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Ok, I was in bed not feeling so hot yesterday morning and caught the last half of a dog show (I do enjoy watching these sometimes). I guess I want to post this because I want to hear other opinions about the two things (breeding and showing). Let me be honest first by saying I used to hate dog shows because of the unnatural requirements of some breeds, such as docking tails and cropping ears and stripping coats, then realized these breeds had those standards when it was originally used for hunting, herding, etc for different safety issues. However, is it not true that cropped ears only allow for more debris to enter inside the ear? I have also heard that dogs with "floppy" ears get more ear infections because it traps dirt.

The other thing I have seen that I cannot stand is overclipping the nails to get them to the "show standard length". I do not care if people say dogs do not feel it, they have some kind of reaction when they are quicked and that is enough for me to do not do it on purpose to an animal, if you have neglected to keep your dogs nails that short for show thats your own fault (if this is false info on standard nail length then I just feel down right sad for the dog I watched go through this because of that "reason").

Finally breeding... I want to know the real process a breeder of a "show quality" dog goes through. Before breeding, during gestation, and after the puppies are born (both to the mother, father, and pups). TY ahead of time :)
 

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I just looked at another post and found a link regarding to over breeding and inbreeding of pedigree dogs...This only reconfirms my issues with breeders....a judge for dog shows admitted to breeding a grandfather with a granddaughter....how the heck is this excusable? Genetics is genetics..people or animals. I want to know as well when breeders say they have genetic tests done, why do you not realize just because two parents are healthy and show no problems it is possible for an offspring to have an issue (maybe not as common, but can still happen).
 

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I had never heard of the nail thing....YIKES


I don't know much about the show world but I do personally think its silly. And thats my nice way of saying it.

Have you watched the BBC documentary on purebred dogs? Its on youtube in 6 or so parts...

I have mixed feelings about linebreeding. I own linebred animals (snakes) and have bred related animals. But Reptiles certainly are not at a level where linebreeding is an issue YET. I don't really like the idea in dogs tho...and its the same concept...isolate desireable traits...it just seesm so double edged in dogs tho...you get the structure you want, but the eye problems you don't want...the dogs are so inbred you just can't win anymore.

Many wild populations of many species are closely related due to barriers in terrain...so this does happen in nature.

Not trying to defend PB dog breeding practices . Im not a fan of PB dogs personally and seeing what the last 100 years have done to som' of these breeds...well...yikes again.



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I had never heard of the nail thing....YIKES


I don't know much about the show world but I do personally think its silly. And thats my nice way of saying it.

Have you watched the BBC documentary on purebred dogs? Its on youtube in 6 or so parts...

I have mixed feelings about linebreeding. I own linebred animals (snakes) and have bred related animals. But Reptiles certainly are not at a level where linebreeding is an issue YET. I don't really like the idea in dogs tho...and its the same concept...isolate desireable traits...it just seesm so double edged in dogs tho...you get the structure you want, but the eye problems you don't want...the dogs are so inbred you just can't win anymore.

Many wild populations of many species are closely related due to barriers in terrain...so this does happen in nature.

Not trying to defend PB dog breeding practices . Im not a fan of PB dogs personally and seeing what the last 100 years have done to som' of these breeds...well...yikes again.
The bbc thing is what I watched lol. It was posted on another topic on the forum here. I was shocked to see the GSD issue, that was clearly noticable. I also have NEVER heard of the issue with the little king charles spaniels. It just goes to show that people have bred pets with issues even before noticing these issues.

Wild animal inbreeding does happen but not as often as you would think. Dispersal of males occurs in most species to keep this from happening. Few species stick around and the effects of inbreeding are not as obvious as those in dogs, cats and humans. But yes it does occur and when it happens a lot of genetic effects occur (albinos, more body parts, etc).

I really hate hearing "I love the breed so much that is why I breed". To me if you love an animal you won't over breed it or put it through such turmoil just to get pups, you also won't inbreed it. I worked for a vet who had a client that bred st bernards, she would over breed her female until she had internal bleeding or just put her bitches down when they could not physically take having another litter. so sad
 

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Oh my....poor Saint Bernard

I guess I was refering mostly to reptiles. There are many snakes that the entire species is confined to small areas.

