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Discussion Starter #1
From the agility thread.
ok...you asked for it:p
what do you do for confidence building? do you use a "target-hold" cue when targeting? have you ever used multiple targets at once? what is the most complicated behavior/behavior chain you have trained and how did you train it? when you are training, why are you training...what is your motivation? what is your biggest training failure? and were you able to correct it? what about accomplishment? why? do you think we should start a new thread for this discussion?

i think that the "sticking" better idea has some merit to it, but i don't know either...i do know that i like training this way better....but anyway, i don't think that it is that the dog necessarily learns it better or whatever...i think it has much more to do with the trainer's perception than the dog itself...and this type of training seems much more flexible in how to get to the goal than more traditional methods...ie to teach sit you can use a target/lure/capture etc but traditional methods almost always say to pull up on the head and push down on the rump....it also seems like there is less chance of messing the dog up this way...does all that make sense

on a side note...my cocker spaniel, who i had when i was a kid, was a genius...she knew soooo many behaviors from basic obedience to parlor tricks...she cleaned up all of her toys from the floor and put them in her toy box when i told her "clean up"....she would bring me her leash w/o a cue when she wanted a walk or with a cue when i wanted a walk....she would bring me stuff that was dropped on the floor when asked her....jumping over stuff and crawling under it....really she could do almost anything i could think of....she had a few issues that i think i would have been able to deal with way better now than before but all in all, she was one of those dogs that only took one or two sessions and the behavior was solid...sometimes, like picking up her toys, i only had to show her once....anyway to point is that i wasn't using this sort of training with her and those behaviors stuck pretty darn well

before I answer...you want just Emma examples...or my general opinion? lol :p



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Discussion Starter #3
omg I had an enormous reply and the computer turned off.

anyway...thats alot so I'll hit it in pieces.
what do you do for confidence building?
lots of little things...mainly reward heavy for ANYTHING...a look, a step...reward heavy for known behaviors...I taught Kiwi to heel between my legs as a suggestion from another trainer and that had magical results...you let them win at tug...ALOT...basically its alot of building self esteem...setting up situations for them to make the right choices....not asking for behaviors that Iam unsure they can do...OH and the biggest thing...I stopped using NRMs with my low self esteem dogs, they were hurting, not helping.


do you use a "target-hold" cue when targeting?
not sure what you mean? Like a sustained targeting?

I point a finger and they move....its insanely useful...and once they get it you can start to name the things you point at and then fade out the pointed finger...

have you ever used multiple targets at once?
Named targets yes..."crate" "car" "chair" "go to your bed" I can use all those in conjuntion with the pointing "touch" behavior. Its all targeting, just different cues.

targeting is an amazing behavior...did you know when you are driving if you watch the car in front of you, thats targeting? I'd say I use targeting as the base for everything I teach...and its the first thing I teach the dog after their name.

what is the most complicated behavior/behavior chain you have trained and how did you train it?
I thought long and hard about this one and I have two answers...first, I can run Emma, through multiple behaviors for a long long period of time. THis is an old old example.

YouTube - Behavior chain and the Crate game

in theory I can keep going until the dog gets tired or bored.

as far as a behavior chain for one cue...I'd say Tippys new retrieve...I can throw and item and say "pick it up" she will go get it and bring it back to my hand...I had to backchain that behavior so I had to start with her looking at the object and building up to mouthing...then biting...then holding...then picking it up...then picking it up into my hand...then further and further away....now she will pick up any object (or try too lol) that I present to her on cue.


when you are training, why are you training...what is your motivation?
I want my dogs to be happy. That and I idolize many of the trainers I see and want to be like them...I see the great relationships they have with their dogs...and I want that.

what is your biggest training failure? and were you able to correct it?
Using corrections on Scooter, my first dog...It still kills me inside. I no longer use physical corrections to train my dogs, so yes.


what about accomplishment? why?
not sure...I think bringing som' pretty messed up dogs to life is rewarding to me...that and the moments when I find out my advice helped som'one. I think its what the dogs have changed in ME thats the best thing, my patience, understanding, and frustration levels have changes dramatically since the dogs began to train me.



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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
i think that the "sticking" better idea has some merit to it, but i don't know either...i do know that i like training this way better....but anyway, i don't think that it is that the dog necessarily learns it better or whatever...i think it has much more to do with the trainer's perception than the dog itself...and this type of training seems much more flexible in how to get to the goal than more traditional methods...ie to teach sit you can use a target/lure/capture etc but traditional methods almost always say to pull up on the head and push down on the rump....it also seems like there is less chance of messing the dog up this way...does all that make sense
I think its superior...but I can't put my finger on why ( positive only vs freeshaping positive only)...I like it better personally than luring. But also I take into consideration iam training a pet with no serious goal...I think I would look at a competition dog from multiple angles depending on that dog and the behavior...but for my pets...I plan to always train this way for now.

