Dog Forum banner

Fact or fiction...Pitbulls

16567 Views 64 Replies 24 Participants Last post by  SpicyBulldog
I have spent quite a few days this last week researching Pit Bulls and everything related, including what dogs fall into the mix.
After sifting through thousands of articles and social media attempts at trying to convince one way or the other, I have become deafened by both sides of the debate by senseless, shortsighted, and closed minded information.
I am on the fence if it is at all possible to have an objective and informative resource to get to the bottom of the hysteria regarding all things Pit bull, and I think if it can be achieved, this may be the place.

I ask that all participants keep an open mind and stick to documented facts from "reliable" sources.
Personal experiences can alter the objectiveness I am hoping for but welcome these experiences if the breed is not generalized by this experience.
Pitbulls are not bad, my kid plays with ours everyday and has never been bitten.
Pitbulls should be banned because my family member was attacked!

I would like to get to the bottom of the hype. What is true and what is fiction.
In regards to questions, it would be great to have answers backed up with a source so that the source can be verified or challenged as fact or fiction by a source.

Is this a last resort or is it a case of enough is enough?

Off leash/on leash/muzzle
Restriction of breed, look, character, or does it matter?

Pit bull to dog bite
Crazy/untrained Pit bull or defensive attributes?

Got a question? Ask.
See less See more
Not open for further replies.
1 - 4 of 65 Posts
You made a lot of good points, and some things I want to add on to, address or...not quite refute but we'll get to that.

I think the idea of insurance, while...somewhat of a good idea, would cause loads of people to not adopt Pit Bulls, or keep them.

Not only that, but you're talking about "puppy buyers" like the majority of people who have Pits and Pit mixes are actually purchasing the dogs. Plenty do, sure. But most purchased "Pits" are actually purebred Am Staffs, or street bred bully mixes. Your average Pit owner adopted them from some sort of rescue, or from the street. Is it true prospective adopters should be screened and properly educated before they get their dog?

Pit Bulls are such a big issue all over. But in order to protect the dogs and the general public I do thing the best way to try and control things would be mandatory spay/neuter for these dogs. While lots of people had childish grins of excitement when we found out some of our dogs at the shelter are pregnant, I cringed. I love puppies, but the last thing we need is a dozen or two more Pit mixes. Reduce the population, educate the public on UNBIASED info, and try to only promote and adopt out the best dogs, and not spend money and resources on dogs that will always be a risk, and might continue the bad rep Pits have.
I'll go in sections:

Liability insurance

Yes, there is that. But wouldn't people feel a little more ... not confident but similar if there was some sort of a "backstop".

Maybe have the liability insurance on something of a sliding scale [pit / pit mixes, whatever you got that looks pitty, has to be evaluated yearly by a canine behaviorist / trainer]. Depending on the evaluation that's your payment. My father was a classification officer in federal prisons, these were the people that evaluated prisoners to see what "wing" they belonged to - and gave summaries for patrol meetings amongst other things; and I think if something similar ... a pit bull "classification officer"... would work.

I mean if good dog owner pays $50 in liability insurance yearly and bad pit owners pays $5,000+ in liability insurance wouldn't that be more incentive to be responsible for owning a pit bull... that's one of the major issues. The owners are not necessarily responsible [even people whom adopt oftentimes get in over their heads].

I mean it's sort of different [in the most basic sense, neither is desirable] letting an ill-trained pug run wild jumping and biting at people than having an ill-trained pit bull do the same thing. Forgoing the size, it's sort of easy to pry a pug off... not necessarily with a pit when it clamps down.

I would really love to see neutering of pit bulls stepped up. Particularly street level dogs.

But the unfortunate thing is, is most street level people don't want their dogs neutered/spayed. Makes the dog "less". As if the dog really cares if it has its bits or not :eyeroll: [I've seen plenty of neutered boys humping away just as happily as intact dogs].

If you want to know what I mean look up Rodney McAllister - he was a 4th grader eaten alive by dogs in 2001 in St. Louis [it disgusts me to call myself human reading the cowardice of the people in the neighborhood]. St. Louis has always had a problem with dogs running loose and this is what happened - a pack attacked and ate the kid. Were the dogs destroyed? No. A number of dogs running loose [ones that could have easily been responsible] were rounded up by animal control (who really dropped the ball, people apparently had complained about this pack for a while)... and released back to their owners who finally "manned up" and claimed responsibility for those dogs.

