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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I don't see a category for this so I will put it in general dog discussion.
Please note: While I stand behind most of what I will say, it is intended to spark serious discussion. So rather than simply say you agree or disagree, or toss names like cynic, cold, etc - take the time to really think it over and provide reasons for your stance.

People domesticated dogs for work and companion reasons - mostly work.
The wolves never asked or needed it - we just did it. And today we have an insane number (ie. severe overpopulation) and kinds of breeds to choose from.

We claim to love dogs, but most originate from puppy mills - very few are prepared to pay the high cost of reputable pure bred breeders (and even then debatable if fair) - and whether you got/get your dog from a rescue, spca, previous owner, street, friend - most of those came from some form of puppy mill (big or small) where conditions are horrifc and inhumane. So on the one hand you can tell yourself you are rescuing/saving/helping a dog, but once you know the real story.....more of a dilemna for those with a conscience.

Then many people are in love with the IDEA of a dog, rather than the actual nitty gritty of owning and caring for a dog. But dogs aren't goldfish. Do you think a quick outside to relieve themselvelves, then gone all day at work, and then home to relieve again and hang out is enough? Is it proper care? Absolutely not! But some form of this picture is the norm. And then we are surprised when they develop serious behavioural problems. They can't walk on a leash without pulling everywhere and darting at all moving and smelly things. They bark too much. They are aggressive and over-excited with other dogs at the dog run. They turn in circles obsessively. The kinds of behaviours are too many to name here. And if this wasn't cruel enough, they throw up their hands in wonder and declare this dog is impossible and off they go back to spca, rescue, pound, etc; But even if they stick around, is this fair to the dog? Is this humane? Is this right?

What category do you fall into? I see a few that can be a fit for dogs - but even here, it is far too easy to be a bad dog owner. Retired couples or singles who are around during the day and have the time and interest to spend with dog. People who work at home. A stay at home partner - as long as they are on board with the dog idea. That's about it. Short-term situations don't cut it - like university student, unemployed, etc because they may be suitable for a time, but then you could well end up in the category above which isn't fair to the dog.

And even among those who are in a position to properly care for dogs, many are not prepared/willing/interersted/able to take the time train, exercise, groom, feed good food, socialize, dog run, etc;

Now you can say, "well I get home at the end of the end and she is so happy to see me - we hang out and get along and all is well" Thing is, she HAS to be happy to see you - you are the one that feeds and provides water - you take her out to go - she has been alone, bored, and probably anxious all day so of course your return is big news - a lot of it is instinctive also. That doesn't make it ok for you not to care for the dog in a humane way. The fact is, many if not majority of owners and future owners want a dog and feel they have a right to a dog. That it will be happy - or at least happier than at a pound, rescue, or wherever. But they SHOULD NOT GET ONE. It is a selfish and inhumane act - if they fall into the category described here. It ends up supporting the puppy mills generally indirectly (is it better if the dog is once or twice removed from a puppy milll or smaller puppy mill operation?)

Some basic pop psychology. Many people, in all categories listed above, get a dog to replace or fill a gap in their lives. Particularly when one is alone, it's often to be a replacement for a partner, a friend that's always at home for you when you need it, a reason to get outside and exercise (although often doesn't turn out that way) a comfort when you go to bed at night, even someone(thing) to talk to, cry with, etc; They are spoiled, allowed to do what they want, over-fed, treated like people - but often denied essential DOG needs and attention.

Ultimately, the entire business of domesticating, breeding, and owning dogs, is a selfish, self-serving, and inumane act.

Discuss...........
 

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Well not sure really what to discuss. I see alot of dogs here that are chained or kept in pens and ignored most of there lives. It pretty sad. I have 5 dogs, 1 retired working dog and 1 current. I stay busy with them, but also work 72 hours a week. 24 and 48 hour shifts. I have had to do alot of arranging to make sure they are cared for well when I am away. It ia a lot of hard work to keep them all happy and healthy, body and mind.
 

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I cant reply in detail now. But i must say that i disagree with the idea that MOST dogs come from puppy mills. Most dogs i would assume come from bybs and opps breedings. If you were to say most SMALL PURE BRED dogs come from mills. That i might believe

Perhaps i am not understanding you. You sound like everyone who works has a bored anxious dog and thus shouldnt own one?

