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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
i wasn't sure where to put this behavior or training...but anyway

so i've been working on leash training clover...we are doing really well. the only thing that i'm not sure how to deal with is dogs...clover gets soooo excited about meeting other dogs...sometimes it is really embarrassing...

i'm not as worried about being embarrassed as i am about how to deal with this behavior and teach him to be polite...one reason i've been looking into group classes i'm hoping to learn this...in an environment with other dogs learning the same thing...

anyway, i feel like lately he has been showing signs of frustration when he doesn't get to meet another dog while on leash...twice now in fact he has done a lunging thing...lunged to the end of the leash, as if desperate to meet the other dog, and made a very frustrated yelping noise, there was no growl or anything but i'm a little concerned that i might be creating leash aggression...i mean by frustrating him in those situations...if that makes sense...

so far when we see other dogs we either stay far enough away to avoid reaction, i put him in a sit and keep him there until the dog has passed, or i ask permission to allow him to greet the other dog...greeting the other dog has had the best over-all results, he will greet and then we can go on with our day, but it isn't always an option...



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I'm a pretty shy person, but I would bite that down, and just say "OHHH my goofy pup really wants to meet your dog is that OK?" and try it that way.

I find also dropping my leash makes a better 'meeting on leash' because with all the straining at the end of the leash, one of them is going to growl-by dropping my leash, I at least eliminate Mikey giving the wrong signals (straining) and I can trust him to 'get out of dodge' should the other dog be trouble..

If they say No, I'd be prepared with treats and do a heeling exercise-like that one that was in the video Crio sent me for desensitizing a 'fearful dog-aggressive dog' (for us to work on with Mandy) -the lady pretty much starting heeling, turning etc with treats and the dog gave her full attention.

But that's just my guess on what to do ? ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #4
is there a way to reward his good behavior with allowing him to meet the other dog? At least occasionally?
would that be premack? i do try this, as often as possible...like i said, we have the smoothest time when we can "go say hi" to the other dog, sometimes clover starts trying to initiate play, but usually it is a good sniff and some tail wagging...then we can go about our business....
I'm a pretty shy person, but I would bite that down, and just say "OHHH my goofy pup really wants to meet your dog is that OK?" and try it that way.

I find also dropping my leash makes a better 'meeting on leash' because with all the straining at the end of the leash, one of them is going to growl-by dropping my leash, I at least eliminate Mikey giving the wrong signals (straining) and I can trust him to 'get out of dodge' should the other dog be trouble..
i'm not shy about it generally, but i've met with some very fearful and/or annoyed responses to this...doesn't really bother me, but it means that dog greetings aren't always and option... i don't always let go of the leash, that would really freak people out...clover looks scary to people...especially when he is bounding at their little dog...hard to convince them that one of his best playmates is a little guy...but i do let out any tension that is in it...
If they say No, I'd be prepared with treats and do a heeling exercise-like that one that was in the video Crio sent me for desensitizing a 'fearful dog-aggressive dog' (for us to work on with Mandy) -the lady pretty much starting heeling, turning etc with treats and the dog gave her full attention.
i'm hoping that something like this would work...i've tried different things like this, for example when i put him in a sit, he gets steady rewards for being patient and sitting...i've also done direction changes and heavy rewards, but what he wants more then any food i've offered is to go meet the new dog....

so far, he isn't imo leash aggressive, but i've read that it is often created by the dog being frustrated at not being allowed to greet another dog, and then there is tension on the leash....and i definitely see clover getting frustrated...i'm hoping to prevent this problem...i think that if i could set up controled meetings with other dogs to teach a patient greeting, using the greeting as a reward, but i don't know who i could get to help with this...i suppose i could try a couple of training sessions at the dog park? what do you think? since i know people are bringing their dogs there to play with other dogs anyway?
i already use off leash freedom as a reward for recall...i call him to come he comes and i leash him then unleash and release....and a variety of things like that...works really well, except of course for other dogs, there is a certain space between me and clover and clover and the dog that we still haven't got down, but that space is increasing...



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If they say No, I'd be prepared with treats and do a heeling exercise-like that one that was in the video Crio sent me for desensitizing a 'fearful dog-aggressive dog' (for us to work on with Mandy) -the lady pretty much starting heeling, turning etc with treats and the dog gave her full attention.
Where's the video?
 

