Dog Forum banner

1 - 20 of 40 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Crate training, this is an excellent method for teaching a new dog or puppy how to hold their bladder or how to sleep through the night. Many people may have different ideas how it should be done, and for how long, but the end result is usually an adult dog who doesn’t go to the bathroom in the house.

When I crate trained my puppy, the door was always open so it wasn’t a strange if bad place. The crate was never used as a punishment; she didn’t come out whilst she was screaming and making a fuss. The crate was her calm place, and she was house trained in no time. She was only there to eat, or when we had to go out for a long time. We made sure to startslowly adjust her to being out if the cage when we went out of the house for 10 minutes, 30 mins, 1 hour, and so on till she no longer needed a crate.

Once your puppy is house trained, everyone can agree you don’t need to crate then anymore, right? WRONG! I’m sure we have all met those crazy owners who believe their one way is the only way, or those who force their habits into their dog (overfeeding, underfeeding, extreme discipline, lack of discipline). One particular type of owner annoys me. The owner who crates a dog all day, everyday, for no real reason and believes they are in the right.

Crate training doesn’t mean that you lock your dog up all day and only let them play for a couple of hours each day. This can have a worse effect on your dog than just keeping it in the backyard all day, everyday. Being locked in a right space all day can, and will, cause various problems. The most common excuse for doing this is because the dog isn’t house trained. Well, you know what, you wanted a dog, a dog is our best friend, a dog is born into the world loving us for no reason, and all dogs are capable of learning, and most are very willing to learn as well.

If you keep a dog locked up in a cage all day and call it crate training or “kennel” training, that is NOT training at all. If you want a dog and claim to love your dog so much, spend a little time training it so he too can enjoy your company. I understand some people have disabilities and can’t physically train their dogs or have other reasons, but some people are straight up lazy. Some dogs are a handful and some dogs are very strong physically and mentally. If you have difficulties, maybe those dogs aren’t the dog for you. However, all dogs are capable of destroying your home if you don’t put in the effort to train them.

No dog should be crated for longer than 8 hours maximum. With younger dogs, they shouldn’t be crated for more than 4 hours. There are so many problems that 22 hours of crating can cause. Crating a dog for this long isolates it and deprives it of enough social time with people and other dogs. This can lead to the dog becoming overprotective of their space and could lead to fights or a dog hurting someone who intrudes on their cage.

I discovered this when borrowing a friend’s crate. The dog tried to attack my puppy after we had the crate a few weeks. This friend, in my opinion, is an over-crater. As well as these few psychological effects, and probably many more, over crating can cause some serious health issues. Being cramped up all day can cause hip problems or back problems. Yes, they are supposed to have enough room to stand and turn, but this doesn’t mean they will. After a while, they will start to feel depressed and just lie there not moving, just waiting to go play. Also, if the dog tries to escape, it can hurt its mouth or paws from digging or scratching at the plastic or metal, and if they ingest a loose piece, the could have internal issues, such as intestinal blockages.

If you keep a dog locked a cage, don’t be surprised when he is anti-social and impossible to control due to the energy that is stored up from lack of action. A dog that is well trained won’t forget how to behave if it no longer has a cage. If your dog does misbehave, that means your dog wasn’t trained in the first place! If you can’t control your dog without locking it away, don’t tell me I’m raising my dogs wrong because I don’t crate them. My dogs aren’t “exceptional” because they can live in a house with out destroying it, they have been trained. Yes, the puppy will chew stuff up every now and then like paper, but what can you expect from a puppy? Your dog is your best friend, NOT a prison inmate!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
Oh goodie, another subject near and dear to my heart.

Never got the appeal of locking a dog in a cage for house training purposes. Had many puppies through my life, they always got "do it outdoors" pretty quick. Feed the younger ones 3 times a day starting out, spend lots of time outside, they went to bed with a full belly and rarely had accidents and I don't recall a pup being up all night singing the song of his people. Pups bed was a low cut box with a blanket, they could easily step out of it.

If they do pee or poop overnight, big deal, clean it up. Every piece of poop that drops out the rear end of this current dog gets picked up and checked. It's poop, he's raw fed, it's part of the game.

Anyone ever stop to think that maybe all the treats their pups are getting prolongs the house breaking time? Always having food running through their systems can't be helping matters much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
I totally agree with your post! Once a dog is potty trained and you can trust it enough to roam inside the house when you are away, lose the crate. There is no reason to crate your dog when you are home as part of a normal routine. If there are behaviour issues, work on the training, instead of relying on the crate.

