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Not me, Im in Australia
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Here's a reason to consider not supporting dog shows.
Documentary - BBC - Pedigree Dogs Exposed Video by Eric - MySpace Video
Documentary - BBC - Pedigree Dogs Exposed Video by Eric - MySpace Video
I watched the introduction to the documentary. Not the whole thing, I could tell where it was leading and it is very sad. I will tell you now, at least in the USA, any responsible breeder does genetic testing on these health problems before breeding the dog. Which is another reason not to buy from a pet store or Back-yard breeder.
PETA runs all over dog shows, but I can tell you know confidently that probably up to 95% of show people, if not more, are responsible in this area.
It does seem that in the UK it is a lot worse than it is here. Let's just hope they get the breeding practices up to par.
I'm really confused why you posted what you did??? I can tell by your web site you are involved in showing your dogs.
PETA runs all over dog shows, but I can tell you know confidently that probably up to 95% of show people, if not more, are responsible in this area.
It does seem that in the UK it is a lot worse than it is here. Let's just hope they get the breeding practices up to par.
I'm really confused why you posted what you did??? I can tell by your web site you are involved in showing your dogs.
Sorry for the double post, but I did some research on the film and yes PETA is all over them. The producers aren't to happy about it either. I came across a quate from one of them. They aren't condoning showing they just think they should be improved.
“In stark contrast, and the reason we made the film, is that we believe pedigree dogs are of tremendous value to society and that something needs to be done to arrest the damage caused by decades of inbreeding and selection for ‘beauty’. The film is a passionate call for urgent reform to save them before it is too late. To do that, there needs to be urgent reform of breeding practices and dog shows."
I can't say I disagree.
“In stark contrast, and the reason we made the film, is that we believe pedigree dogs are of tremendous value to society and that something needs to be done to arrest the damage caused by decades of inbreeding and selection for ‘beauty’. The film is a passionate call for urgent reform to save them before it is too late. To do that, there needs to be urgent reform of breeding practices and dog shows."
I can't say I disagree.
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Christ, not another PETA supporter :eyeroll:
PETA are doing everything in their power to stop us ethical pedigree breeders. Are you going to go by a documentry that only shows bad dogs, what about all the crossbreds out their that have leg perthies, hip dysplasia, PRA (blindness) epileptic fits, slipping patellas, heart murmurs, and thats just to name a few bad stuffups. If PETA has their own way, not only will they make pedigree dogs die, but you can count after they have done that, crossbreds wont be around neither. Dont be fooled by these pricks, they arent stopping with just dogs, they are doing in all animal industries.
Reg'd breeders like myself do all the genetic health checks to irradicate problems, ppl think we are making a buck out of our dogs which is so not true as most of our money goes into the testing of our dogs. Some of the footage that was seen at the show was a setup also, which most ppl have no idea of. They showed german shephards almost collapsing, we see none of that here in Australia and to think we would even try to show a dog that badly conformed.
Yes this subject angers me, PETA needs a bomb placed under their A$$es.
PETA are doing everything in their power to stop us ethical pedigree breeders. Are you going to go by a documentry that only shows bad dogs, what about all the crossbreds out their that have leg perthies, hip dysplasia, PRA (blindness) epileptic fits, slipping patellas, heart murmurs, and thats just to name a few bad stuffups. If PETA has their own way, not only will they make pedigree dogs die, but you can count after they have done that, crossbreds wont be around neither. Dont be fooled by these pricks, they arent stopping with just dogs, they are doing in all animal industries.
Reg'd breeders like myself do all the genetic health checks to irradicate problems, ppl think we are making a buck out of our dogs which is so not true as most of our money goes into the testing of our dogs. Some of the footage that was seen at the show was a setup also, which most ppl have no idea of. They showed german shephards almost collapsing, we see none of that here in Australia and to think we would even try to show a dog that badly conformed.
Yes this subject angers me, PETA needs a bomb placed under their A$$es.
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Well, contrary to what you may want to believe PETA wasn't the sponsor behind this. Unfortunately many of the tests that show-breeders rely upon today do not rule out many of these disorders, as well most of the genetic DNA markers that flag for these defects have yet to be determined. And quite frankly, when you look into it even here in the U.S. there are many show breeders who will breed for cosmetics before health. PERIOD. Which is why when we go to shows it is to inform the public about proper breeding practices and to educate them. In doing so we have made many enemies in the show ring.
