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Discussion Starter #1
So today I brought Delilah to the vet for her DHPP and CIV boosters. She had her first set about three weeks ago. I was looking over the invoice and under "reminders" it says she needs DHLPP on 8/20/15 and then again on 9/13/15. I don't understand what this means. Does she really need the DHPP four times? If they wanted me to have the leptospirosis vaccine then why wouldn't they have just given me the DHLPP to begin with rather than bothering with the DHPP at all? I'm just wondering if this is a normal vaccination schedule for new dogs/rescue dogs/puppies. It seems really weird to me.
 

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Idk it could be due to her age maybe? Or Lepto needing fewer boosters? I'd call and ask. It is typical to get around 4 shots to cover parvo/distemper. But they really shouldn't be giving more than that just for the sake of giving lepto.

Honestly where I work, we don't give lepto at all. Or CIV. They get a DA2PP, which covers Distemper, Adenovirus types 1 and 2, Parainfluenza and Parvo. Lepto is a bacterial vaccine, and they are notorious for not being very effective. Some argue that the benefit is so small it's really not worth the risk of a reaction, and lepto is a more risky vaccine. We have it available as a single vaccine for clients that ask. But it's not recommended. Nor is lyme.
 

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Idk it could be due to her age maybe? Or Lepto needing fewer boosters? I'd call and ask. It is typical to get around 4 shots to cover parvo/distemper. But they really shouldn't be giving more than that just for the sake of giving lepto.

Honestly where I work, we don't give lepto at all. Or CIV. They get a DA2PP, which covers Distemper, Adenovirus types 1 and 2, Parainfluenza and Parvo. Lepto is a bacterial vaccine, and they are notorious for not being very effective. Some argue that the benefit is so small it's really not worth the risk of a reaction, and lepto is a more risky vaccine. We have it available as a single vaccine for clients that ask. But it's not recommended. Nor is lyme.
I need CIV so I can bring her to work with me. Is lyme not very effective? I was thinking about getting her lyme because I go hiking a lot and lyme disease is pretty common in my area. I've found ticks on Mia even though she gets monthly flea and tick control medication.

Would a 7 month old dog need 4 sets of DHPP? Or is that only for young puppies?
 

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Lepto is a bacterial vaccine, and they are notorious for not being very effective. Some argue that the benefit is so small it's really not worth the risk of a reaction, and lepto is a more risky vaccine. We have it available as a single vaccine for clients that ask. But it's not recommended. Nor is lyme.
Ugh. That is frustrating. My Vet touted it as this "You need to have this, or your dog is going to get really sick". He didn't mention any risks about it. God dammit.
 

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Please, please, be VERY AWARE of the problems with the "booster" combo vaccine. Besides the severe repercussions my Spicey dealt with for months following (when this shot was administered when I presented her with an obviously compromised immune system in the form of a skin infection on her nose), most of them are not necessary every year. You can test for the vaccine antibodies with a titer test. Getting the combo shot every year is especially dangerous for smaller dogs.

This very informative article advocates for vaccines every third year, which is much more reasonable than EVERY year. Here's an interesting snippet from it:
"...A titer only measures antibodies, not cell-mediated immunity, which is the real-world measure of protection. In fact, as I learned, pets can sometimes come up negative (unprotected) on the titers and still have plenty of perfectly protective, cell-mediated immunity."

Having said that, I finally located the thread I started (I was a tad emotional when I started the thing, and I've come down from my hysteria a bit since then...:)... a BIT.) about overvaccination. There's some similar/same links, and some other stories there. Here's a similar thread involving severe hair loss. I wish I knew how it all worked out with Fearghas...

My oldest girl turned 15 this past June; there will be no more combo shots for her. For Tiger and Spicey, I'm still considering.
 

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@mhop - so, for my dog, since he got all of his vaccinations as a puppy and isn't due for rabies yet, he can forgo the combo vaccination my vet says he needs?

I just ask because while I could muzzle him and drag him in there, I'd rather not unless he needs to go. He's not at a place in his life right now where he's legally required to have that vaccine -- he doesn't go to daycare or anything.

Just checking since he's only a year old; I didn't know if he needed a booster now and then could forgo or if the puppy vaccinations are good enough.


And, just a general wondering: is it not common practice to titer for rabies? I saw an article on my university website this morning how they are developing a titer for rabies. I knew they did it for other things, I just wasn't aware it wasn't common for rabies as well.

