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woah! I crate all 4 of my dogs when I am at work and my boyfriend is at work...some day that equals to 9 hours total (the drive to and from as well as the shift) they are happy dogs and STILL sleep sometimes when we are home..they play when they want to play and rest when they want..they are all healthy and very happy. Crating for 8-10 hours is not wrong...
 

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Cri, you're smart and knowledgeable about dogs. I often listen to and respect what you have to say as I think almost all of the time it makes sense. This time, allow me to disagree. Believe what you want about restricting dogs for 8-10 hours in a cage. If this will clear your conscience and make you feel better, so be it.
For me, who has had dogs all of my life, I cannot accept it as being normal. I cannot believe that people put their dogs in basements all day long either. What is this, 16th Century France?
 

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Cri, you're smart and knowledgeable about dogs. I often listen to and respect what you have to say as I think almost all of the time it makes sense. This time, allow me to disagree. Believe what you want about restricting dogs for 8-10 hours in a cage. If this will clear your conscience and make you feel better, so be it.
For me, who has had dogs all of my life, I cannot accept it as being normal. I cannot believe that people put their dogs in basements all day long either. What is this, 16th Century France?
Its that, or my dogs are euthanized. Now who doesn't make sence?

Confining a dog to a house or a yard is not NORMAL either. Perhaps we should all let our dogs run free...

besides there is a HUGE difference between, normal, ideal and CRUEL.



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Perhaps you would like to walk us all through den instincts in dogs and explain why they don't apply to a crate? Would you let a human baby run around the house unsupervised so it can injure itself? One of my friends dogs DIED because he refused to crate him while he was a at work.

Terriers also have mandatory separation when unsupervised. Pit bulls and JRT are notorious for killing each other when the owner is absent. Ask ANY knowledgeable breeder... I own terriers, I would never put them in that position.

Tippy will eat walls unless she is sedated or IN A CRATE. Crate training is the only thing that has helped her anxiety...because its her den and safe.

Iam honestly completely insulted.



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Perhaps you would like to walk us all through den instincts in dogs and explain why they don't apply to a crate? Would you let a human baby run around the house unsupervised so it can injure itself? One of my friends dogs DIED because he refused to crate him while he was a at work.

Terriers also have mandatory separation when unsupervised. Pit bulls and JRT are notorious for killing each other when the owner is absent. Ask ANY knowledgeable breeder... I own terriers, I would never put them in that position.

Tippy will eat walls unless she is sedated or IN A CRATE. Crate training is the only thing that has helped her anxiety...because its her den and safe.

Iam honestly completely insulted.
Cri, thanks for coming to my rescue on this matter. I can honestly say that I was alot more than just insulted by Mimi's response. i think I did a good job of holding myself back in the response to that coment. The more I think about it the more I realize that the large majority of dog owners have full time jobs, and also goto sleep at night. So to suggest confining your dog to a certain area while you are away is such a cruel thing is way off base. (in my opinion) I am a new dog owner and enjoying it very much. I love my little Fizgig! Although he's quickly getting to be no so little very fast. I came on this forum to learn and get advise from experienced people. Up untill this comment it has all been very positive. But hey Life moves on. At this point I will continue to allow my dog full access to the basement, and as he gets older he should learn to hold his bladder. Once that time comes then he should be able to wait untill I get home to do his buisness.

Mimi I understand that you think it is cruel to treat a dog this way. I also understand that this is just YOUR opinion. I will continue to do what I do with my dog, and fully beleive that I am doing the right thing and not being cruel to my animal. So at this time lets just let things be the way they are and end this debate agreeing to disagree. I am sure that you probably have good experience and advise on other subjects, and look forward to hearing everyones input.

Tim
 

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Your welcome.:)

To me Cruel is a very strong word..it insinuates abuse...people who starve and beat their dogs are cruel..not people who confine their dogs for their own safety.