Pointing out Line-Breeding practices that are no better than inbreeding. The same practices that ruin many otherwise wonderful dogs. The GSD show dog as one example is really a disgusting result of generations of close minded breeders following a conformation standard put in place by people who really didn't know what they were doing themselves. You can't really witness a GSD in a show and tell me that is normal and healthy. There are few dogs that display in conformation the same way they were meant to in the field or as working dogs. The rest are cosmetic freaks. And generations of line-breeding and guessing has devastated the gene pool.
So in breeding for a healthier dog, you need to go beyond 4 generations of clean lines with enough diversity to truly do any respect to the purebred dog. And to change the standards that promote breeding freaks. Or to outcross with other breeds with clean health histories and improve the genetic diversity for both.
Pointing out Line-Breeding practices that are no better than inbreeding. The same practices that ruin many otherwise wonderful dogs. The GSD show dog as one example is really a disgusting result of generations of close minded breeders following a conformation standard put in place by people who really didn't know what they were doing themselves. You can't really witness a GSD in a show and tell me that is normal and healthy. There are few dogs that display in conformation the same way they were meant to in the field or as working dogs. The rest are cosmetic freaks. And generations of line-breeding and guessing has devastated the gene pool.
So in breeding for a healthier dog, you need to go beyond 4 generations of clean lines with enough diversity to truly do any respect to the purebred dog. And to change the standards that promote breeding freaks. Or to outcross with other breeds with clean health histories and improve the genetic diversity for both.
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Breeders dont just rely on tests as such, they also rely on conformation, (type, temperament and soundness.) Agreed some of the GSD ppl have really changed the look of their breed, for what reason I have no idea and do agree they look shocking. Having said that, I have never seen one in Australia which have hip and leg problems like they showed on some of these videos.
The pug and other brachea breeds could do with a bit of a nose also, better for breathing. But they do cope well how they are. I use to own them, and mostly in hot temperatures do they suffer a little more than another breed.
PETA may not be a sponsor, but they have alot to do with changing ppls way of thinking. In the end they are hoping to kill off every creature on earth. Everything is affected in one way or another according to them.
The pug and other brachea breeds could do with a bit of a nose also, better for breathing. But they do cope well how they are. I use to own them, and mostly in hot temperatures do they suffer a little more than another breed.
PETA may not be a sponsor, but they have alot to do with changing ppls way of thinking. In the end they are hoping to kill off every creature on earth. Everything is affected in one way or another according to them.
Like I said before, the research I did on the film, the producers aren't happy about PETA loving all over them. But, they are. And it was that film and PETA that kept Crufts from airing on TV last year.
I don't know about all genetic testing, but in my breed you OFA the hips and clear the eyes and you are good to go. For testing that is. It is your responsibility to make sure that everything is conformationaly sound in body and in mind. Now if one of my dog's has a a seizure, or something I ain't going to breed it! That is just common sence.
The film confused me in a lot of points like saying some breeders just breed for body, not mind. If I take a sheltie out in the ring and it is to backward to strut it stuff it will not win. If my dog has back legs that wobble all over the place it won't win either, but maybe that is a German Shep. thing. I'm sceduled to take my dogs back out Feb 13 & 14. If time allows I'm going to watch the GSD's this time and see if we are facing the same problems the UK is. Personally that blows my mind.
I don't know about all genetic testing, but in my breed you OFA the hips and clear the eyes and you are good to go. For testing that is. It is your responsibility to make sure that everything is conformationaly sound in body and in mind. Now if one of my dog's has a a seizure, or something I ain't going to breed it! That is just common sence.
The film confused me in a lot of points like saying some breeders just breed for body, not mind. If I take a sheltie out in the ring and it is to backward to strut it stuff it will not win. If my dog has back legs that wobble all over the place it won't win either, but maybe that is a German Shep. thing. I'm sceduled to take my dogs back out Feb 13 & 14. If time allows I'm going to watch the GSD's this time and see if we are facing the same problems the UK is. Personally that blows my mind.
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Agree with you AshleyC. I have only ever had one problem which come from a USA imported dog that I used, and my pup had entropian. Never before have I had a problem with eyes before but this dog has a bad case of it. He is desexed now and I wont continue with that line. I have informed the owners of his brothers to keep an eye out just incase their pups get it, they are 1yr old now and dont have it.
I would never use a line that has had epilepsy, hip dip, slipping patellas, or anything else nasty. It makes no sense that they say we are breeding for body, cause who in their right mind would want to show a wobbly bodied dog like that. :eyeroll: It certainly doesnt give them a hey look at me look, it just discusts you to see a dog in sufferance like that.
I would never use a line that has had epilepsy, hip dip, slipping patellas, or anything else nasty. It makes no sense that they say we are breeding for body, cause who in their right mind would want to show a wobbly bodied dog like that. :eyeroll: It certainly doesnt give them a hey look at me look, it just discusts you to see a dog in sufferance like that.