Yeah the king charles spaniel thing....wow..just wow huh? I think thats the most popular small breed in the UK

Yeah," I breed because I love the breed.... "

*sigh*

No matter the quality of pups you produce I don't understand how a one can ignore the over population issue.

Back to snakes LOL....Thats why I don't breed ball pythons...the amount of unwanted Ball pythons is staggering...sure I could breed the desireable morphs...and then rationalize that its not MY snakes being discarded. Breeders use that line all the time...MY DOGS aren't the discarded ones...



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Oh my....poor Saint Bernard

I guess I was refering mostly to reptiles. There are many snakes that the entire species is confined to small areas.

Yeah the king charles spaniel thing....wow..just wow huh? I think thats the most popular small breed in the UK

Yeah," I breed because I love the breed.... "

*sigh*

No matter the quality of pups you produce I don't understand how a one can ignore the over population issue.

Back to snakes LOL....Thats why I don't breed ball pythons...the amount of unwanted Ball pythons is staggering...sure I could breed the desireable morphs...and then rationalize that its not MY snakes being discarded. Breeders use that line all the time...MY DOGS aren't the discarded ones...
Ah yes I do not know much about reptiles but do know there are reptiles which have very small living quarters! I wonder...does inbreeding not effect offspring of reptiles? I thought the 2 headed snakes and turtles and whatnot were due to inbreeding or bad genes. hmmmmm might be something fun to research!

I cannot stand this overpopulation issue!!!!! I also cannot stand how breeders think its ok for MUTTS (which btw typically live longer and have less diseases than pb, I would know, all of my pets in life have extended the typical age of pb) to be euthanized because they are mutts and are not "as high of quality" :eyeroll: I guess I do not understand the mentality. Then to require contracts stating the new owners of the pups will not breed....wtf is that, double standard much? (I know not all of them do it but it does happen)

BTW my vet turned the woman away when she brought in a perfectly healthy st bernard bitch to be put down.
 

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Ah yes I do not know much about reptiles but do know there are reptiles which have very small living quarters! I wonder...does inbreeding not effect offspring of reptiles? I thought the 2 headed snakes and turtles and whatnot were due to inbreeding or bad genes. hmmmmm might be something fun to research!

I cannot stand this overpopulation issue!!!!! I also cannot stand how breeders think its ok for MUTTS (which btw typically live longer and have less diseases than pb, I would know, all of my pets in life have extended the typical age of pb) to be euthanized because they are mutts and are not "as high of quality" :eyeroll: I guess I do not understand the mentality. Then to require contracts stating the new owners of the pups will not breed....wtf is that, double standard much? (I know not all of them do it but it does happen)

BTW my vet turned the woman away when she brought in a perfectly healthy st bernard bitch to be put down.

Its the human obsession with perfection. I personally don't understand it. Its the same with material things, people want name brands and fancy cars. Its ingrained into us. :(



The double heads in reptiles are simply conjoined twins. Its extreeeeeemly rare that they survive.

Twins are very common in reptiles, I've seen many conjoined twins, but none were viable.

Also incubation temperatures affect development...you could have babies that are genetically sound...but are born with birth defects...because they were incubated to hot (too cold ussually just kills the embryo) For example cornsnakes are often born with "incubation kinks" and go on to produce normal babies... or the second clutch of eggs from the same pairing (incubated properly) will have no kinked babies.

Boa constrictors and vipers are live birth (so momma snakes regulates the temperature) and I've never, not once, seen birth defects in live born snakes. A few preemies tho. :)

Reptile breeding is still in its infancy compared to dogs. Im sure after 100 years of linebreeding there will be issues in reptiles too...

Linebreeding is not the problem if its done right and not constantly...you have to keep in mind that purebred dogs are "closed" and you can't outcross...with exotic animals you can always bring in a wild collected animal to outcross to. Thus you can line breed for four or more generations (not that I recommend that lol) and then outcross to new blood and get genetically sound animals (am I making sence)

I think PB dogs would be in WAAAY better shape if outcrossing was allowed. Since if not these breeds will continue to slowly widdle away their genetic diversity and nature will ultimately decide that its had enough

There are people already speculating that this genetically can't go on for much longer. They believe that Dogs are going to start to be born sterile and that many breeds in the pure form will die out. It sounds like a reasonable theory to me.