When I got chili I made a goal to train him without lures and without corrections.....well...as minimal as possible (on the lures)...just out of curiousity to see if it could be done...I heard it could...and I have to agree...yes, yes it can...but it required, not to sound arrogant, alot of skill on my part as the trainer...I could not have done it two dogs ago.

basically a person, on a mental level has to decide if the want a dog, or a robot...when I got my first dog, to be honest...I wanted robotic, perfect training...but ironically, I didn't get it until I dropped the "dominant, you must obey me" attitude. I began to want my dog to WANT to do these things, not just do them because I said...I think thats the moment that all crossoever trainers have...where their priorities change.



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Discussion Starter #5
on a side note...my cocker spaniel, who i had when i was a kid, was a genius...she knew soooo many behaviors from basic obedience to parlor tricks...she cleaned up all of her toys from the floor and put them in her toy box when i told her "clean up"....she would bring me her leash w/o a cue when she wanted a walk or with a cue when i wanted a walk....she would bring me stuff that was dropped on the floor when asked her....jumping over stuff and crawling under it....really she could do almost anything i could think of....she had a few issues that i think i would have been able to deal with way better now than before but all in all, she was one of those dogs that only took one or two sessions and the behavior was solid...sometimes, like picking up her toys, i only had to show her once....anyway to point is that i wasn't using this sort of training with her and those behaviors stuck pretty darn well
you were probably doing more than you know...early experiences and genetics are certainly affect intelligence...I see people marker training all the time and don't know it. I see people crushing their dogs soul all the time too, and they are completely unaware...I think you had more to do with the abilities of that dog than you know. :)

Ok!!! Got it.



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you were probably doing more than you know...early experiences and genetics are certainly affect intelligence...I see people marker training all the time and don't know it. I see people crushing their dogs soul all the time too, and they are completely unaware...I think you had more to do with the abilities of that dog than you know. :)

Ok!!! Got it.
working backword...

i agree, i probably was...not to sound arrogant myself:eek: but i think some people have a bit of a knack for it...but i'm pretty sure i didn't use a voice marker....just had a thought...body language and facial expression!!!!! i probably made some sort of cheering motion and/or smiled when she got stuff right!!!!!!!!!!and she always made really amazing eye contact.....what do you think of that?

okay so i just had an "ah ha" moment myself.....

i think i need a real video camera...i think i'd be better if i took vids of me while training as well as of clover......



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I think its superior...but I can't put my finger on why ( positive only vs freeshaping positive only)...I like it better personally than luring. But also I take into consideration iam training a pet with no serious goal...I think I would look at a competition dog from multiple angles depending on that dog and the behavior...but for my pets...I plan to always train this way for now.

When I got chili I made a goal to train him without lures and without corrections.....well...as minimal as possible (on the lures)...just out of curiousity to see if it could be done...I heard it could...and I have to agree...yes, yes it can...but it required, not to sound arrogant, alot of skill on my part as the trainer...I could not have done it two dogs ago.

basically a person, on a mental level has to decide if the want a dog, or a robot...when I got my first dog, to be honest...I wanted robotic, perfect training...but ironically, I didn't get it until I dropped the "dominant, you must obey me" attitude. I began to want my dog to WANT to do these things, not just do them because I said...I think thats the moment that all crossoever trainers have...where their priorities change.
i hadn't been making that destinction...only between positive and traditional methods...but yes there is a difference with that too....

this yes yes yes! i think that if i'd had that attitude with clover he never would have come so far so quickly.
myself, i am very heavy with luring right now...i'd like to not rely on it so heavily, but i don't mind it since i also phase it out (usually some stuff i've been lazy about and you can see clover looking for bait:eek:) but the free shaping thing was really hard for me, i'm getting better at it tho...



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thanks for the insight Crio! I too have used corrections in the past and find that PR is working much better for us. Freeshaping...is that when you catch something and reward it and eventually are able to cue the behavior after so many rounds of it occuring?
 

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omg I had an enormous reply and the computer turned off.

anyway...thats alot so I'll hit it in pieces.


lots of little things...mainly reward heavy for ANYTHING...a look, a step...reward heavy for known behaviors...I taught Kiwi to heel between my legs as a suggestion from another trainer and that had magical results...you let them win at tug...ALOT...basically its alot of building self esteem...setting up situations for them to make the right choices....not asking for behaviors that Iam unsure they can do...OH and the biggest thing...I stopped using NRMs with my low self esteem dogs, they were hurting, not helping.




not sure what you mean? Like a sustained targeting?