When calls were had - there's always been calls for spaying / neutering these loose dogs in St. Louis - to spay and neuter the problem animals many people protested. Including of all things a priest saying he didn't want his male dogs neutered because they would indeed be "less manly". Forget the fact that loose dogs breeding like rabbits killed a child ... a less manly dog is infinitely a no go.

Screening / buyers.

Of course most adoptees are screened - that's just what a shelter needs, adopt out a pit bull to some goof off and watch the shelter go to the literal dogs [bad rep, condemned by rumour, etc.]. As you said it's hard enough adopting out pit bulls --- black dogs suffer the same thing in areas, which I think is rather comical seeing as in other areas of the world it's not black dogs / cats that are evil it is actually white dogs / cats are actually considered evil [shows how fickle humans are, doesn't it?].

But how would you enforce that with "breeders". You can't. A vast majority of street level pit bulls are just that - street level. Out of someone's backyard, sometimes even the back of their van or even a hotel room. They don't advertise like breeders of Lassie do, it's all word of mouth in the "circuits" that are after these sorts of dogs.

Joe asks John where he can get a pit, John tells Joe that Ed's bitch [female dog, not a woman] is pregnant. There you go... one sold pit bull puppy.

It is true that most Pits are really just some sort of bully mix. Currently there's a "Pit Bull mix" in my shelter that I'm quite certain is actually a Boxer/hound mix. There's a weird looking dog that looks like a giant Chihuahua/Shepherd mix that's labeled as a Pit mix. In urban shelters anything even somewhat resembling a bully breed is immediately labeled a Pit mix, and it's rather frustrating. I consider myself an expert in dog breeds and recognition, but bully breed recognition is next to impossible unless they are all hardcore purebreds with very distinct features that have very minor differences like skull size, body girth and the difference of a few inches. But just strolling through a shelter? You'll find a little bit of everything with majority bully features like the large, hard skull and powerful jaws, strong body, long tail, but with a huge variety of heights, weights, leg length, ear styles, muzzle lengths and mouth width, patterns, colors and more. But the variety of these street dogs makes them have such variant personalities, much more than a more concentrated purebred like a Rottweiler. I'll expect a more drastic difference of personality from a group of 6 Pits in a shelter than I will from 6 Rottweilers, German Shepherds, or even Shih Tzus and Chihuahuas.

A relative has adopted numerous pit bulls over the years - or what passes as pits. He told me he'd never have children [has a genetic issue he doesn't want to pass along] so he'd rather have four legged kids. This is everything from a boxer mix to actual former fighting dogs.

His current dog, Bones, is a former fighting dog. He is muzzled outdoors in public because training can only curb so much of such an animal's born dog aggression. Remove dogs and Bones is probably the biggest human "kiss up" suck going... his name comes from the fact this dog will become a "sack of bones" and let you do pretty much anything to him. Everyone has probably heard of Ragdoll / Ragamuffin cats... (extremely docile placid cats) .. same sort of personality with Bones.

My relative says pits come in scales - 1 (least true pit), 3 (average "pit") and 5 (true pits / fighting dogs). The problem isn't the dog as 3s are the most common dog he's encountered, but the person.

They haven't a rat ass' clue what to do with the breed... with this I am talking "normal" people not thugs, criminals, etc. [those sorts are a different animal entirely]..... and in a way they're no better than the thugs & criminals.

A number of young pit bulls are tossed in shelters cause the owners think it'll be a cute little puppy forever. They barely train it - or if they do train it, it's not the right training for a high energy active dog that needs to be engaged [this isn't some lazy bulldog on the end of your leash] constantly and has to have its training reinforced constantly. My relative jokes it's like having a tiger on the end of your leash... you got to be hyper aware of what the dog is doing and stop it before it does something. That is how you own a pit bull properly not rambling along with your eyes closed hoping for the best.

There's some idiot - and I say idiot - in the US breeding oversized pit bulls [Hulk - 175lbs of pit bull & is thankfully more mastiff than true pitty by the looks]. All I was thinking when seeing this was oh my god and holy sh*t. And the pathetic thing is, is the idiot breeder tries to pass the dog off as a family dog. Yes, a well trained, well behaved, well bred "pit bull" is a fantastic family dog... how many morons are going to get their mitts on this dog (and it's puppies) or similarly huge "pit bulls" and just be jumping off the deep end with a concrete block glued to their feet.