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AGREED! I would not mind never having another PB dog. The out breeding thing did make sense (we learned about out breeding in animal behavior) It is part of dispersal lol. Of course you always have the chance of that dispersing males offspring dispersing back to the original colony and breeding with a relative (but this rarely occurs!). I still hope a breeder and show person (? LOL) respond with their opinion
 

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Where to start.....dog shows are just that, where people show off their breeding stock. We show to show others, and ourselves, whether or not our dogs conform to the written standard for that breed.

A grandfather to granddaughter is really not inbreeding. It's called a linebreeding. Generally, that type of breeding you have only one common ancestor. If you know your dog's pedigree well, you can do that type of breeding to bring forward the traits those two possess. If you don't know your pedigree well, you could be bringing forward undesirable traits.

Knowing your pedigree before ANY breeding is essential.

Genetics are a crap shoot in all animals, including humans. When we deal with genes, we have to realize that stuff can happen. Does that mean that nobody should breed? (I'm including humans in this) Of course not. Again, you do the genetic tests that you can and try to make the best decisions you can based on them.

Reputable breeders do not guarantee that nothing will happen. They can't. They aren't God. What a reputable breeder will do is care and help their puppy people as much as they can WHEN a problem arises. Notice I said when. If you breed long enough, something is always going to pop up. It's inevitable.

There are all types of breeders, some good some bad. Just like there are all types of pet owners, some good some bad. I think we all can agree that the St. Bernard breeder wasn't the norm and wasn't a good one.

I've never lost a female from having a litter. If I had to choose between the female and the puppies, I would choose the mom and lose the puppies. Thankfully, I've never had to make that decision.

I have Labs so I don't have to worry about docking, stripping or cropping ears.
 

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Where to start.....dog shows are just that, where people show off their breeding stock. We show to show others, and ourselves, whether or not our dogs conform to the written standard for that breed.

A grandfather to granddaughter is really not inbreeding. It's called a linebreeding. Generally, that type of breeding you have only one common ancestor. If you know your dog's pedigree well, you can do that type of breeding to bring forward the traits those two possess. If you don't know your pedigree well, you could be bringing forward undesirable traits.

Knowing your pedigree before ANY breeding is essential.

Genetics are a crap shoot in all animals, including humans. When we deal with genes, we have to realize that stuff can happen. Does that mean that nobody should breed? (I'm including humans in this) Of course not. Again, you do the genetic tests that you can and try to make the best decisions you can based on them.

Reputable breeders do not guarantee that nothing will happen. They can't. They aren't God. What a reputable breeder will do is care and help their puppy people as much as they can WHEN a problem arises. Notice I said when. If you breed long enough, something is always going to pop up. It's inevitable.

There are all types of breeders, some good some bad. Just like there are all types of pet owners, some good some bad. I think we all can agree that the St. Bernard breeder wasn't the norm and wasn't a good one.

I've never lost a female from having a litter. If I had to choose between the female and the puppies, I would choose the mom and lose the puppies. Thankfully, I've never had to make that decision.

I have Labs so I don't have to worry about docking, stripping or cropping ears.
Can you tell I have NEVER bred nor bought from a breeder either LOL. I guess a big question that runs through my head is why do I hear many breeders insult mutts, and also right now in this horrible economy when hundreds of thousands of dogs are going to pounds and losing their lives, WHY are breeders breeding?! I do not think there is an excuse I would accept to be honest, I am not trying to be rude...just honest. Dogs are dying, even cats at high rates and its depressing...then you get someone posting up puppies for sale!!! Why? To me, this is the work of selfish breeders...MONEY MONEY MONEY is what I see when I see this.
 

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Can you tell I have NEVER bred nor bought from a breeder either LOL. I guess a big question that runs through my head is why do I hear many breeders insult mutts, and also right now in this horrible economy when hundreds of thousands of dogs are going to pounds and losing their lives, WHY are breeders breeding?! I do not think there is an excuse I would accept to be honest, I am not trying to be rude...just honest. Dogs are dying, even cats at high rates and its depressing...then you get someone posting up puppies for sale!!! Why? To me, this is the work of selfish breeders...MONEY MONEY MONEY is what I see when I see this.

