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Has anyone heard of Noonbarra kelpies in Australia? I bought my puppy from them and one of their training methods is the down/stay command to teach the dog to calm down and that the owner is the leader. As soon as the puppy pops up, you position them back in the down mode. Here is the video on how it should be done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8HgKayBDn4&feature=youtu.be

However, my dog appears to hate this exercise. He would twist around or roll around and try to bite my on the hand or arm. It's really hard to control him now as he is 16 weeks and stronger/bigger than before. Do you guys think this method will lead to aggression? I've noticed that many customers posted on the website with positive reviews about this down/stay method and how good their kelpies have been. Is my dog just a unique or different case compared to the majority of kelpies from Noonbarra?

Can you guys offer me your thoughts regarding this kind of exercise / training??? I'm very perplexed by this method - it's a kind of dominance training right?

Do you guys think I should try a different method? My puppy knows how to do sit and down perfectly and he can hold the sit position for quite long until i give the release word. I have been doing the triangle of temptation before each meal and I've been teaching him to sit and wait until my release word if he wants a toy, treat, chew bones, go out etc. In terms of down, he can hold it for about 10-15 seconds right now below his threshold. Would it work better if I get him to do a down first then release him at 15 seconds (with lots of praises in between and a treat at 15 seconds them release him). Then I gradually increase the down/stay by one second at a time?
 

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https://youtu.be/wesm2OpE_2c

Here is the Kikopup way to teach calmness - and absolutely reward based.

https://youtu.be/Vk4PPcE1CqY

And here is her Stay tutorial though when I watched it she starts with training position changes.

https://youtu.be/ksBLKi6lj1s

This Sit Stay Tutorial also applies for the Down Stay.

So you can practically do as you already suggested. Increase stay second by second (and sometimes reward the dog earlier).

The Noonbarra guy isn't really positive. The puppy does not choose to stay down because it wants to, it stays down because attempts to leave are shot down each time. It learns that attempts to leave are futile. The method also teaches the dog to be passive. Since your puppy fights this method, I would not use it.
 

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I definitely would not use this method. When Levi was a puppy, in one of his classes, we were taught that you should roll the puppy on his side/back so that you could check him over. Well, the second I tried to do it with Levi, he started fighting like I'd never seen. The trainer quickly said "Don't do it. If he's afraid/uncomfortable, don't force him, it can quickly erode your relationship".

I don't train my dogs to do anything against their will. As a result, they are quite happy to work. :) The videos @FinnAlva posted are super helpful.
 

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You could probably teach a down that way but why would you? You'll almost certainly get a more enthusiastic down and have a better relationship with your dog using gentler reward-based methods as described above.
 

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Hi Tange,

I would definitely ditch this method. It's not working for you. It's not working for your dog. And, plus, there are much better training alternatives.

A kelpie is a dog. I really doubt that you need to follow any special kelpie-based training methods. Just because you got your puppy for this breeder, that doesn't mean that he's the end-all, be-all expert in how to train your dog.

Lastly, I think it's probably pretty confusing for both you and your dog to be using both positive reinforcement and dominance-based training techniques simultaneously. I'd go with the former. :)
 

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I use aspects of what is in this video but in a different order and it's always worked for me.

First I teach sit and down and up by gently placing them in the correct position and then rewarding. After a couple of times the dog associates the position with the reward and I don't need to touch him anymore.

Second I teach stay with the sit since I find that that is much much easier than the down stay.

For teaching the down stay I tell them to go down and give them the stay command. When they try to get up I do more or less what the guy in the video does, I use a negative marker and prevent them from standing. When they calm down and relax I treat.

Really what you're teaching by holding them down is the same as what you do when making them sit before feeding them. If they want something, they need to work for it, in this case, stay down.
 

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Yes, confrontational methods (such as pinning or holding a dog down) can lead to an increase in aggression. They're also simply very stressful. Good for you for looking for better options!

Compulsion training, including physically manipulating a dog to try to show it the "correct" behavior, is pretty outdated. Compulsion training tends to slow down learning, meaning that dogs learn a lot faster via other methods and tend to retain what they've learned for a longer period of time. Karen Pryor's Don't Shoot the Dog is a good book that covers the benefits of choice-based training more thoroughly. The video links provided above are good tutorials for better methods!
 

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Or another book, Gail Fisher's The Thinking Dog: Crossover to Clicker Training, which also has good advice on why mixing up dog training methods can be confusing for your dog (and detrimental to your training).
 