Here's the article, if you want to take a look:
Test offered by Kansas State University Veterinary Diagnostic Lab may help decrease yearly pet vaccines | Kansas State University | News and Communications Services
 

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Rabies is different. That's a shot that's required by law, so there's no way around that one. The main problem with the combo, is when it's administered and the dog has a reaction, you don't know which part of the 5, 6 or 7 part vaccine the reaction was from; maybe it was for all of them or some of them?

I don't like to say this, and this is only my opinion, but your vet is WRONG. NO DOG needs the combo shot EVERY YEAR. The other problem is immunity given by some vaccine components can last for years, even a lifetime, but other components may give immunity for less a year, yet they’re packaged together. I have no idea which viral components some vets believe need to be given more often than the others, and I think that also depends on the particular dog.

From the Mercola webpage:

"After your pet has received all his puppy shots, the antibodies he develops to the viruses he’s been immunized against will actually protect him from the same viruses introduced in future vaccinations.

In other words, if his puppy vaccinations are successful, his immune system response to subsequent vaccinations will fight off their effect, rendering them useless.

But vaccines, like any pharmaceutical drug, are not without side effects. So re-vaccinating for the same pathogens year after year is more than just a waste of your money – it also poses ever increasing risks to your pet’s health."
 

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@mhop: thanks. Honestly, I know we don't get notices to vaccinate every year for our other dogs (much more like every few years, which probably isn't necessary either) so I don't know why they've sent this one out. I don't plan on doing it - for his safety and peace of mind as well as my own.

I like the idea of titer testing and plan to do so in the future. It would be nice if they didn't have a combo, just separate vaccines, but maybe that would be more expensive?
 

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@mhop: thanks. Honestly, I know we don't get notices to vaccinate every year for our other dogs (much more like every few years, which probably isn't necessary either) so I don't know why they've sent this one out. I don't plan on doing it - for his safety and peace of mind as well as my own.

I like the idea of titer testing and plan to do so in the future. It would be nice if they didn't have a combo, just separate vaccines, but maybe that would be more expensive?
@PoppyKenna - I'm glad I could help if even a little, with as little hysteria now than I was suffering back then, anyway. :) Unfortunately titer testing is the only tool we have, so far as I know, as I don't think there's a way to test for that aforementioned cell-mediated immunity...? Maybe they'd have to biopsy something to test that way, and obviously, nobody is going to do put their dog through that.

Oh yes, vets absolutely CAN provide separate vaccinations. Like, if there's a prevalence of distemper or whatever in your area, you could get that shot when the titer shows a reduced immunity. It may be a little more expensive, but totally worth it in my opinion. Vaccinate for where immunity is lacking. That's it. Also, there was a big fat warning on the dognaturally site that stated in big letters: "And NEVER EVER GIVE ANY OTHER SHOT — ESPECIALLY A RABIES SHOT — WITHIN 3 WEEKS OF A COMBO."

I could have saved myself a big pile of money if I knew about the dangers of the combo shot "booster" before I took Spicey in to get treated for that infection that day. My only consolation is that Spicey didn't become deathly ill or die like I've read has happened elsewhere. I would never have forgiven myself for being an uneducated idiot. So I count that pile of money that I spent, my Stupid Tax. I never went back to that vet, and I'm still very angry about what he caused to occur. Live and learn.
 

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It's fantastic information to know. I haven't given much thought to boosers/vaccinations recently as I've never had cause to and I've been too caught up in the behavioral end of things. I will titer in the future and get separate vaccinations; good to know it's possible.

I'm wary of the health of all my dogs, but I just feel as though I need to exercise extra caution with my Chisum - being that he's some sort of Cocker (who have health problems anyway) coupled with the fact that from what I know of his background, his breeding is really, really poor......I'm just extra paranoid of something cropping up with him. Better safe than sorry.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Regardless, I need a number of vaccines so I can bring her to work so titers aren't an option for me. I'm wondering what's a typical schedule because I don't remember Mia ever getting 4 of the same combo in less than 3 months time as an adult dog. Maybe just as a very young puppy.
 

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RevolutionRocknroll - 4 combo shots in a row will kill your dog. It will kill ANY dog. If you have a record of ONE combo shot, with each of the viral lines necessary for immunity in your area, it is sufficient. If you ask for a 'typical schedule', you're doing to get the standard yearly booster line from your vet. Please don't do it.