I've asked this many many times on many many forums and I can give you the common answer...

"our dogs are not the problem, our dogs do not end up in shelters, because we screen homes and take back unwanted dogs"

Rescue people feel that breeders pups are taking away homes from homeless mutts and Breeders feel that their buyers wouldn't get a puppy unless it was purebred and thus they are not taking away homes.



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I've asked this many many times on many many forums and I can give you the common answer...

"our dogs are not the problem, our dogs do not end up in shelters, because we screen homes and take back unwanted dogs"

Rescue people feel that breeders pups are taking away homes from homeless mutts and Breeders feel that their buyers wouldn't get a puppy unless it was purebred and thus they are not taking away homes.
That is all exactly what I have heard as well. Its so sad :( I always say "be the cure not the cause fix your pet" I wanna make a shirt that says that LOL and maybe put statistics on it for how many animals lose their lives. I also cannot stand people who want to spend hundreds of dollars on a pure bred and refuse to rescue a mutt.
 

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That is all exactly what I have heard as well. Its so sad :( I always say "be the cure not the cause fix your pet" I wanna make a shirt that says that LOL and maybe put statistics on it for how many animals lose their lives. I also cannot stand people who want to spend hundreds of dollars on a pure bred and refuse to rescue a mutt.

You should see all the bumper stickers on the back of my car.

I think some breeders should put alot more thought into the overpop issues but my main beef is with consumers... why on earth would you pay $1500 to get a pug from a pet store.. that makes sence on zero levels to me...

Som' people just like to say how much they spent on their dog. I find it tacky...I mean, if your having a long convo and it comes up...cool...but ..."hey this is Bruno, he was two grand" speaks loudly of a persons character.

Another issue is that a lot of shelter dogs are sick (i can attest to that personally) not everyone wants to deal with that...so they go to a rescue...now most rescues want you to practically give them a blood sample, shave your head and give up your first born to get a dog from them.... I know of many people that tried to adopt, got shot down( for dumb reasons) and then ended up purchasing instead...

I wanted (for my second dog) to rescue greyhounds...but I needed to have a 6foot tall fence around my entire property to get one..thats not even legal in any city I can think of. So I can't get a dog.

I wanted to resuce a parrot but no matter how qualified I was i could not because I own snakes (or dogs too) its absolutely silly...I finally was able to rescue my bird, but it was not from a bird rescue, but a dog one that happened to get a random parrot. But most people would not wait (I waited 6 years) they would just go out and purchase instead.

Personally I dont' see myself ever going through a private rescue...the idea of unanounced home checks and having to notify them when I move and pretty much just having to over the top PROVE over and over that I'm a decent owner is just too much for me.



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You should see all the bumper stickers on the back of my car.

I think some breeders should put alot more thought into the overpop issues but my main beef is with consumers... why on earth would you pay $1500 to get a pug from a pet store.. that makes sence on zero levels to me...

Som' people just like to say how much they spent on their dog. I find it tacky...I mean, if your having a long convo and it comes up...cool...but ..."hey this is Bruno, he was two grand" speaks loudly of a persons character.

Another issue is that a lot of shelter dogs are sick (i can attest to that personally) not everyone wants to deal with that...so they go to a rescue...now most rescues want you to practically give them a blood sample, shave your head and give up your first born to get a dog from them.... I know of many people that tried to adopt, got shot down( for dumb reasons) and then ended up purchasing instead...

I wanted (for my second dog) to rescue greyhounds...but I needed to have a 6foot tall fence around my entire property to get one..thats not even legal in any city I can think of. So I can't get a dog.

I wanted to resuce a parrot but no matter how qualified I was i could not because I own snakes (or dogs too) its absolutely silly...I finally was able to rescue my bird, but it was not from a bird rescue, but a dog one that happened to get a random parrot. But most people would not wait (I waited 6 years) they would just go out and purchase instead.

Personally I dont' see myself ever going through a private rescue...the idea of unanounced home checks and having to notify them when I move and pretty much just having to over the top PROVE over and over that I'm a decent owner is just too much for me.
I do agree, why would you spend that kind of money? I have rescued a lot of dogs from private parties (like my Glacier and Harvick), the humane society (one chihuahua), the streets (the other chihuahua), and from a private rescue who goes to Mexico (Peyton). Someone told me "thats not rescuing", it is when I am not purchasing an animal from a breeder and I am keeping a dog from going to the pound.