I mean the video, I'll see if I can find it, of the "owner" walking Hulk... is some dumb woman and she has zero control over it. If she is attached some skies to her feet, she could follow behind him like a sled. If that dog decided to go true "pit bull" that'd be a run away train coming at you and/or another dog.
See less See more
I already spend thousands of dollars a year on my dogs. I'm not going to waste money on an unnecessary policy because thugs won't control their Pits (who won't get insurance even if required) or some pet owners mutt has aggression issues.

It's not always thugs. Tell me do you seriously think a new dog owner who has never owned a dog - or maybe some common docile dog [lab, golden, BC, etc.] - would be capable of handling a pit bull. Or what passes as them?

They might have a better chance if they were at obedience school from day 1 and never let up in their training. Most people don't want that - they want a dog but none of the effort and that's why pits are typically dumped "too much dog".

A well trained / well behaved pit bull is a dream, fabulous dogs by majority, however, but the average joe person be they legit owners with no experience [or just imbeciles / thugs] are in over their heads when they buy one.

It also wouldn't be more incentive even if it worked like that. If your dog test bad and you have to pay more why would they be more responsible. They are paying $5,000 a year for the insurance right? So they are covered should something happen.

True. I wrote that half asleep. However, remove the liability insurance and what do you have? Crack shot laws? There's nothing there ... it's either kill them all or ignore them all right now. There's no immediate middle ground ... government / breeders / authorities waited too long to "nip the problem in the bub" and now it's gotten well out of hand.

It's like killing ants but not dealing with the colony.

With respect to other breeds - Romania, GSDs and their mixes have to be muzzled regardless of temperament when in public. Ukraine bans 80 breeds and their mixes... too extreme or along the right steps?

Any dog is a risk under the right conditions as said. Google dog attacks, almost every single popular breed is mentioned at least once including "family dogs" in headlines all over the world

This I don't understand. Places do have laws about keeping intact dogs, I think those are good. Though they are not actually enforced sometimes. I can't believe people think this is bad idea. Dogs at large is usually a fine and in some places intact dogs at large is a higher fine and not containing females in heat is a fine. That priest is ridiculous, if you don't want to neuter your dog great but then don't let it run loose. This isn't the wild, it shouldn't be a free for all with animals running free and breeding in the streets.

Unfortunately, back then, and I don't think it has improved a lot animal control in that area sucked. Big time. As I mentioned people had complained about this pack before the kid was attacked and instead of simply destroying all the dogs [they shouldn't have been running loose] or giving the dogs to shelter they gave a large number back. "Makes sense" doesn't it.

Unfortunately not all shelters are like this. They don't screen homes. You do have to give them your name, address and phone number. Some you sign a paper saying you will keep current vacs ect but not like they follow up.

No they're not. But is it do to overstocking of dogs or lazy staff? Why not have a mandatory training sessions every 6 months for 2 years with pit bull adoptees. I mean how many inexperienced people adopt a pit because they "want one" and it gets tossed into the shelter a town over.

But then what of staff and ... odd... shelters.

By odd I mean this - the local shelter here is huge, gigantic. I have not seen such a large shelter in a small sized city before ... typically it's a half dozen small ones. 80% of that shelter is actually for staff and other garbage... the area for dogs and cats was remarkably small and that was painfully obvious last year when they rescued a lot of dogs from a hoarder [a number of pens - big pens but by no means gigantic] were crowded with dogs.

You're right. You really can't. Word of mouth does sell dogs but they very well do advertise too. In some areas classifieds are full of "Pit Bull puppies", or self made signs and if you look online you can find numerous of these same ads. It's really disturbing.

It is. But how would you control it? It's hard enough controlling legit breeders and what are puppy mills. Go to the breeders and find out if they are "acceptable" - if not remove all dogs, spay / neuter as needed, and adopt them out...

Imagine the man power & money to even do that in ONE major city yet alone everywhere

This is typical of the Pit Bulls nature. If more people would accept it then we would have less problems.
I don't muzzle mine but that's just me. Bones has to be muzzled, he is a dog killer. Rather than take a risk, just simple safety. I'd be okay if more people did instead of thinking their dog wouldn't hurt another or knowing their dog has issues but yet they walk it right up to other dogs. Be nice wouldn't it, a number of goofs walk up with "pit bulls" without muzzle and I just go... oh god, why me.