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would that be premack?
technically...all PR training is premack :) ;) so yes.

i'm hoping that something like this would work...i've tried different things like this, for example when i put him in a sit, he gets steady rewards for being patient and sitting...i've also done direction changes and heavy rewards, but what he wants more then any food i've offered is to go meet the new dog
thats why I think meeting the dog is your solution :) at least until you can install som' really strong behaviors....perhaps practice attention far away from a dog and move closer?

.i suppose i could try a couple of training sessions at the dog park? what do you think? since i know people are bringing their dogs there to play with other dogs anyway?
This is where I work on Chili's barrier frustration issues...I think it will work for your situation as well. :)

but yes, the frustration can change from whining... to barking and lunging pretty fast...so I'd start on this asap. :) :)



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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
This is where I work on Chili's barrier frustration issues...I think it will work for your situation as well. :)

but yes, the frustration can change from whining... to barking and lunging pretty fast...so I'd start on this asap. :) :)
that is my worry...so i'm glad i asked...

the more i think about it, the more i feel silly for not using the dog park before...:eyeroll: then i don't have to worry about annoying people, and there are plenty of dogs that we already know there...i may even be able to talk some folks into helping me at other times when they see me working on it there too...

thats why I think meeting the dog is your solution :) at least until you can install som' really strong behaviors....perhaps practice attention far away from a dog and move closer?
do you have suggestions for anything else to do in the mean time? one of the 2 lunging incidents happened at the vet...in a situation where the other dog's owner wasn't able to let his dog say hello...i just tried not to react too much, called clover back to me and tried to get his attention...and i rewarded him for making eye contact for a sec during the whole thing...

edit: one of my struggles with this is that i am so used to using leash corrections....i've gotten much better, but i definitely don't want to use corrections in this situation...any way...



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do you have suggestions for anything else to do in the mean time? one of the 2 lunging incidents happened at the vet...in a situation where the other dog's owner wasn't able to let his dog say hello...i just tried not to react too much, called clover back to me and tried to get his attention...and i rewarded him for making eye contact for a sec during the whole thing...

.

thats pretty much what you have to do if you can't leave...damage control...just make the best of it...perhaps walk outside with him if he wont stop :)



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slow those meetings down. drag them out.

prearrage walks with your neighbors and what not..and do this

walk for a bit to where he glimpses the other dog. keep walking. arrange another glimpse..longer this time..do it again..longer and longer each time..reward good behavior..then try walking in tandem..one on one side of the street and the other person and dog on the other. then just kind of drift towards each other and keep walking. reward for good behavior and break it off and try again another day.

you are basically making it look to the dog like he got introed to this other dog a lot instead of just once..

los dos pesos de mi :)
 

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addendum.

what im suggesting is a sort of backhanded positive reinforcement masquerading as extinction.

by controlling the environment and setting him up to win, and through extinction of - behavior(you walk away when he acts up) you add to the reinforcement of good behavior.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
slow those meetings down. drag them out.

prearrage walks with your neighbors and what not..and do this

walk for a bit to where he glimpses the other dog. keep walking. arrange another glimpse..longer this time..do it again..longer and longer each time..reward good behavior..then try walking in tandem..one on one side of the street and the other person and dog on the other. then just kind of drift towards each other and keep walking. reward for good behavior and break it off and try again another day.

you are basically making it look to the dog like he got introed to this other dog a lot instead of just once..

los dos pesos de mi :)
this is a great idea...at the moment i'm having a hard time finding other people with dogs to practice with...tho...

tho i just ran into an aquaintence who may be able to help...

what do you think about the dog park idea?

oh and any suggestions for getting started with that? i was planning on doing my normal routine with him at first then having him come for very very short leash sessions...walk a couple of steps then release....also i was planning on doing some walking on the outside of the fence rewarding for patience by going inside for a romp...depending on how things go of course...



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dog park? not yet imo. thats more of a step up thing to me.

when i take on a dog for training..i observe them..a lot. i break the negative behavior down into pieces..like..first thing he does is..say..snarl a bit...ok so i address the snarling first. behavior is merely chains of littler behaviors..if you break up the chain and address it piece by oiece you..

a. make it easier on both of you..

b. are very likely to get rid of the behavior faster becaused you've confused the chain..in scientific terms you are redirecting a neural feedback loop.

it often helps to change the way you conceptualize the issue at hand.

as for finding folks to help..it just takes time...though ive gone so far as to put ads on craigslist to find help with these kinds of things.
 