I get the whole getting a sick dog sucks, especially when you already have others...we were afraid that Peyton had Giardia or some kind of serious issue because of his diarrhea and Glacier had a runny nose and discharge (which wound up being a reaction to the old owner smoking). It sucks I wish it were nothing but rainbows and sunshine!

6 ft block wall fences are already done here around the back yard

Rescues..don't even get me started! The chihuahua rescue out here charges 250 for a pup under like 6 or 9 months...come on that is a bit much, just because of its age its 250?! I could understand 150! my personal opinion. And the screening process is dumb.

We are judged because of how many pets we have, even tho we care for them extremely well. Maybe one day the system will be better
 

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I do agree, why would you spend that kind of money? I have rescued a lot of dogs from private parties (like my Glacier and Harvick), the humane society (one chihuahua), the streets (the other chihuahua), and from a private rescue who goes to Mexico (Peyton). Someone told me "thats not rescuing", it is when I am not purchasing an animal from a breeder and I am keeping a dog from going to the pound.

I get the whole getting a sick dog sucks, especially when you already have others...we were afraid that Peyton had Giardia or some kind of serious issue because of his diarrhea and Glacier had a runny nose and discharge (which wound up being a reaction to the old owner smoking). It sucks I wish it were nothing but rainbows and sunshine!

6 ft block wall fences are already done here around the back yard

Rescues..don't even get me started! The chihuahua rescue out here charges 250 for a pup under like 6 or 9 months...come on that is a bit much, just because of its age its 250?! I could understand 150! my personal opinion. And the screening process is dumb.

We are judged because of how many pets we have, even tho we care for them extremely well. Maybe one day the system will be better

I have seen people being told that thats not rescue (wtf?? huh) There are also people who feel that getting a shelter dog is a "purchase" also because money changes hands... that a dog has to to free to be a rescue (wtf again) basically people just try to downplay the good that people are doing by nitpicking.

By six foot fence I ment around the whole house...including the front. We are a corner lot and any fence on the street can't be more than 4'..since its a corner my backyard fence it against the street, so i have to have 4' backyard fencing too.

If It were up to me we'd have barbwire and a moat but thats another story...lol

My BIL spent $450 on a "rescued" english bulldog...the dog had already been returned once and they had collected the same fee then too (not refunded)

I told him why that was bunk but he go the dog anyway...oh well.



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I have seen people being told that thats not rescue (wtf?? huh) There are also people who feel that getting a shelter dog is a "purchase" also because money changes hands... that a dog has to to free to be a rescue (wtf again) basically people just try to downplay the good that people are doing by nitpicking.

By six foot fence I ment around the whole house...including the front. We are a corner lot and any fence on the street can't be more than 4'..since its a corner my backyard fence it against the street, so i have to have 4' backyard fencing too.

If It were up to me we'd have barbwire and a moat but thats another story...lol

My BIL spent $450 on a "rescued" english bulldog...the dog had already been returned once and they had collected the same fee then too (not refunded)

I told him why that was bunk but he go the dog anyway...oh well.
WTF?! LOL I would be afraid and suspicious of a house who had a high fence all the way around it haha. I am with ya on the moat LOL

To me rescuing is not purchasing from a breeder thats it LOL
 

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I'm a champion for responsible people who breed dogs responsibly. And dog shows do not promote being responsible breeders.

I understand the perspective from both camps, the ones who believe in adoption and those who believe in breeders. There are plenty of negatives from both sides. Having experienced it from each side, I prefer to march to the beat of my own drum. If you study the breeds and the history of them then you'll come to realize that all dogs which are labeled as pedigree and acknowledged as such by an accepted registry all began as mongrels. They were all at one point in time just a dog like any other mutt, with the exception of a few pariah breeds, all dog breeds were the product of mixing and matching different dogs for temperament and health first. There were no closed registries in the beginning and dogs sort of got classed according to what they were doing at the time. For example, retrievers were basically any dog that could do so. The same for pointers, water dogs, hounds etc etc. There wasn't a set look in the beginning, there weren't problems with genetic defects or high cancer rates etc, etc. That all happened after the closed registry systems took effect.