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If you have a good healthy relationship with your dogs and they're used to being physically manipulated by you its not aversive. I just went downstairs and had Leia sit, and lifted up her front paws to pull her down (this is something I've done maybe 2x before and not in the last 2 months). She just looked at me as if to say, "what are you doing", she didn't resist or try to bite me.

I wouldn't ever do this to a strangers dog obviously but I think when it comes to our own pets, moving them around and positioning them is not aversive. Is it aversive to clean their ears or check for fleas or to pull out splinters? That depends on the dog I guess but it shouldn't be.

As a dog owner you are a pillar of safety and security for your dog, and they should be accustomed to you touching them. Maybe it makes them nervous the first time but thats why you need to be gentle and reassuring, over time it will become completely normal. Lots of dogs who freak out the very first time you shoot a gun near them grow up to be excellent hunting dogs who don't even flinch at the sound of gun fire.
 

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@Esand - Compulsion training is not necessarily the same as aversive (lots of overlap, but the terms are not synonymous). Being physically handled is something dogs can be conditioned to feel positively about, which is great for husbandry purposes. @tange could probably help their dog feel better about being pushed or held down by using extensive counter-conditioning, which might be a good idea if there were some reason to put that work in. Since being forcibly restrained in a "down" position isn't something my dog is likely to encounter in her normal life, I personally put my efforts elsewhere, but we could find lots of examples of ways that people make handling feel good to dogs, and good reasons for doing so.

Compulsion training refers to training where dogs have limited choices. That includes training where certain choices will result in "corrections" (AKA P+), but also training that relies on physically manipulating a dog. In training terminology, physically manipulating or otherwise compelling a dog into a particular position is called "molding." Molding works, just like most attempts at dog training work...persuading a dog to change her behavior is usually pretty easy, especially when we're talking simple behaviors. But it has lots of drawbacks. The more complicated or precise the target behavior is, the less effective molding tends to be. It's also hugely handler-dependent, which means that handler participation has to be carefully faded (getting from "dog is forced to perform behavior" to "dog eagerly and willingly chooses to perform behavior" takes effort and skill). It tends to take much longer than methods that involve more thinking/participation on the part of the dog, and produces less precise and motivated behaviors. Plus, as with all compulsion training, there's an heightened risk of fallout. That's what the OP is experiencing. Attempts to physically manipulate her puppy are producing stress, opposition reflex, and potential aggression, AKA behavioral fallout. Molding that triggers an opposition reflex (or deeper distress) isn't effective and can have unintended negative effects.

Again, molding isn't necessarily aversive. There are plenty of benign uses for molding...for instance, practicing heelwork against a wall, so that the dog is painlessly forced into heel position. That method is typically slower than shaping (where the dog is actively engaged in choosing her position from the start), but a whole lot easier for many people (because shaping that kind of precise and complex behavior in an open environment is also tricky). I don't have a problem with molding in principle, though I think it's frequently slower and less effective than shaping; I have serious objections to it when it's producing the kind of fallout the OP describes.
@tange
 

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@SnackRat

Would crate training for house breaking and using a leash for walking be compulsive techniques? In both cases you're trying to build behaviors by removing choices.
 

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If the leash is used as part of training (i.e. as part of a plan to change behaviors), then yes, probably. I use a leash, but don't typically use it as a training tool. That is, I don't have a target behavior that I'm using the leash to help my dog learn. So a leash is not compulsion training as I use it, but might be as someone else uses it. Pulling on the leash to compel a dog to come, lifting the dog's neck with the leash to try to force the dog to sit, popping the leash to issue a punishment...the list is probably endless.

Think of the wall example above. A wall is not in itself compulsive to a dog. But using a wall to force a dog into a heel position is compulsion training, albeit very mild in terms of stress/aversion. There's a difference between closing my dog in the house (where walls prevent her from roaming freely down the street) and using a wall to try to train her to heel -- the first is management, the second compulsion/molding.
 

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When I said crate training for house breaking I was referring to the fact that the idea behind crate training is that dogs don't want to soil their 'den' and using the crate we remove the option for them to do anything else which leads to them 'holding it' much longer than they would otherwise.
 

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OP's original concern regarding force for teaching a command is a good question. In my experience, it depends on certain variables such as whether the dog somewhat already knows the desired behavior requested, among many other variables.