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Well look at it this way. Penn Hip tests will fail many dogs that pass OFA. OFA testing has been done for generations and there has been very little improvement. So clearly OFA which are not genetic test, but physical inspections and x-rays, don't work. Yet some breeders as my vet has told me will fail on Penn Hip tests and clearly should not breed their animal yet they then just pass on an OFA and go ahead and breed anyway.
These tests clearly don't guarantee anything, except that your dog can pass them. If there were clear DNA markers to check for then you can say for certain this dog or that one is truly clear or a carrier of the defect. For now the best thing going is a Penn Hip test for dysplasia. But obviously without this being a strict guideline the majority of breeders will continue with OFA tests that haven't improved much over the years in terms of lowering the occurrences of these defects in more litters.
The Film seemed pretty clear to me. It's also clear that old habits don't die easy. There is no way to stop an old school breeder from continuing their practices unless they pass away and their children don't pick up the torch. Until that happens all across the board its up to new age breeders to continue fixing things one litter at a time. If there is a show driven breeder who knows they have a defect in there stud or bitch, the only thing stopping them from breeding is a good personal ethic. Without it, they can damn well breed their dog to whomever they feel will net them a big score for more champions.
By the way, I was at the Allentown Show last weekend. We went over to the GSD ring just to confirm what we already knew..... yup, all gaits were ataxic and all dogs were stooped over grotesquely. Who the hell breeds for a dog that walks landing almost on their rear knees? That's not normal. As well as several other breeds having some wild abnormalities.
This movie might be loved by PETA, but they didn't fund it. If PETA had it their way all purebreds would be ended yesterday. This documentary was directed to me by some pretty accomplished breeders and historians of the dog fancier world who are very concerned that changes need to happen. Not by PETA. You guys should just sit down and watch it for a bit. listen to it and compare it to what you know already. Poodles are not deformed by their standards and are still very game dogs in the field and show in conformation pretty much as they do in the field. As it stands there are not many dogs that do that anymore. Goldens are now these big beefy course lumbering teddy bear dogs. Nothing like the field goldens. They are increasingly more aggressive and have terrible genetic defects. It's even worse for Labradors. And these are just a couple of examples. the list goes on and on.
And SIvaro..... These defects don't show most times in the specimens, that's why a dog with bad hips can still be presented and do well. One breeder at the show I was at was showing her Spinoni. She even told me it had cracked its hips in three locations. Yet, there she was showing it. As such since most dogs are stoic animals and don't show their pain, it's easy for them to pass as sound when presented for conformation. And for someone looking to grab the best stud or bitch for their own dogs.... well the rest isn't difficult to figure out. That's where the breeding purely for cosmetic concerns before health concerns comes into play.
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CHK, dont pass the buck onto all breeders. FFS, most of us are doing the right thing by our breeds and would never ever keep going on with a line that had problems. I dont know whats happening in your country but here MOST of us are doing the right thing except what we call farmers or backyarders.
Am I taking what you say personally, hell yes. I do many outside dogs here for grooming, mostly crossbred mongrels. Cant say there is too many that dont come in with major problems. I always know when they have hip, patella problems. It not hard to not notice. You feel it clicking everytime you lift a leg. I always know when a back is out, know when a dog has cancer. I pick many things out that isnt seen to most ppls eyes.
You think I would breed from anything remotely close to what you are talking about? You dont know me well at all, to know me you would know my strict guidelines of what I would and wouldnt breed and what I would and wouldnt touch. I cant stand ppl that hate reg'd breeders, pass all the blame onto the breeders who have forked out more money than they bring in and have so many years experience on the lines they have created. Dont you dare come on here and say we are ruining things when we are doing the best we possibly can for the betterment of the breed.
Wow, perhaps you better check out what happens to most mutts out there. If that example is what you are looking for, its high time you got yourself a better set of glasses.
Am I taking what you say personally, hell yes. I do many outside dogs here for grooming, mostly crossbred mongrels. Cant say there is too many that dont come in with major problems. I always know when they have hip, patella problems. It not hard to not notice. You feel it clicking everytime you lift a leg. I always know when a back is out, know when a dog has cancer. I pick many things out that isnt seen to most ppls eyes.
You think I would breed from anything remotely close to what you are talking about? You dont know me well at all, to know me you would know my strict guidelines of what I would and wouldnt breed and what I would and wouldnt touch. I cant stand ppl that hate reg'd breeders, pass all the blame onto the breeders who have forked out more money than they bring in and have so many years experience on the lines they have created. Dont you dare come on here and say we are ruining things when we are doing the best we possibly can for the betterment of the breed.