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when Iam refering to the dog park Iam talking about you on one side of the fence and the dogs on the other, at varying distances...kinda like renting dogs to use for training LOL

I have used neighbors dogs for this, but they tend to be barking/freaking out a bit to much to use except at far away distances. Dog park dogs tend to be less excited to see a novel dog...though there are certainly exceptions..



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my reasoning is that its one dog in a more controlled environment vs multiple dogs in a less controllable environment

i try to start with the easiest and move to the hardest to control.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
dog park? not yet imo. thats more of a step up thing to me.

when i take on a dog for training..i observe them..a lot. i break the negative behavior down into pieces..like..first thing he does is..say..snarl a bit...ok so i address the snarling first. behavior is merely chains of littler behaviors..if you break up the chain and address it piece by oiece you..

a. make it easier on both of you..

b. are very likely to get rid of the behavior faster becaused you've confused the chain..in scientific terms you are redirecting a neural feedback loop.

it often helps to change the way you conceptualize the issue at hand.

as for finding folks to help..it just takes time...though ive gone so far as to put ads on craigslist to find help with these kinds of things.
of course, breaking it down into small steps makes sense...we already do a lot recall practice at the dog park, same as off leash walking...call him, reward him, release him...that sort of thing...the amount of time i keep him before release varies....during these practices i sometimes leash, and sometimes not....
mostly i do this so that we don't have an "oh no the fun is over" issue when it is time to go...i was sort of thinking of building on that...but yeah...probably too much

i am looking into training classes...at this point i think that i'll be able to make it happen in january...i'm hoping that working on some skills in that environment will help...i haven't sat in on a class yet tho, otherwise i'll have to find someone for private lessons...gonna discuss that with the instructor too...

what motivates your dog? in order of importance?

like does he respond more to one thing over the other?
that is difficult to answer as i would say it varies according to the situation...i know that my attention is a big reinforcer for him...(that includes the rewards that he gets from me...if that makes any sense)...he loves dogs (thus the current "issue") he has a similar reaction to children btw, he really wants to greet them...but not to the same degree...

my reasoning is that its one dog in a more controlled environment vs multiple dogs in a less controllable environment

i try to start with the easiest and move to the hardest to control.
again, that makes sense...especially when i'm trying to get a foundation behavior...
when Iam refering to the dog park Iam talking about you on one side of the fence and the dogs on the other, at varying distances...kinda like renting dogs to use for training LOL
so would you say it would be okay to go in the park for play then leave and train for a bit, then go in and play? we can only go to the dog park on weekends until it starts staying light later...right now it is dark before i get off work and the park closes at dark...
I have used neighbors dogs for this, but they tend to be barking/freaking out a bit to much to use except at far away distances. Dog park dogs tend to be less excited to see a novel dog...though there are certainly exceptions..
there are a couple of houses on our normal walking routes with dogs...i can hear them barking...this usually gets clover's attention...what do you think about starting with this...being patient when we hear dogs?



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so would you say it would be okay to go in the park for play then leave and train for a bit, then go in and play? we can only go to the dog park on weekends until it starts staying light later...right now it is dark before i get off work and the park closes at dark...
personally, I don't see an issue unless hes practicing the unwanted behavior...does he pull you towards dogs at the park?

there are a couple of houses on our normal walking routes with dogs...i can hear them barking...this usually gets clover's attention...what do you think about starting with this...being patient when we hear dogs?
I started first with barking, but not visible dogs...and then progressed. We started using the dog park dogs at over a hundred feet away or more, and then progressed :) but yes we practiced in the street at home first. Before moving on to lot of dogs.


I have no access to helpers so this was my only practical avenue. If you can get a helper, like Zim suggested, that would be superior :)



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it ultimately depends on your particular dp i think. the one here...is...awful(understatement of the century) but i think if you do the dp thing..use caution. if tons of people show up or any kind of situation containing extra stressors happens..leave. the idea is to make the good experience insanely good and minimize thebad.

have you ever tried to build drive? or use tiered rewards?
 