Hulk is not a Pit Bull. He is maybe 20% Pit that doesn't make a dog a Pit Bull. His mix isn't even primarily comprised of Pit Bull. His breeders are am example of people's misrepresentation of what they have. A huge problem APBT. The only positive is thanks to the owners self attempt at publicity dogs bred like this started the effort to have their I'll got registration revoked.
I know Hulk isn't. But that's an example of what the "pit bull" can become. There's plenty of mutt breeding in the APBT / pit bull world - XL pits for example?

And I've researched some "pit bull" - so called registered dogs - when bored. There's one female, I'll see if I can find her again, her grandsire is about as "pit bull" as a cat would be.
Ultimately, regardless of the way you look at it there's three people that get their mitts on pit bulls that ... shouldn't.

1) thugs & criminals - people wanting to intimidate. These are oftentimes the fools that have human aggressive pit bulls because that is what they want - the breed itself is dog aggressive but it isn't supposed to be human aggressive.

2) "dogmen" - pit bull fighters. A family associate - not necessarily friend - was an old fashion dogman so I know what it's like; it was never classy but there was some ... respect for the dogs and they just weren't pieces of meat to all such individuals.

I frequent a forum for such ... yeah they exist, you just have to look and know what they're referring to when they say stuff. Modern "dogmen" - I put these sorts in quotes as a majority aren't real dogmen just losers with no talent looking for quick money - as my grandfather, an Irishman, would say they're the sort that don't have the balls to make it in the boxing ring (or life) so they have to be "manly" somehow. I just really watch [I'm no cop, it's not my job to investigate], and there's a number of them that say things which make you wish you could reach through the screen and strangle them.

Most of them have no respect for the dogs - some claim they do, they're flat out lying but it makes them feel a little more human to play at being humane - and no respect for the people / pets they're putting at risk. There's a number of these sort that admit they run like rats from a sinking ship [oftentimes involving rental properties or near attacks] when the sh*t hits the fan.

3) new / inexperienced dog owners. I worked at a shelter, the management refused flat out to give anyone whom had no prior experience with anything resembling a pit bull the option of adopting.

A little extreme, to some maybe, but it wasn't a risk they were willing to take.
See less See more
  • Like
Reactions: 1
Although to redact my previous statement a bit... yeah I'd be more leery of a guardian breed like a mastiff than a smaller, non-guardian breed dog. But I don't see how that's related to "pit bulls" at all. Why do all scary looking short haired dogs get lumped into one category? I fail to see the similarity between a 100+ lb guardian breed and my 50 lb bully mutt.

The only dog I've ever been truly afraid of was a Briard. A clueless family I used to babysit for owned this huge fluffy dog, and my first night of babysitting he cornered me in a room while holding their baby and gave me a warning bite (snap? I don't know, he made light contact) to the arm. I made them crate for a while after, and never trusted him. He never became friendly towards me. But he gets dragged around the city without a blink of anyone's eyes because he's not reminiscent of a "pit bull" or some other "scary" dog breed.
I think the more clueless one at that point was you, not the dog nor the owners. Look up the breed, it was merely doing what is was bred for. And that is guard. The baby was its to protect and you, a stranger, were manhandling it. Because if the Briard was really going after you, it'd have gone after you.

As for why do all the scary dogs get lumped into pit bull the reason - human scum that shouldn't own a fruit fly.

You want to know what I mean google the cow that let loose two pits on a guy walking to church in the Bronx. Woman has no control over the mutts and then has the nerve to lie - because I doubt she's telling the truth, her 2 + 2 just doesn't make 4 - by saying that she and the man "exchanged words" so it was alright for her to just "drop the leashes" [she admits, she just dropped the leashes]. That's just one example of the reason why people are afraid.

And yeah mastiff type pit bulls ARE becoming a problem of have you Eenypup not being reading up on the breed. There's XL pits, XXL pits. Some of them are nothing but fat bully dogs and about as really threatening to a human as a three legged cat... but some kennels do breed correct LARGE pitbulls.

And that's the problem if you didn't know ... people breeding big pits on the street to be tougher.
See less See more
1 - 4 of 65 Posts
Not open for further replies.