Wow, perhaps you better check out what happens to most mutts out there. If that example is what you are looking for, its high time you got yourself a better set of glasses.
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I didn't say anywhere all breeders or you were guilty. In fact I did say most breeders, because it is true. I did say it was other breeders (obviously concerned and responsible) that gave me that link. And I did say there are some breeds which are exceptions to the cosmetic factor because they show the same way they work in the field. I can't see anywhere you should take it personally.
In fact if the dogs you are grooming aren't yours, its difficult to claim that these owners will not breed them at any point in time.
Outcrosses were the staple of how we came to every breed we see today. Your poodle didn't just happen. It took generations and even centuries of crossbreeding for purpose and temperament before you got the results you see today. All purebred dogs are essentially born from mutts and at one time were all called mongrels. As a breeder you should know this, and understand that many times throughout history dogs were outcrossed to improve them. This is difficult to do today since most registries are closed. But occasionally when there is a breed that comes to the brink of extinction because of the old school ways.... it would benefit the breed to outcross. Otherwise what was left will just go extinct since so many defects wouldn't warrant breeding. So either you do the right thing, or continue breeding from the defective pool remaining.
Or if greed is the driving factor or if the "champion" bug is the motivating factor, who's to say that these breedings don't happen. If anything good came of this documentary... it certainly opens your eyes to at least question the status quo. And to at least reflect upon whether there is anything that can be done to reverse it. And to look towards your own Kennel clubs to put the best interests of the breeds before cosmetic concerns.
A healthier dog in the case of many breeds actually means changing those conformation standards. If you know any ridgeback breeders in your area... ask them what they do to the ridgeless puppies. They are an example of a dog bred for a serious defect in order to meet those conformation standards.
If the problem was isolated to just mutts you wouldn't see so many purebred dogs in the shelters..... poodles are pretty popular there. So are all the toy breeds. And then the popular larger breeds are in there as well. Saw a GSD rescue at the vet last month, along with a Golden and countless labs and Cockers. I'd say they just get recycled quicker than most mixes. But obviously if we open our eyes to this..... shelters are not dominated with mix bred dogs. Its just the rarer breeds that avoid that mess because the breeding populations are very controlled.
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And Sivaro...
I think maybe you didn't read through my entire post before, or you would clearly understand the shortcomings of OFA tests. If a dog passes it also doesn't mean that those physical defects won't present afterwards. Those test have become more a formality than a control. Seeing as how you're from a family of geneticists.... I would think you more than anyone else would be aware of such things. My sister is a Genetic Scientist working for DNA research here in the U.S. We are close and therefore what she knows.... I know. And clearly I'm not fooled by most of what the status quo accepts today. If these accepted measures worked. Then these defects would be less prevalent in all breeds. And Cancer would be on a decline, not a rise.
I think maybe you didn't read through my entire post before, or you would clearly understand the shortcomings of OFA tests. If a dog passes it also doesn't mean that those physical defects won't present afterwards. Those test have become more a formality than a control. Seeing as how you're from a family of geneticists.... I would think you more than anyone else would be aware of such things. My sister is a Genetic Scientist working for DNA research here in the U.S. We are close and therefore what she knows.... I know. And clearly I'm not fooled by most of what the status quo accepts today. If these accepted measures worked. Then these defects would be less prevalent in all breeds. And Cancer would be on a decline, not a rise.
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Oh I read everything loud and clear. When you mention breeders as such, "breeders" like myself can be lumped into the same basket and take great offence at your post.
The crossbreds that come in for grooming arent breeding dogs, they are desexed (thankfully), I think in 10 yrs I have only had a few maltese shih tzu crosses come here that the ppl were breeding from. The underbites they produced were horrific, the patellas were graded 4 (extremely bad) The temperaments were shy to fear aggressive. I warned these ppl not to do it but they did. The poor bitch also gave birth in the backyard, thus having pups all over the place. First litter was 6, 4 survived. Second litter 6 and 5 survived. 3rd litter only one survived. Bastards done back to back to back matings.
As for my breed and many others, yes they were the result of crossbreedings. And yes it took many generations to get to the perfection that they were looking for. But we all know, no breed or x breed are perfect, I would love to see a dog on earth that is perfect. Not possible. There are dogs with faults, bad traits, genetic issues and regardless how anyone thinks they can possibly breed these imperfections out are kidding themselves. I have always said if it was there in the past it just waiting to rear its ugly head again. Does this mean the breeder is at fault cause it will arise, no!!! Unless ppl are going to start being honest and there is documents on each and every dog in the world you wont know what you are breeding and who you are breeding it to. Just because things can be 30 generations away, does not mean it wont come back.