My dogs would be dead without me. Plain fact. They have a great life here and nothing i do NOT supports puppy mills. My dogs are not direct products of pms
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Discussion Starter #4
Well discussion can go in all manner of directions.
But to your point, you're saying "well, there are dogs out there worse off than my situation, so they are better off than that at least."
And they may well be in your case.
But for many, comparing a bad scenario to a worse scenario doesn't make the first better - in principle or reality.
 

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My 3 mals were not puppy mill dogs, lol. They were from selective kennels who produce major working dogs. Chester was found on the road starving. Sandy was from a backyard breeder, although she is registered shih-tzu I swear the dad was Lhasa.
I believe a dog needs time to be a dog. Mine all get 'pack walks', where we go out for a couple of hours on a couple hundred acres and they run. Yes off leash. Lol, yes even the shih tzu! They do have obedience, do mind their manners, just are great dogs. Greta pulls more on the leash, and she does still want to charge after everything that moves. But she is a 6 month old malinois that was designed to have that drive, and MUST be that way to be a good working dog.
 

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Word-- my dogs have it made. I was stating the fact agreeing with you that alot of dogs are bad off -in my neck of the woods. Not comparing them to my situation. My dogs are treated like dogs. They are also spoiled.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
juliemule:

Please disregard the previous thread - I couldn't edit it.

Well, to your first question, discussion can go in all manner of directions.
To your second, I'm not judging one way or another.
Only that far too many use the "there are dogs in worse situations" to feel better and justify their own situation - which often is not adequate or appropriate for a dog's needs.
Was that dog born into this world to sit around your place all day for a few hours of hang time?
Also in your case, there are several dogs, but often it's one lonely dog.
And also, and I'm not saying in your case, but people often get 2 or more dogs because they feel better about dogs having eachother while they are not with the owner most of the time.
And while it tends to be the case, it doesn't change the fact that the owner, ie. the one who chose to adopt/buy said dogs (s), isn't even with it/them most of the time.
Some might say this is largely a selfish act - for the sake of having a friend/companion around when you get home.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Criosphynx:
Well, it's clearly a tough issue - and the reason we are facing a massive dog overpopulation and daily slaughter as a result. Where can we begin to make a dent in this epedemic? I don't have answers per say - I'm trying to generate discussion on a difficult and emotional issue - I realise it doesn't make me popular, and isn't a fluffy fun light topic. But also, what point in shooting the messenger?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
juliemule:
Yes, they have it very good from the sound of it. The discussion is aimed at the majority who do not.
 

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Criosphynx:
Well, it's clearly a tough issue - and the reason we are facing a massive dog overpopulation and daily slaughter as a result. Where can we begin to make a dent in this epedemic? I don't have answers per say - I'm trying to generate discussion on a difficult and emotional issue - I realise it doesn't make me popular, and isn't a fluffy fun light topic. But also, what point in shooting the messenger?
well i hate to say it. But when u come on a forum with above average owners and then insinuate that if they work they are bad dog owners. I dont know what you expected

Education is the answer. And for those that cant be responsible and or educated spay neuter is the answer. Training is a BIG answer and part of why i sit here and give training advice that i should be out charging for. Most dogs are given to shelters for behavior issues. We dont have an overpop problem as much as we have an owner retention problem. People are not keeping one dog. But rather cycling through many
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Discussion Starter #12
Crioshpynx:
The discussion isn't aimed at above average owners. Sadly, they don't represnt the vast majority. As far as working, we have to work, but we don't have to own a dog. I'm not saying all who work are bad owners, but if someone is away for several hours a day up to 12ish, one is allowed to question if this arrangement has the dog's needs in mind. That dog might be OK, will not die of boredom or anxiety, will greet the owner happily when they come home, but how much of this arrangement is to suit the owner's need to have a dog regardless of the reality of their life? And how much with the dog's needs in mind?
 