We are all welcome to our opinions, whether they be educated or not. But you can't really expect people to not react when you say som'thing that strong.

Also weres the line? Is 6 hours ok ..but 8 is cruel? Is two days a week ok ...but 4 is too much?

Is it ok to keep birds and fish and reptiles in cages? Not many people will question that but they will call a crate a "cage".

Mine are in crates 6 hours a day 3 days a week and I think if my dogs could talk, they'd pick that over dying at the pound anyday. :)



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Well, to be honest, I don't know much about crates, never used them, I do know that dogs view them as their dens though, and like being in them, but not all dogs like them, I just keep my dog confined to her room when we're out, and she does fine. But one thing about crates though, my vet told me I shouldn't keep my dog in a crate more than 4-5 hours straight, so I dunno.
 

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Well, to be honest, I don't know much about crates, never used them, I do know that dogs view them as their dens though, and like being in them, but not all dogs like them, I just keep my dog confined to her room when we're out, and she does fine. But one thing about crates though, my vet told me I shouldn't keep my dog in a crate more than 4-5 hours straight, so I dunno.
yup... and you'll find vets that say 10 hours is fine and then other vets who say not to use them at all. Vets will also tell you science diet is the best food ever and raw diet will kill your dog and everything in between.:rolleyes:


Personally, I don't trust vets for behavior or nutrition advice, medical...I'll believe it 99% of the time... but the truth is they are trained very superficially in behavior and nutrition...if at all. Ask a vet without a behaviorist background for training advice and listen to the answer if you ever need a good laugh.



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Actually my vet also has a degree in animal behavior, and used to be a quite successful PR trainer :D he's the guy I trust the most when it comes to horses and dogs :D he also gave me quite a few recipes for making my own dog food :D, he's uber cool :D

But anyhow, I don't think I can crate a dog for 10 hours a day, AND the night as well, seems a bit too long, but that's maybe cause I never used them.
 

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Actually my vet also has a degree in animal behavior, and used to be a quite successful PR trainer :D he's the guy I trust the most when it comes to horses and dogs :D he also gave me quite a few recipes for making my own dog food :D, he's uber cool :D

But anyhow, I don't think I can crate a dog for 10 hours a day, AND the night as well, seems a bit too long, but that's maybe cause I never used them.
And no one here is... Tim is using an entire room for confinement. Mine are 6 hours max... but if my schedual changed where it would be longer then it would be longer.

Also was your dog a puppy when you asked about it? 4-5 hours is the general recomendation for puppies...6-8MAX for adults.

Critter free roams and Chili has the kitchen and laundry room.

The other three all have mild to severe SA and crate training allows them to stay sane. None of mine are crated at night but Tippy does choose to sleep in her crate herself. In fact the dogs frequently go into the crates unprompted...to nap, to chew a toy etc etc.


I'm not saying everyone should use them on every dog... If your dog doesn't need one kudos to you...a lot of my rescues have issues and do need them. Until som'one has been in that situation they shouldn't throw stones... :p

If my dogs wouldnt hurt themselves I wouldn't need it... my objection is to the statement that confining a dog is cruel...

IMO there are far worse things done in the name of breeding and training, and for much sillier reasons. :)

ETA: heres a video that a few months old...shows how much they hate their crates. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aw6Lw-4UZjA ignore the mess...we had just moved furniture and crap around.



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I wasn't saying you guys do that, but I do know people who keep the dogs locked up in their crate about 20 hours a day, which is just plain too much if you ask me.

Hmm, it was when my Bullmastiff was 2 years old, he hated it as well, and since our Poodle also hated it, we just gave up on them and now we just confine Lucky to her room when we're out. I never needed a crate for house training though, everything usually goes quite smoothly, I guess I'm lucky when it comes to this, but yeah, crating ain't cruel, there are far worse things you can do to a dog (I read on the newspaper about a guy who tortured his dog, burned him, and then hanged him...I lost faith in humanity after reading that)
 

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There are long time prisoners who do not want to be released from prison. They too feel secure in their cage/prison/den/crate!!
 