PoppyKenna - This is kind of off topic, but you mentioned Chisum is a cocker (he's just beautiful too, BTW, I love your pics!)... I found this AWESOME ear cleaning recipe off a cocker family website that might come in handy some time. I found this site a few years ago, and wished I knew about it when I had my old lab who was constantly having ear problems. Now I don't have a single dog with ear flaps that completely cover the ear canal, go figure. :)

I think I got the boric acid powder off Amazon several years ago, but the rest of the ingredients you should be able to get locally. Be sure to get the higher 90+% rubbing alcohol content like the site explains too, as you want as little water content in the ear canal as possible. The recipe is just terrific, and an excellent preventative as well.
 

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If I may, I'll share the suggested vaccine schedule from Dr. Jean Dodds. The breeder I'm on the waiting list for has Dr. Dodds' schedule schedule listed on her site in a nice chart format, but Dr. Dodds only has it listed as a ... list. So, here's the information I found online that's the same chart as what I'm familiar with:

Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs

And here's the info direct from Dr. Dodds:

Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | 2013 and 2014 Canine Vaccination Protocol - W....

Anyway, I think that's one of the safest schedule suggestions that I'm aware of, and as you can see, it clearly says to make sure rabies vaccinations are given separately from everything else. That is definitely the major thing to be aware of. But basically, the fewer vaccinations you can do, the better.

If anything I've said or linked to is wrong, though, I appreciate feedback. This is something I've been researching for my future pup.
 

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Four combo shots in a row won't kill your dog... Not that they need this four of these in a row, but people make vaccines out to be WAY more harmful than they actually are.

Cite your sources
 

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@revolutionrocknroll - I just recalled that your pup is older and am wondering why she needs 4 sets of anything anyway (and then I went back to the first page and noticed you brought that up too! :p) I always thought that younger puppies were given sets of vaccinations because they were coming off their mother's immunity; I thought with older dogs boosters were fine, and only one at that, not a whole set.

I'd ask your vet why they want to give so many. I assume your workplace only requires your dog be vaccinated against those things (could be wrong) and that just the booster would be enough.

Also - sorry to hijack this thread! ;) I've never given so much thought to vaccines - which is my fault entirely. I really should be more well-read on the matter :)


@mhop - thanks for the link, and Chisum thanks you for the compliment :p. It's funny, my mother used to have a purebred Cocker (my aunt and uncle raised them) and I found a link with some of the smelliest dog breeds - of course Cockers were on there - and when I told my mom she just smiled, nodded, and said "the ears....". Haha.

His ears honestly look deceptively longer because the hair on them is so long, but they'll need upkeep for sure. I'm just happy that, behavioral issues aside, he's so bouncy, loving, and healthy *knock on wood*. The dogs that came into the rescue with him were all ages and most were very malnourished (either a hoarder or a puppy mill situation).

@Sha - that's an awesome chart! I saved it for future reference. Thanks for posting it :)http://www.dogforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/
 

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Four combo shots in a row won't kill your dog... Not that they need this four of these in a row, but people make vaccines out to be WAY more harmful than they actually are.

Cite your sources
No Problem!

3 Puppy Vaccination Mistakes: Too Early, Too Often, Too Much - Dogs Naturally Magazine

"...This means: no combo shots for small dogs — or any other dog for that matter. And NEVER EVER GIVE ANY OTHER SHOT — ESPECIALLY A RABIES SHOT — WITHIN 3 WEEKS OF A COMBO. This also means no Bordetella given nasally. Giving rabies and Bordetella with a combo could mean as many as 9 shots in one day. Some dogs don’t survive this."

Pet Vaccine Dangers and Recommendations

"Catherine O'Driscoll, from the charity, said: “We are not anti-vaccination. What we are saying is that currently our pets are receiving far too many. The latest scientific research shows that after the first course of injections as a puppy most dogs are immune against these diseases for at least seven years, if not for life.” "

Annual Dog Vaccination Dangers | Doglistener
Comments on this page: "Thank you so much for writing the truth about dog vaccinations. We had a puppy at eight weeks who had received his first set of vaccinations at six weeks old. In my opinion this is too early. He was ill the day after we got him home.
Eventually we found out he had autoimmune haemolytic anaemia. We managed to keep him going for another four weeks as he would improve a little after steroids but quickly deteriorate again. It was heart breaking! I really believe it was caused by vaccinating him too early."