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There are tens if not hundreds of threads from members here ranting about bad owners. You are preaching to the choir. Lol:) ;)

Like i said before the solution is to educate people. I wager many people are simply ignorant as to how bad their care is. Or its cultural. Which is the main roadblock i find in my area personally

I still am curious why you think most dogs come from puppy mills. Do you have a source i can view?
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Discussion Starter #14
Criosphynx:
No stats, but common sense tells me most cannot afford or simply will not pay a reputable breeder $700-1500 for a puppy when they have other options available to them. These reputable breeders operate necessarily on a very small scale - and the dogs are healthy good looking pure breds that follow breed standards. Is this the kind of dog you see most out on the street, at dog runs, at pounds and rescues? Not to mention the thousands of dogs from the mills that are simply abandoned, put down and buried quietly, the smaller mills and backyard breeders, the dogs who people get from someone who got it from someone etc (ie. often mill original source) Not to mention huge sections of the world who either don't have the standards we have in the US/Canada (which themselves are weak) - or any at all.
 

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Im not sure what has it implanted in your mind that a dog alone at home because the owner is at work is an unhappy dog. most dogs actually sleep during this time. As long as the dog gets the attention when the owner is home I find it hard to believe the dog is unhappy.

However, I can see nothing we say is going to change your opinion so there's really no sense in discussing it. I just know from my experience every dog we have owned has been extremely happy and none have ever developed behavioral problems simply by being left at home for the day. Why? Because when I am home I spend time and work with the dog.
 

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Whoa, this thread makes.. not.. much sense to me. :confused: So, we forced dogs into these horrible lives, most of them come from puppy mills, we are bad if we work or leave them home alone at any point.. what? Who is allowed to have a dog?

Criosphynx:
No stats, but common sense tells me most cannot afford or simply will not pay a reputable breeder $700-1500 for a puppy when they have other options available to them. These reputable breeders operate necessarily on a very small scale - and the dogs are healthy good looking pure breds that follow breed standards. Is this the kind of dog you see most out on the street, at dog runs, at pounds and rescues? Not to mention the thousands of dogs from the mills that are simply abandoned, put down and buried quietly, the smaller mills and backyard breeders, the dogs who people get from someone who got it from someone etc (ie. often mill original source) Not to mention huge sections of the world who either don't have the standards we have in the US/Canada (which themselves are weak) - or any at all.
That still doesn't prove that a vast majority of dogs come from puppy mills. In fact, you would have zero way to prove this. First, what is most? What percentage of the dog population? If you can establish that, what is a reputable breeder and how can you determine how many of them there are plus how many dogs they personally produce? So, when you figure that out, that that away from "most" because those dogs clearly aren't from puppy mills. You also can't use rescue/shelter dogs because there really is no way to trace where they came from. My four are rescues- as far as I know, one was taken in by AC as a stray at 5 weeks, two were owner surrenders to a kill shelter, and one was a forced surrender. I have some information on them, but not how they were they came from except one came with AKC papers that were traceable to a shoddy breeder.

Also, I don't know what you mean by a dog over population. Shelter statistics have been on the drop since the 1970s. There is also no convincing me that I am just placating myself by saying my dogs are in a better place than they were. It is not disputable that they ARE in a better place than they were. I don't know where you would have my dogs, and other posters dogs, go?
 

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Shelter statistics have been on the drop since the 1970s
.

Where did you hear this? I have heard the opposite as of right now due to the economy drop, more people losing homes thus giving up or abandoning pets which end up in shelters.
 

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Yes there are bad owners out there and no one is going to argue that fact with you but I don't agree that just because someone works it means that they are bad owners, that's like saying people who work and have kids are bad parents. I agree with the others about education being the way to make a change. And this forum is one of the great places to start. Many of us have lots of experience with dogs and are above average owners and we offer advice and help to anyone who asks (free of charge)in hopes that we can help them to become better dog owners and then maybe they will even help their friends and family in return. So far the only solution to what you see as the problem is that all dogs who do not have an above average owner who doesn't work and spends all day training and exercising their dog should be put to sleep since we shouldn't be happy with knowing that they could be in a worse situation. Sorry that doesn't work for me. Also I completely disagree with the idea of most dogs coming from puppy mills. I think most dogs come from bybs and opps litters like someone mentioned, which isn't good either but that's the way it is and hopefully it will change.
 
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