulls" is that they are likely cross breeding in mastiffs or other giant breed dogs, many of the more poorly bred of those have some horrid genetic health problems. Considering that an APBT tops out around 60 lbs and kennels like DDK are breeding dogs that are well over 100 lbs I think very little pitbull blood is in the mix. Sooner or later they're going to have genetic health problems crop in unless they are being a heck of a lot more careful then I think they are being.
No they are indeed not APBT, they are an APBT derivative, bandog type. They originated as performance dogs first (I'm not saying working or sporting types don't have health problems) and if by chance the inclusion of other blood was of reasonable genetic health than that works positively in their favor. They are a young breed, only a couple decades or so, maybe in the future we will see problems but so far health issues seem low. I think the fact that they don't break down with age is also a good sign. Some dogs are fine when young, but start to show DJD or related problems with age, dogs can simply drop dead with heart issues, especially when under stress like jog catching or pulling 1000s of pounds. I think this not happening is positive for their breed.

Now again with DDK9 I agree with you. They are bringing in bully blood which is more prone to health issues. Not saying all bullies are unhealthy but they do seem to have a higher rate of genetic health problems and there are so many people breeding them like it's okay even when they have a problem. It is incredibly sad. All they care about is money and/or an extreme look. For any responsible bully breeders it's like trying to hand claw their way out of a collapsed mine. There are not enough to make a significant impact.

Actually you can have genetic health problems pop up out of the blue, sporadic gene mutations do occur, Some of them can then be passed onto children, and others only effect the person or animal it occurs in.
Somatic mutations can happen to any animal, so I don't think we can really consider that relevant to this situation.
New gene mutations can occur in individuals and end up passed down for generations and throughout a breed. That can happen within any breed, I'd say there is a relatively equal risk of that. Most genetic diseases are caused by long standing mutations, some very old across many breeds. A new mutation could happen in the Working Pit Bulldog but then it but then happen in the Tibetan Terrier. If a new mutation were to happen if even the breeders were health testing and trying to select for health they might not know about this new mutation at first and there wouldn't yet be testing for it. So again that's all chance and luck, if and when a breed may develop a new gene mutation.
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