Starting a dog with a soft approach and finding the most opportunistic moment to teach a behavior AKA setting the dog up for success has its advantages long term. However, once the dog knows the command and desired behavior and opts not to make the proper choice then correction ( force) might be required with some dogs. Overall I have found that if a handler uses the element of anticipation ( positive ), they can increase the proficiency of the dog's adherence to your commands. A scrap of food is the way most people start building this anticipation but all too many never progress past this point. You should be aiming for engagement with you as the ultimate reward which nobody or anything else can duplicate.

Your pup is 4 months old and full of piss and vinegar and has an attention span of about 3 seconds for most things. Find the characteristics/motivations of your pup and use those to your advantage while appreciating the capacities of your dog's age.
 

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I agree with Drivedog that the conversation has strayed from the OP's original question (while strongly disagreeing that some dogs "require" force or compulsion). Sorry, @tange!

As for the crate question, I don't typically view crates as part of compulsion training, though I see your point. I probably mis-spoke in describing compulsion as being about limiting choices...compulsion is about limiting choices by trying to control a dog (via force, physical manipulation, threat, coercion, or intimidation), while positive reinforcement training (loosely defined) is about limiting choices by controlling reinforcement (via management, antecedent environmental arrangement, etc.). Certainly, if the function of a crate is to physically compel a dog to hold its waste, then we might be able to classify it as compulsive to some degree. Most of the time though, compulsion training involves heavy handler involvement, because release from pressure is just as important as the application of pressure...crates rarely function that way, and thus usually fall under management instead of training.
@tange, since I think I derailed your thread more than intended, and am probably making dog training seem MUCH more complicated than it really is, what are your thoughts on proceeding with your puppy? Any further questions? I think you are doing a great job identifying that this method isn't working for your dog, and I hope you find a method that works better for both of you. In fact, looking at the video you posted, I can see that a lot of the puppies are very stressed out by this method, even though they may be more subtle in expressing their discomfort than your puppy...hope lots of those puppies also end up with caring owners who seek out something better.
 

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I agree with Drivedog that the conversation has strayed from the OP's original question (while strongly disagreeing that some dogs "require" force or compulsion). Sorry, @tange!

As for the crate question, I don't typically view crates as part of compulsion training, though I see your point. I probably mis-spoke in describing compulsion as being about limiting choices...compulsion is about limiting choices by trying to control a dog (via force, physical manipulation, threat, coercion, or intimidation), while positive reinforcement training (loosely defined) is about limiting choices by controlling reinforcement (via management, antecedent environmental arrangement, etc.). Certainly, if the function of a crate is to physically compel a dog to hold its waste, then we might be able to classify it as compulsive to some degree. Most of the time though, compulsion training involves heavy handler involvement, because release from pressure is just as important as the application of pressure...crates rarely function that way, and thus usually fall under management instead of training.
@tange, since I think I derailed your thread more than intended, and am probably making dog training seem MUCH more complicated than it really is, what are your thoughts on proceeding with your puppy? Any further questions? I think you are doing a great job identifying that this method isn't working for your dog, and I hope you find a method that works better for both of you. In fact, looking at the video you posted, I can see that a lot of the puppies are very stressed out by this method, even though they may be more subtle in expressing their discomfort than your puppy...hope lots of those puppies also end up with caring owners who seek out something better.
Thank you for your response and everyone else's input. I doubt it worked for my dog as he has been struggling for up to 20 minutes each time and I've got scars and bites all over my arms. I tried my method (which I stated in the earlier post) yesterday and today for up to 10-15 seconds per time. I repeat this exercise 3 times a day and he is doing well as I make sure I work below his threshold and give him lots of praise plus some treats in between. When I release him with my "free" command, he doesn't receive a treat so he knows that staying down will earn him treats while releasing him will give him the choice to stand up but won't earn him a treat. I feel that he doesn't do very well with physical force because he is quite stubborn and independent rather than overly affectionate. I'm definitely not complaining because this really helps him with separation anxiety.

He is quite happy to cuddle with me before sleeping time on my rocking chair but I feel that he is more prone to biting me if I'm sitting on the ground next to him because we did the Noonbarra exercise while in that position. This probably means (I assume) that he is uncomfortable with me sitting down next to him because he is anticipating the exercise/training. So what I intend to do from now on is to give him a few kibbles while I'm sitting next to him (give him a small pet) then get up without doing the Noonbarra exercise. Ultimately, he might feel more secure about me sitting on the ground next to him.
 

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tange,

Just a knee-jerk reaction but it might help your situation if you trained and worked with your dog using impulse control exercises. Keep in mind as I mentioned earlier that a 4 month old pup has plenty of impulses and desire, especially yours, so it seems.
 
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