Line-breeding and in-breeding become common practices once you add a closed registry into the mix. Add an elitist dog fancy and dog shows then suddenly the completion of a recipe for disaster is in effect. Its a slow road to creating a breed of closely related dogs that have an increasing amount of defects. Throw in fad breeding and all of a sudden those minor health defects become extreme defects that according to each breed specific club is the acceptable conformation standard.

Then you have the adoption route. People who feel that for whatever reason they are getting a much better option by choosing to adopt. By taking a guess into the lineage of the dog and casting logic to the wind by assuming that what they are getting will be a healthy ambassador to the dog world for many years. No knowledge of where the dog came from or what breed it is or even what the condition and temperament of the parents was. These people assume the dog doesn't have any health issues, genetic problems or physiological issues and the new adoptive owners just accept that everything the shelter is guessing at should be the final word. The story behind the dog, where it was rescued from or the conditions from where it came, all a toss up.

All I can say for sure is that there was an advantage with a mixed breeds in the beginning. An intentionally crossed mutt is a window into the past and how our ancestors did a positive thing for the canine world without really knowing it. They introduced diversity into their gene pool and allowed for them to be more resistant to diseases and to pass on good genes to their offspring. Pure breeds today are at a disadvantage because the thinking is now directed towards cosmetic concerns first and addressing the latest fad in each breed standard. In doing so breeding practices take a course that promotes breeding closely related dogs and thus thinning the diversity to perilous levels. As it stands today most pure breed dogs have a genetic diversity that is equivalent to an endangered species with less than 10% diversity in the living population. And to say that the average golden-doodle or labra-doodle is at an advantage is a gross misunderstanding, since unscrupulous breeders have taken advantage of them for profit to levels that already decimated diversity in the pure breeds they mixed to obtain these hybrids in the first place. The super-sire syndrome has taken hold and hundreds of pups fathered from a small pool of fathers has had the effect of poor specimens even in these designer dogs. Many websites brag about the sires they use over and over again, which makes them at this point no better than the insane dog fancy and their pure breed dogs.

The rhythm I'm in tune with tells me that the closed registry system and greed have had the same results on both sides of the fence. And that in order to give back something positive that our choices are to either use DNA mapping to our advantage or to begin to outcross responsibly like our ancestors did. Since DNA mapping is still years away for many of the pure breeds then the best logical approach left is to outcross different breeds to create new lines once again.

I've taken a lot of heat from both sides for my stance. But fortunately I'm not alone in my thinking. And many geneticists agree with it. The only people screaming the loudest against it are the Brain washed dog fancy and the insane rescue organizations. Both of which haves skewed agendas and a need to relearn the real reasons why they have those dogs they love so much.
 

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what a great post!

Personally, I don't go and get a rescue dog with the assumption that it will be healthy and sound, I also don't know of anyone else who does. :)

The closed gene pool will be the death of PB dogs.



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Yea I have never heard anyone assume a rescued dog is going to be totally healthy and behaved...I actually expect to have to put a lot into a rescued dog, but would assume the same thing with a PB anyways since genetics are not the only determination of a dogs behavior....
 

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I usually gather that the expectation from the adopter is that if its a mix breed its generally healthier than a purebreed. Which is really not the case. There are many factors involved. And temperament is molded through socialization. Some breeders have no idea how important that is. I see it like raising children, because just like children our dogs are a product of the environment they are raised within. Problem environment.... equals Problem Dog. Genetics only plays a portion in the end result by providing you the template. The rest is up to you. If the breeder has no idea on socialization practices, then you'll have a lot of work to do when you do get that puppy.

We show our dogs, but we're not the typical dog fancy elitists. We actually go there to see the other dogs and have fun, its a family event for us. Our 5 children come along and our relatives all show up. Mostly we try our best to show people what our dogs are really all about. And the primping and preening process is not something we participate in, since at least for our breed they are supposed to present as if they just came in off the field. So we get a big laugh out of all the owners with the blow dryers and styling tools on the sidelines. The real joy is in getting our dogs up off the floor dusting them off and still winning the match. Our kids just love the different colored ribbons. Our dogs just like the company of others and really don't give a crap about a ribbon.
 
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