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im getting to the rest of it...just thinking a bit before posting. can you tell me more about him? general stuff? likes and dislikes and general temperment? or direct me to threads with that stuff?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
personally, I don't see an issue unless hes practicing the unwanted behavior...does he pull you towards dogs at the park?
not really...but i think making sure that he doesn't may be a good place to start with him...i haven't deliberately worked on much there except recall...
we usually pull up and go right in....

I started first with barking, but not visible dogs...and then progressed. We started using the dog park dogs at over a hundred feet away or more, and then progressed :) but yes we practiced in the street at home first. Before moving on to lot of dogs.

I have no access to helpers so this was my only practical avenue. If you can get a helper, like Zim suggested, that would be superior :)
i think this is a good way to start until i get helpers...i mean, i don't think it could hurt to work on it this way....
it ultimately depends on your particular dp i think. the one here...is...awful(understatement of the century) but i think if you do the dp thing..use caution. if tons of people show up or any kind of situation containing extra stressors happens..leave. the idea is to make the good experience insanely good and minimize thebad.
my dp is ok... i've gotten pretty good at smelling out trouble and i opt to just leave before it happens...this means leaving when certain dogs/people show up and when certain mixes (ie dogs that clover gets on with but that don't seem to like each other)show up...the park is completely fenced w 2 entry gates...it isn't very big...has a small dog side and an all dog side...
have you ever tried to build drive? or use tiered rewards?
no i haven't tried to build drive...i've recently been trying to add tug to our training sessions, but i've had mixed results so far....
i'm not sure what tiered rewards are...like variable rewards? a better reward for a better behavior? not sure...
im getting to the rest of it...just thinking a bit before posting. can you tell me more about him? general stuff? likes and dislikes and general temperment? or direct me to threads with that stuff?
history...i'll try to keep this short, if i can...lol...i'm a bit long-winded:whistle:
i've had him for just over 6 months now...he was probably about 10 mos when i got him...he had been in foster for 1 month, and he was at a shelter for about 1 month before that...he was picked up as a stray so who knows his history...his foster home wasn't much better then the pound imo...he was kept in an outdoor kennel, mostly by himself...his foster mom described him as "mellow, engaging, social and trainable" all true...

he has seperation anxiety...it has improved a lot...but still he has it...working that one out....

i'm sure he missed some important socialization when he was at that critical age...but i can't recall any random things he has ever really been afraid of (like strange shapes etc ) i encourage him to go and check stuff like that out just in case, but honestly i don't think he really cares...people on the other hand have been a different story

i am assuming that he was abused....first night here, he messed in the house, and just my turning toward him and gasping a bit was enough to send him cowering to the corner... there were other times when i would lift my hand to throw something, or move my foot, and the same thing...he was down, in a corner cowering like he was waiting for a blow to fall...

i've done A LOT of counter-conditioning with him... and it still continues... i haven't seen him flinch in quite a while...and he now accepts my roommate...
http://www.dogforum.com/dog-behavior/so-weve-been-working-sorry-long-1640/
http://www.dogforum.com/dog-training/my-dog-snapped-my-roommate-advice-1171/
these two threads sort of sum that up...we still do tons of stuff...i try to take him to all sorts of places and keep it as positive for him as i can

let's see...i've yet to see him really "chase" anything that wasn't another dog in play...tho he does follow the cats around the house from time to time...oh and i guess he chases me when we play tag type games...it took us about 2 weeks to get him to really play with any of his toys... he likes kids a lot...from really small to like 10-13 or so, then i think they are big enough to look grown up and i get mixed results...(now he is way better, but he used to hide behind me a lot when we met people) he will whine and want to go greet little kids in the same manner he does with dogs...but not at the same level of intensity... he "guarded" my neighbors 5yo from a stranger once...
he likes to be pet...he is a "leaner" really gets into it...and he "asks" for pets from lots of people now when he meets them...
he takes to most women pretty quickly, some instantly, but men...it is hit or miss...and never in the same way...

i have never seen/heard him growl/snap at another dog... he has done some resource guarding a handful of times with our cats... but that is the only animal i've seen that with...

he plays with my neighbors little dog regularly (i would love this dog to be an option to help with training, but sadly he is not:() when playing with other dogs, he is happy to play really ruff, or mellow...

i can't think of anything else to add....um...is that the sort of thing you were asking for?



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