I point a finger and they move....its insanely useful...and once they get it you can start to name the things you point at and then fade out the pointed finger...



Named targets yes..."crate" "car" "chair" "go to your bed" I can use all those in conjuntion with the pointing "touch" behavior. Its all targeting, just different cues.

targeting is an amazing behavior...did you know when you are driving if you watch the car in front of you, thats targeting? I'd say I use targeting as the base for everything I teach...and its the first thing I teach the dog after their name.



I thought long and hard about this one and I have two answers...first, I can run Emma, through multiple behaviors for a long long period of time. THis is an old old example.

YouTube - Behavior chain and the Crate game

in theory I can keep going until the dog gets tired or bored.

as far as a behavior chain for one cue...I'd say Tippys new retrieve...I can throw and item and say "pick it up" she will go get it and bring it back to my hand...I had to backchain that behavior so I had to start with her looking at the object and building up to mouthing...then biting...then holding...then picking it up...then picking it up into my hand...then further and further away....now she will pick up any object (or try too lol) that I present to her on cue.




I want my dogs to be happy. That and I idolize many of the trainers I see and want to be like them...I see the great relationships they have with their dogs...and I want that.



Using corrections on Scooter, my first dog...It still kills me inside. I no longer use physical corrections to train my dogs, so yes.




not sure...I think bringing som' pretty messed up dogs to life is rewarding to me...that and the moments when I find out my advice helped som'one. I think its what the dogs have changed in ME thats the best thing, my patience, understanding, and frustration levels have changes dramatically since the dogs began to train me.
is there an easy way to break up the quotes of one post into parts so you can reply to each individually?



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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
copy the quote...then just highlight what you want and hit the quote button (that talking bubbling thing next to the picture button)

thanks for the insight Crio! I too have used corrections in the past and find that PR is working much better for us. Freeshaping...is that when you catch something and reward it and eventually are able to cue the behavior after so many rounds of it occuring?
Iam very happy your having so much success..like I mentioned before, I love hearing that people are having success using these methods.

thats capturing...but yes, free shaping is similar...basically you sit with food and pick a goal (say its lay down) and don't give the dog any direction. Anything thats a smidge toward your goal is rewarded...so for down you may reward an offered sit first...or a bend of the knees......or looking at the ground..etc...


or...you don't start with a goal and just click anything and see where it goes...OR pick a goal part way through....theres not really a set way...if the dog is new I tend to reward everything (confidence building) and once they are offering lots of things I narrow it down.

the dog learns to basically make things up to figure out how to get the click...a free shaped dog will walk around the room touching things, picking them up, doing wierd things with their body...trying to make you click :) :)

Tippy for example...the other night...couldn't figure out what I wanted so she went to my pant leg and grabbed it and pulled. So i clicked and captured that behavior...but she would have never done that on her own before the shaping games. She then in the next session grabbed the comforter on the bed and pulled it...so I clicked again...



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thanks for the insight Crio! I too have used corrections in the past and find that PR is working much better for us. Freeshaping...is that when you catch something and reward it and eventually are able to cue the behavior after so many rounds of it occuring?
i'm not completely sure of this answer, but i'll have a go at it...
what you are describing is capturing...marking a complete behavior and rewarding for it then adding a cue....
in my understanding..capturing is part of free shaping. free shaping is marking and rewarding behaviors that are spontaneous and using them to shape a desired behavior...

so for take a bow and speak, i totally captured those behaviors the only shaping i did with take a bow was getting him to stand after instead of flopping his butt down...and that i lured...once he would bow down on cue, i then told him bow followed by showing him a treat, i would wait for him to stand up for the treat, the second he started to move into standing i would click...

but if i were to teach clover to spin to the left (which i haven't yet) i could click/mark turning his head to the left...then turning his head and neck...then turning his head neck and shoulders...and so on, gradually increasing how much he would have to turn in order to get a click and reward....



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copy the quote...then just highlight what you want and hit the quote button (that talking bubbling thing next to the picture button)


Iam very happy your having so much success..like I mentioned before, I love hearing that people are having success using these methods.

thats capturing...but yes, free shaping is similar...basically you sit with food and pick a goal (say its lay down) and don't give the dog any direction. Anything thats a smidge toward your goal is rewarded...so for down you may reward an offered sit first...or a bend of the knees......or looking at the ground..etc...


the dog learns to basically make things up to figure out how to get the click...a free shaped dog will walk around the room touching things, picking them up, doing wierd things with their body...trying to make you click :) :)