I've lived in Europe for a while, and crating there is not popular. After potty training, Europeans lose the crate. I find regular crating to be more of a North American practice.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,613 Posts
I would be stunned if anyone on this forum is crating their dogs for upwards of 8 hours, so I think you're preaching to the choir. Both of my dogs are crate trained, and we play a lot of crate games. Sometimes when we leave the house, we leave them out, and sometimes we crate them.
My dogs are both trustworthy, and sleep with my hubby and I in bed at night. During the day, they will seek out their crates for naps.
My guys need to be comfortable with crates for the entirety of their lives, since they will need to be crated when we go to dog shows, agility trials, any sort of long term stay at the vet, if we ever have to fly anywhere, if they've hurt themselves (I mean really, try to keep a BC at rest for more than a few hours...), staying at doggy daycare/boarding, or if they need a space to get away from someone or each other.
Crates aren't evil, they are a tool. Like everything else, they can be used properly or misused.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
I would be stunned if anyone on this forum is crating their dogs for upwards of 8 hours
Prepare to be stunned. Some of the comments left as advice are disheartening to say the least, up to and including using a divider to contain the pup to a smaller area of the crate - so they only have space to stand up, lay down or turn around.


I've read the comments that the dog hates the crate, hates going in but we use it anyway. The list goes on and on.

It is disheartening.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
439 Posts
Prepare to be stunned. Some of the comments left as advice are disheartening to say the least, up to and including using a divider to contain the pup to a smaller area of the crate - so they only have space to stand up, lay down or turn around.


I've read the comments that the dog hates the crate, hates going in but we use it anyway. The list goes on and on.

It is disheartening.
I have not crate trained Bandit yet, however I will because it's an important skill for him to have in case I need to use it. However I do know that the divider is so that the pup doesn't designate a "pee corner" and a "sleep corner" and soil the crate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
I totally agree with your post! Once a dog is potty trained and you can trust it enough to roam inside the house when you are away, lose the crate. There is no reason to crate your dog when you are home as part of a normal routine. If there are behaviour issues, work on the training, instead of relying on the crate.

I've lived in Europe for a while, and crating there is not popular. After potty training, Europeans lose the crate. I find regular crating to be more of a North American practice.
As dogs are den and pack animals in the wild, a crate is like a den and cozy place for them. My 2.5 year old lab goes in her crate to snooze.....the door is always open. It was open even when she was a puppy. The crate was in a baby gated area so she could come out and poop or pee on papers, typically as far away from her crate as possible.

When dogs are in the litter box with mom, the mom will lick their poop and pee parts to stimulate the pups' urination and poop response. When potty training outdoors, this can be replaced with a soft-spoken word or phrase like "go potty". Do this when they are already starting to go so they then associate the words and tone with going potty. Now that my lab is older, she will go on "command" for those rainy days when I want her to go quickly and not spend time sniffing around for critters.

As others have mentioned, never use a crate for punishment, but rather, as a nice place for their comfort and need to be in their "den".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,634 Posts
I'm guilty of saying Echo hates the crate. She doesn't, what she hates is being restricted to a small space when we aren't around. We tried it once for less than two minutes and it was a disaster! We aren't willing to put her through that distress again since the ex-pen stops her getting into anything dangerous, she loves chewing electrical cords:(. If we are in the house she likes the crate; door open or closed. She also has no problems with crating to go in the car And will actively seek it out in strange houses because it's a safe place.

People tend to exaggerate things when they are frustrated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
917 Posts
I never used a crate to house train, I used the crate to keep the puppies from getting into things when I couldn't keep an eye on them. Nevada was the only one who slept in one at night, everyone else started out in bed. And they all went willingly into the crate well into adulthood, even after I stopped needing to crate them to go out. I wish I would have crate trained Freyja when she was younger, she hasn't been left alone and I don't know how she will take being caged at the vets after her spay. Though the vet said that if needed she can stay in an exam room.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
917 Posts
I know it's off topic but it sounds like your vet is awesome @annageckos
She is, I love this vet. The really put the animals first. If she would see people I'd go there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chas

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
You know the one thing I can't find online? One dog, one crate - over the course of a 24 hour period. I want to see one video - undoctored, unabridged, unchanged of a dog that's "loving" being confined for 6, 8, 10, 12 hours a day or more. Easy with todays' technology, buy a camera and record your dog.

Some people go to work, dog in in the crate for the extent of their working day. Someone may come in and let them out for a pee, but then it's back in the crate. Then they get crated overnight. How many hours a day "could" that be? But people tend to say, "my dog loves it!", its the goldfish in a bowl all over again.

Dogs have been with us for the last 15,000 or so years? They became trusted and respected members of the family unit. Humans have shaped the wolf into what dogs are today - different breeds, different tools etc. I don't think there is any animal on the face of this planet that has caused humans to evolve more than dogs - they became our tools to help out with every day life. 15,000 years...


One of the common themes on this positive forum seems to be lack of trust for the dog. Dog can't be trusted not to tear up the house, can't be trusted at the dog park, can't be trusted not to pee on the floor. So to that end, who is the crate beneficial to - the dog or the person?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,652 Posts
neither of my dogs needed a crate to be potty trained or learn to stay alone on the house fo a while, but as long as the dog gets enough attention to meet his needs, it has every day training, exercise and is sufficiently socialised and stimulated, I don't think people are cruel when they have their dog locked in once in a while for an hour or two.
Of course only as long as the dog is used to is and isn't unhappy in the crate.