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There are long time prisoners who do not want to be released from prison. They too feel secure in their cage/prison/den/crate!!

key word is secure...not tortured...not scared...its familiar...and THEY LIKE IT....you feel secure in your home don't you? In your room? On your bed?

Are your dogs allowed to leave your home whenever they please? Is that not confinement?

until you can answer all the questions I posed at you in previous posts intelligently Iam seriously done with this. Please back up what you are saying.

Dogs are NOT humans. You are ignoring that fact very blatently. So I ask you again...explain den instincts and why they wouldn't pertain to a crate or a small room?

disagreeing is FINE like I said before, but to tell people they are being cruel to their animals is downright rude and in this case ignorant. Good day.



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"I really find anything that keeps the dog in isolation or restricted for ANY period of time to be cruel."
The above is MY opinion to which I am entitled. This is a forum where each and everyone contributes their experiences, feelings and thoughts. I don't owe you, or anyone for that matter, an explanation about Den instincts which has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Please don't patronise me.
 

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"I really find anything that keeps the dog in isolation or restricted for ANY period of time to be cruel."
The above is MY opinion to which I am entitled. This is a forum where each and everyone contributes their experiences, feelings and thoughts. I don't owe you, or anyone for that matter, an explanation about Den instincts which has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Please don't patronise me.

Then please refrain from being rude and insulting. YOu can't say som'thing like that and not expect a reaction...any other forum you would have been torn to bits..I urge you to post your opinion on a much older dog forum and I bet the house and the car that you will get many many many similar responses to mine.

Den instincts have EVERYTHING to do with confinement...its not off topic at all, if you don't understand its relavence just say so.


Its also MY opinion that yours is based on complete ignorance...as you have just proven. I don't honestly understand how you can so strongly dislike som'thing you know nothing about.

I of course had many many paragraphs of posts explaining why crates and confinement are neccessary while you simply repeated your unfounded opinion over and over even though it was clearly upsetting people.

Your welcome to your opinion and i've asked multiple times for you to explain why you feel the way you do... you simply say your opinion again with no explaination.....

Unless your dogs are NEVER confined in any way...you have violated your own definition...which is my point.


isolation or confinement is cruel"

So kennels are cruel? Vet offices? Pounds? Shelters? Isolation is cruel? So no one can go to work? you can't leave a dog alone in a room for an hour or two?...Or go to the store for 5 minutes? Or in an x pen? a bitch in a whelping box? Seriously...you have to be kidding. No one can meet your anti cruelty criteria.


the real burning question...
where are your dogs when your at work?



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My dear Cri.. who do you call ignorant? You have given excuse after excuse to UndeadKnight about how long one should leave dogs in a crate..- it wasn’t 8-10 hours, more like 5-6 hours... and Vets know nothing about dog behaviour... that crating is a good thing, that they love it because dog’s instinct is to liken it to a den, etc... What makes you an expert in these matters? The only time I saw a dog in a crate was when I took Mimi for her first grooming session. I was told she was in the cage for 1 hour awaiting her turn!!!! I NEVER took her back!! She was terrified, horrified, shaking and slept the whole day after her ordeal. In my country we do not use crates. These are used for feral animals. Domestic animals do not belong in crates. Go tell an Englishman or a Frenchman about keeping their dogs in crates and see what they will tell you. Just think about it... how much exercise can a dog get in a crate?? You said they sleep 16 hours a day.. (you changed that to ‘more or less’ when challenged by UndeadKnight) .. are they wooden? They don’t need to move at all? Stretch? Stand? Walk? For your information, my dogs are with me 24 hours a day. When I used to work, they were in the house free. They never made a mess or hurt themselves (Pomeranian, Poodle and a Jack Russell). They got along fine. Maybe they got along fine because we never restricted them. They felt secure and were happy, content and loved animals. And yes, I go to the shops and I go to the Restaurant and go to the movies and go to parties. My dogs are happy to wait at home without any hassles. They are well exercised, well socialised, well fed, well cared for and therefore they are satisfied and content. We are not aggressive people and neither are they aggressive animals. They do not misbehave. To answer simply to your questions are kennels, pounds, shelters, isolation, cruel? YES. TO ME THEY ARE!!!!
 