Tippy for example...the other night...couldn't figure out what I wanted so she went to my pant leg and grabbed it and pulled. So i clicked and captured that behavior...but she would have never done that on her own before the shaping games. She then in the next session grabbed the comforter on the bed and pulled it...so I clicked again...
omg!!!you just saved me soo much frustration....thank you:D:D:D



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Discussion Starter #15
myself, i am very heavy with luring right now...i'd like to not rely on it so heavily, but i don't mind it since i also phase it out (usually some stuff i've been lazy about and you can see clover looking for bait:eek:) but the free shaping thing was really hard for me, i'm getting better at it tho...
theres nothing wrong with luring at all...as long as you don't get stuck there. :)

I mostly didn't use it... out of curiousity...AND a have a wierd thing about not liking oily kibble in my hands...I hate the crumbs and oil in my hands:mad:

I just see so many dogs out there that will only work if you see a treat...and I didn't even want to even remotely go there..after all my goal is to fade out food completely...som'thing many traditonal trainers insist can't be done.

another thing with luring....som' dogs get sooooo excited about the treat in their face they cant think .Depending on what treat I use, Kiwi is this way and Chili got stupid once over real chicken...fries thier little minds.

EDIT: yeah we did huh!



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thats capturing...but yes, free shaping is similar...basically you sit with food and pick a goal (say its lay down) and don't give the dog any direction. Anything thats a smidge toward your goal is rewarded...so for down you may reward an offered sit first...or a bend of the knees......or looking at the ground..etc...
I do a little of both with my guys :)
 

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i'm not completely sure of this answer, but i'll have a go at it...
what you are describing is capturing...marking a complete behavior and rewarding for it then adding a cue....
in my understanding..capturing is part of free shaping. free shaping is marking and rewarding behaviors that are spontaneous and using them to shape a desired behavior...

so for take a bow and speak, i totally captured those behaviors the only shaping i did with take a bow was getting him to stand after instead of flopping his butt down...and that i lured...once he would bow down on cue, i then told him bow followed by showing him a treat, i would wait for him to stand up for the treat, the second he started to move into standing i would click...

but if i were to teach clover to spin to the left (which i haven't yet) i could click/mark turning his head to the left...then turning his head and neck...then turning his head neck and shoulders...and so on, gradually increasing how much he would have to turn in order to get a click and reward....
So...when all I did was put my finger to the ground and waited for them to take a bow then said "yes" or clicked...this is somewhat freeshaping? If they did a full down I made them stand and re-did the process.
 

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theres nothing wrong with luring at all...as long as you don't get stuck there. :)

I mostly didn't use it... out of curiousity...AND a have a wierd thing about not liking oily kibble in my hands...I hate the crumbs and oil in my hands:mad:

I just see so many dogs out there that will only work if you see a treat...and I didn't even want to even remotely go there..after all my goal is to fade out food completely...som'thing many traditonal trainers insist can't be done.

another thing with luring....som' dogs get sooooo excited about the treat in their face they cant think .Depending on what treat I use, Kiwi is this way and Chili got stupid once over real chicken...fries thier little minds.

EDIT: yeah we did huh!
I fade food out slowly but surely. Harvick will do all his tricks without treats. Does he expect them? No not at all, when we do have treats he has a harder time focusing like you said Crio. I have gotten Glacier to give me "paw" without showing him a treat then he gets one...

The way I personally do it, is I show them treats, ask for or shape for a behavior, give them a treat, then after a couple rounds of doing this I have a treat in a cup or pouch ask them for the behavior with an empty hand (which at first takes longer :p), then eventually ask them for the behavior and do a couple chains before they get a treat, etc etc. slowly not giving them a treat but praise. Sorry I butted in.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
So...when all I did was put my finger to the ground and waited for them to take a bow then said "yes" or clicked...this is somewhat freeshaping? If they did a full down I made them stand and re-did the process.

you used targeting so you could capture it.



shaping is when you have to slowly build the behavior...like if you rewarded a half bow then a 3/4 bow...then a full bow :) :)



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Discussion Starter #20
I fade food out slowly but surely. Harvick will do all his tricks without treats. Does he expect them? No not at all, when we do have treats he has a harder time focusing like you said Crio. I have gotten Glacier to give me "paw" without showing him a treat then he gets one...

The way I personally do it, is I show them treats, ask for or shape for a behavior, give them a treat, then after a couple rounds of doing this I have a treat in a cup or pouch ask them for the behavior with an empty hand (which at first takes longer :p), then eventually ask them for the behavior and do a couple chains before they get a treat, etc etc. slowly not giving them a treat but praise. Sorry I butted in.

This is basically what I do for most things. I don't really *show* them the treat...but I know they know its there. Which is similar. Like I mentioned before, I don't like to hold the treats personally, but nothing wrong with doing it that way,. :) :)



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