At the beginning we had made one room in the house "puppy proof" to make sure the dog doesn't destroy the house and gets itself into trouble, which is basically like a giant crate. :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chas

·
Registered
Joined
·
439 Posts
You know the one thing I can't find online? One dog, one crate - over the course of a 24 hour period. I want to see one video - undoctored, unabridged, unchanged of a dog that's "loving" being confined for 6, 8, 10, 12 hours a day or more. Easy with todays' technology, buy a camera and record your dog.

Some people go to work, dog in in the crate for the extent of their working day. Someone may come in and let them out for a pee, but then it's back in the crate. Then they get crated overnight. How many hours a day "could" that be? But people tend to say, "my dog loves it!", its the goldfish in a bowl all over again.

Dogs have been with us for the last 15,000 or so years? They became trusted and respected members of the family unit. Humans have shaped the wolf into what dogs are today - different breeds, different tools etc. I don't think there is any animal on the face of this planet that has caused humans to evolve more than dogs - they became our tools to help out with every day life. 15,000 years...


One of the common themes on this positive forum seems to be lack of trust for the dog. Dog can't be trusted not to tear up the house, can't be trusted at the dog park, can't be trusted not to pee on the floor. So to that end, who is the crate beneficial to - the dog or the person?
You are saying a whole lot here without really saying anything beneficial. No one would crate a dog for 24 hours, that is a ridiculous assumption and doesn't add anything to the discussion so I'm ignoring it.

There is a difference between knowing your dogs personal limits and not trusting them. I trust Bandit with my life, when I hike with him, I put the first aid supplies in his backpack because I trust him to stay close. However, I know that my dog cannot defend himself against any other dog, so I don't allow unsupervised play. I know my dog cannot understand the danger of a speeding car, so he is never off leash around a road. None of that means I don't trust my dog. If someone crates their dog because unsupervised they would tear up the house, did it occur to you that maybe they don't want their dog to get into something dangerous that could hurt them? If a person knows that their dog has issues with other dogs do you really want them to "trust" their dog enough to allow them in a dog park where their or someone else's dog could get seriously hurt? Crates are a great tool, one that I will utilize when I am in a feasible situation.

I'm sorry that this is probably coming across very rude. But I'm really tired of the condescending way things are being "debated" lately.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,634 Posts
Humans haven't been living in houses that long and dogs in the house unsupervised is a relatively new concept. I don't expect any dog to magically know house rules, they are arbitrary. Why shouldn't they chew the walls? Except that we deem it unwanted behavior. That's not an issue with trust that's working on communication.

That said, I definitely don't trust my dog not to electrocute herself, that's not a danger she can comprehend. Since she's doing amazingly with leave it she's able to roam with me and once I'm satisfied she's no longer interested in cords I'll leave her out.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
No one would crate a dog for 24 hours
People don't read do they. Over the course of a 24 hour period - over the course of one day. If the dog spends 12 hours a day in the kennel over a 24 hour period - I would love to see the video.

And I'm not being condescending, I'm asking questions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
439 Posts
People don't read do they. Over the course of a 24 hour period - over the course of one day. If the dog spends 12 hours a day in the kennel over a 24 hour period - I would love to see the video.

And I'm not being condescending, I'm asking questions.
I reread your post and I still don't see how that's how you meant it but that's fine. You ignored the part of my post that addressed the topic of crate-trainers not trusting their dogs (which, by the way, is an extremely condescending assumption).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
917 Posts
I'd say they liked the crate enough to go into it to sleep on their own through out the day and night. Crating was for their safety when I had to go out, the last thing I wanted to come home to was a torn up apartment or a dead or sick puppy. Then Shorty was the worst, it was always back and forth. He'd find something to get into, I'd figure a way to keep him out. He'd find a way in, or into something else, back and forth. I would do things differently now.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,222 Posts
I reread your post and I still don't see how that's how you meant it but that's fine. You ignored the part of my post that addressed the topic of crate-trainers not trusting their dogs (which, by the way, is an extremely condescending assumption).
How's this for condescending...?

I've read an awful lot on this forum - give treats is the ultimate.

Flooding a 6 or 7 week old puppy with food or treats is the wrong thing to do, when they have a consistent supply of food throughout the day, there is no possible way to set a schedule. The dog can't possibly control bodily functions that way...

But, the owner gets flustered, puppy ends up in a crate - the dog is blamed. And round and round and round we go.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
439 Posts
How's this for condescending...?

I've read an awful lot on this forum - give treats is the ultimate.

Flooding a 6 or 7 week old puppy with food or treats is the wrong thing to do, when they have a consistent supply of food throughout the day, there is no possible way to set a schedule. The dog can't possibly control bodily functions that way...

But, the owner gets flustered, puppy ends up in a crate - the dog is blamed. And round and round and round we go.
That is completely off-topic. There is a completely different thread where you've debated that to death. I am not responding again unless you actually address the answers to these so-called questions you're asking. The only "round and round" I'm seeing is this destructive pattern of redirecting every time someone responds to something you've brought up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PipsMom
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
Top