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Mimi ,You isolate your dogs in your home when you are away. I also isolate my dog in my home when away. Only difference is I isolate my dog in the basement because he is a puppy and and it is a 100% safe zone for him. Your dogs are trained and are fine in your home having free roam. My 12 week old puppy absoluely would not be ok having free roam of my house untill he is trained a little better and would be safe. Weather its in a large basement or free run of the house there is no difference. If your dogs are with you 24 hours a day that great. Realistly the majority of dog owners do not have that luxury and needs to keep there animals safe and there homes in tact. I'm not trying to argue with you Mimi, just trying to point out the realistic facts of life for what I beleive to be the majority of dogs/owners. Its the way it has to be and will be for millions of dogs/owners out there. If this is cruel then mabye we should not have domesticated dogs in the first place.

Tim
 

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Some dogs need crates to keep them from destroying things, getting out of the yard and getting HIT BY A CAR, etc. And I am sorry some vets take lots of courses on animal behavior as well as the medical part...its a little rude to generalize ALL vets as not being experts on animal behavior....
 

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pawz..the greater majority do not. If you think they do, I'd like to know where you get that info.. I never said all vets weren't experts, and I fail to see where saying som'one is not an expert is rude, I simply pointed out that vets give bad advice all the time reguarding behavior and nutrition as those courses are very minimally covered to become a veterinarian.





Mimi...


:::face palm:::


dead god this is like banging my head against a wall.

It would have been nice to know that your are not american when this began... crating is not done often in europe...but then again neither is spay and neuter and many breeds are banned so thats neither here nor there.

I don't know where your seeing me give "excuses" about hours in the crate...I used ten hours as an extreme example in many posts never saying it was ok... Undead gave his imput and I simply confirmed that that time is the ussual recomendation for puppies...I don't see where the excuse is?? Quote and paste please?

Your dog was histerical in the cage before it is not TRAINED to be comfortable in it... There is a process...of course he was scared. He was in a LOUD WIERD PLACE in a cage he'd never seen before. Nothing more, nothing less.

Im sorry you had such a bad experience but seriously thats like saying a german shepard growled at you so they are ALL BAD and no one should have them. Seriously.

yes 16 hours is an average...how did he challenge me? He said his dog sleeps less... dogs aren't robots... Critter sleeps 20 hours a day at time because shes old... That number is a very accepted number by the dog community...I didn't think I had to explain that its not 16 hours EXACTLY...in fact it should be to the absolute second!!! No more no less...come on seriously?


The crates are big enough for a dog to stretch out and move around yes... They can stand..sit...stretch out etc etc theres also room for bowls....if you watched my video I posted you would have seen that and seen how the dogs go in and out willingly.... Have you been envisioning a dog in a crate that it can't move in??

I honestly think that allowing your JRT to be loose with other dogs alone is completely irresonsible. JRT are notorious for killing other dogs... Their your dogs, and your welcome to risk it but its generally frowned upon here in the US. I know several JRT breeders and this is a HUGE no no.

All mine get along fine so I don't know what your insinuating there. No one fights with each other... Mine are also well fed socialized exercised etc.. I still don't get your point there.

SA is a chemical imbalance and has nothing to do with training it "out of the dog" they are like mini mental patients when no one is around. YOu can't train a dog not to have SA...you can simply find a way to minimize the triggers...The den is calming...the only other option is drugs. Im not putting my dogs on drugs.


What would you do with a dog with severe SA? Quit your job, never leave home? Euthanize the dog? There are very few options with a dog like that.



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