My Dog Died from his Vaccinations - Dogs - MedHelp

Combo Shots for Dogs: A Dangerous Convenience | Truth4Dogs

Over-Vaccination - Dog Owners Beware - Whole Dog Journal Article

Are too many vaccinations bad for adult dogs? | Thatmutt.com

3 Puppy Vaccination Mistakes: Too Early, Too Often, Too Much - Dogs Naturally Magazine

... and there's lots more of these. These are stories of dogs and puppies dying from ONE combo shot. There's no question what would happen if there were 3 or 4 within a few months. That's just insane.
 

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Those aren't medical articles or scientific studies. Those are people drawing correlations where they might not exist.

Of course there are animals who have reactions to vaccines. There are people who have reactions to vaccines.

I mean, "Dogs Naturally Magezine"? "Truth4Dogs"? They cited absolutely no sources for where they got their information.

I've had plenty of dogs who've had combo vaccines (Including small ones) and know many, many other people who have gotten combo vaccines. Saying that some person's dog got sick/died after getting a combo vaccine does not prove that combo vaccines are dangerous.

[... and there's lots more of these. These are stories of dogs and puppies dying from ONE combo shot. There's no question what would happen if there were 3 or 4 within a few months. That's just insane.
There are stories of people's dogs dying from ONE rabies (not live) vaccine. Some dogs have reactions to vaccine. Just like some people drop dead from taking something as simple of ibuprofen. That doesn't mean ibuprofen is bad. Saying that your dog got a vaccine and then died shortly after actually doesn't prove anything.

Add up all of the stories you find of dogs dying from vaccine reactions, and then consider how many dogs there are in the world. Of course there is a (very) small portion of dogs that don't react well.

People getting all weird about dog vaccines is no different from people getting weird about human vaccines (which there is no proof for these being harmful either except for the occasional bad reaction)
 

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Wanted to add, those puppies probably did not get diseases from the vaccines. Puppies (and babies) still have passive immunity from mother, making most vaccines rather ineffective (hence why puppies require 3-4 rounds of parvo vaccine).

That truth4dogs site looks like the same kind of fear mongering crap that exists for human vaccines.
 

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You're right. We could debate this back and forth all day. Sure, there's tens of millions of dogs and cats out there that have had no problem with combo shots. I know plenty who have also. But I know several who HAVE had problems and there's one in my house right now, and I'm reading about others who have too.

It makes no sense to give annual booster shots to animals every year when we, as humans wouldn't do something like that.

I'm sure this was published somewhere, but I sure don't know where the actual scientific magazine citing the actual study is:

When it Comes to Vaccinating Your Pet Less is More
"Additionally, there are no adjustments in dose for size or age of your animal. Your five-pound Miniature Pinscher receives the same size vaccine as your 150-pound Rottweiler. Your 10-pound housecat gets the same amount as a 400-pound lion.

All of these vaccines are overwhelming your pet’s immune system. Vaccine reactions are at an all-time high.

A study of more than 2,000 cats and dogs in the United Kingdom by Canine Health Concern showed a 1 in 10 risk of adverse reactions from vaccines. This contradicts what the vaccine manufacturers report for rates of adverse reactions, which is “less than 15 adverse reactions in 100,000 animals vaccinated” (0.015 percent).

Additionally, adverse reactions of small breeds are 10 times higher than large breeds, suggesting standard vaccine doses are too high for smaller animals.
"

Most of these sites just don't list the case studies at the bottom, I'm afraid.

Also, trying to lump the overvaccination of dogs and cats with the human loonies that don't vaccinate their children AT ALL... does not equate. Again, it'd be different if humans were mandated to vaccinate their children every year, but that's not happening. It is with dogs though.
 

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Keep in mind, I am an advocate for minimal vaccination. It's not necessary to vaccinate every year, and it is good to spread out the vaccines (less chance of the normal types of reactions, like fever).

However, I hate fear mongering without even using science.

The immune system is constantly being exercised. Every day. Dogs eat poop, dead animals, all kinds of things. Vaccines are not more than the immune system can handle. You constantly inhale pathogens.

I absolutely agree that people should be careful and not vaccinate more than necessary. But there is no reason to say things like "this will kill your dog" when you don't have proof. In fact, I have way more proof that it most likely won't.

Small dogs are at higher risk, yes, so people who have small dogs should keep this in mind. But I have given combo vaccines to small dogs and it was fine. It very much depends on the dog. Definitely play it safe, but it does not make combo vaccines dangerous because some dogs react to them.
 
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