Science is also not perfect. My friend bought a dog from the states, he was tested to only ever be able to breed black and white. He mostly did, then one brown come. My friend rang her friend in the states and hello, 32 gererations ago her first foundation bitch was a brown. So even tests really arent a guarantee of what you will or wont get, and if bad genetics will crop up again. All we can do is our best but unfortunately the crystal ball will not work.
Personally I would love the see a human that is a better example than the dogs that we breed. I find more faults in humans than dogs
On that note, I must go to bed, its 12.30am here and I havnt had much shut eye in a week.
The crossbreds that come in for grooming arent breeding dogs, they are desexed (thankfully), I think in 10 yrs I have only had a few maltese shih tzu crosses come here that the ppl were breeding from. The underbites they produced were horrific, the patellas were graded 4 (extremely bad) The temperaments were shy to fear aggressive. I warned these ppl not to do it but they did. The poor bitch also gave birth in the backyard, thus having pups all over the place. First litter was 6, 4 survived. Second litter 6 and 5 survived. 3rd litter only one survived. Bastards done back to back to back matings.
As for my breed and many others, yes they were the result of crossbreedings. And yes it took many generations to get to the perfection that they were looking for. But we all know, no breed or x breed are perfect, I would love to see a dog on earth that is perfect. Not possible. There are dogs with faults, bad traits, genetic issues and regardless how anyone thinks they can possibly breed these imperfections out are kidding themselves. I have always said if it was there in the past it just waiting to rear its ugly head again. Does this mean the breeder is at fault cause it will arise, no!!! Unless ppl are going to start being honest and there is documents on each and every dog in the world you wont know what you are breeding and who you are breeding it to. Just because things can be 30 generations away, does not mean it wont come back.
Science is also not perfect. My friend bought a dog from the states, he was tested to only ever be able to breed black and white. He mostly did, then one brown come. My friend rang her friend in the states and hello, 32 gererations ago her first foundation bitch was a brown. So even tests really arent a guarantee of what you will or wont get, and if bad genetics will crop up again. All we can do is our best but unfortunately the crystal ball will not work.
Personally I would love the see a human that is a better example than the dogs that we breed. I find more faults in humans than dogs
On that note, I must go to bed, its 12.30am here and I havnt had much shut eye in a week.
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Good point Sivaro. There are always exceptions to the status quo. And then you aren't lumped in with "MOST BREEDERS".
Genetics is a funny thing. When selective breeding is involved... you actually can breed away those problems. It just takes breeders willing to do so. And time, and DNA markers so we know better than what a physical test provides us. If Genetic tests were available as opposed to the standard OFA procedures your friend would have had better results I'm sure.
Humans are a poor example since selective breeding is not our lot in life ;-) Which is why dogs have an advantage over us. There is a cure for cancer in dogs. As well as other genetic defects. Breeders just have to realize that a change in the process is required.
Rest well, tomorrow is a better day.
Genetics is a funny thing. When selective breeding is involved... you actually can breed away those problems. It just takes breeders willing to do so. And time, and DNA markers so we know better than what a physical test provides us. If Genetic tests were available as opposed to the standard OFA procedures your friend would have had better results I'm sure.
Humans are a poor example since selective breeding is not our lot in life ;-) Which is why dogs have an advantage over us. There is a cure for cancer in dogs. As well as other genetic defects. Breeders just have to realize that a change in the process is required.
Rest well, tomorrow is a better day.
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Also...
Most breeders are doing what the status quo says is responsible. And yes OFA testing shows a measure of being responsible. But, clearly since these dated tests are not a guarantee, something better is needed, and if something better is available such as the Pen Hip tests, then why not use that as the new measure. Like I said, breeders who fail on the Pen Hip test, just get an OFA clearance than breed anyway, so how is that being responsible. Lineage checks going back as far as possible beyond the standard 3 or 4 generations is more responsible than an OFA test today and should be required as well.
Most breeders are doing what the status quo says is responsible. And yes OFA testing shows a measure of being responsible. But, clearly since these dated tests are not a guarantee, something better is needed, and if something better is available such as the Pen Hip tests, then why not use that as the new measure. Like I said, breeders who fail on the Pen Hip test, just get an OFA clearance than breed anyway, so how is that being responsible. Lineage checks going back as far as possible beyond the standard 3 or 4 generations is more responsible than an OFA test today and should be required as well.
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