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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
*This is my first post. I didn't know about time limit when editing, so I have created duplicate postings- I apologize and have learned my lesson.

My dog (Maxwell) came from a farm. The farmer (Mark) owns 2 Treeing Walker Coonhounds (TWC) for hunting, a team of 3 Redbones (RBs) for protecting livestock from coyotes & bears, and an English Fox Lab as a pet (referenced in images). All of the dogs are registered purebreds- their "jobs" are important to the farmer.

I was told that my dog was a TWC- Lab Mix. As he got older, I started seeing all coonhound behavior, very high energy, high metabolism, prey-drive, stubbornness, "very creative interpretation of commands" and height. At 6 mo. he pulled me down our front steps- I let go of the leash and next thing I knew the cat next door was "treed" and jumped on top of the roof of their house and my dog was baying. (I promise I did not teach him to put cats on their roof and bark like crazy). I called Mark and asked if my dog may have a Redbone dad. He said sure could be and it makes sense because one of the puppies was returned because the owners couldn't keep it in a small city apartment because of energy requirements and prey drive.

He sent me the pic posted of the 8 mo. sibling that was returned and said she was super sweet and worked well with his Redbones - so now he's happy to have 4 great dogs protecting his livestock. He mentioned if I had any concerns about having a TWC-Redbone mix because of any reason to please return Max to him because he is so impressed with the sibling and could find a great home (even if not on his farm). To me, this suggests a certain behavior and genetic similarity to the group of RBs.

The issue is both TWC coloring is possible with either the Fox Lab or the RB because both have small white patches on chests which means they have a single PieBald gene (I think this means- 25% chance of expressing the white on the bottom- with a dilution of black to brown or solid black or red color spots), 50% chance of having only dilution of black- like Max and 25% solid red- solid red cancels out the dilution). Note: I realize these percentages are meaningless if there are 2 sires

I am really motivated to figure this out without a DNA test because I think there are enough known variables to do it and it is a great puzzle... mainly, I don't trust the DNA test, especially with coonhound crosses. People think it is the absolute truth, but they don't recognize that these tests are not approved for diagnostic purposes (for breeders or health conditions) and vets order expensive and approved tests that have been tested and are accurate. IMO this is akin to seeking alternative medicine instead of a prescription - they might work, but haven't been through rigorous testing. I developed genetic testing for biological markers for 15 years... so, this is more than just an opinion... yet, I am not a doggie geneticist nor have a researched these DNA tests extensively.

Coat color characteristics- number of puppies(n) in the litter of 9 (%):
Piebald (sp/sp) black or red and white - n=3 (33%): (piebald red- n=1, piebald black-n=2)
Piebald (sp/sp + dilution modifier) - n=1 (11%)
Solid black or red with small areas of white (S/sp) - n=3 (33%): (red- n=2, black-n=1)
"Solid" (S/sp) + dilution modifier- black back with red elsewhere - n=2 (22%)

I feel like my dog could only be a TWC- RB mix, but I am not exactly experienced with coonhounds and have learned a lot recently. And I have the propensity to focus on the coonhound behavior because it is so different from the last dog I had who was a female Catahoula Katrina Rescue. She actually listened, followed commands reliably and was not as aloof, she was extremely loyal and protective. I love having a coonhound - but would love to know how much of a coonhound I have. I imagine some of the behavior may be just puppy stuff as well... if anyone has additional feedback or ideas.. or knows more about genetics and can tell by seeing the images of the litter and my dog.. .. I'm very eager to hear from you. Thank you if you've read this far, even if you have no ideas for me.

Images are shown as follows:
1-4
My dog, Maxwell (now 9 mo., photos 7+)
5- Litter when we got our dog (8.5 weeks)
6-8 Missing puppies not in #5 (8.5 wks)
9- Sibling who was returned, 8 mo.
10- English Fox Lab for reference -web image (the dog thought to be the dad at the time is nearly identical with a tad more white on the chest)
Dog Carnivore Dog breed Liver Working animal
Dog Dog breed Carnivore Collar Liver
Dog Carnivore Collar Working animal Companion dog
Water Sky Dog People in nature Carnivore
Dog Cabinetry Comfort Dog breed Ear
Dog Carnivore Sleeve Dog breed Companion dog

Dog Dog breed Carnivore Fawn Companion dog

Dog Carnivore Dog breed Companion dog Fawn
Dog Plant Dog breed Tree Carnivore
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
I realize my expected percentage calculations may be totally off because I don't know how the dilution works with red and black coat color and the heterozygous piebald gene (S/sp). Because 4 of 9 puppies are sp/sp (1 sp/sp with dilution modifier, 3 with solid piebald markings), 3 of 9 are solid puppies (2 red, 1 black) and 2 of 9 are red and black w/ dilution.

When we only look at the coat color there are 3 red (2 solid and 1 Piebald), 3 black (2 piebald, 1 solid) and 3 dilutions (1 white piebald black dilution, 2 red w/ black dilution)

All of this (and the above) to ask, "is my dog half Lab or half Redbone or did some neighbor's dog get into the kennel?". I started looking at coat color because I thought that there was something distinct about the inheritance of Lab vs.Redbone coat color- is there? I am looking for some type of genetic marker that will tell me this. I think Lab mixes can have piebald offspring, but would you see the dilution expressed like a Walker (Foxhound-type) coat? And because the puppies are clearly red and black (as seen with older ones) does this mix up things?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I am making progress on this... I think it is all about learning the correct terms because you can't associate meaning with made-up stuff. LOL

I have identified that my dog has a "Creeping Tan Pattern" because his coat is more red than tan, and extends over his head and further up his legs. Also, the
black receded as he grew (see photos).

You would only see a saddle or a creeping saddle on a dog that has a "Permissive Black" coat- such as a TWC - the gene is homozygous recessive.

Fox Lab coat - The red comes from 2 solid homozygous recessive y/y (yellow) coat genes. These are derived from what is called a "Dominant Black" - creating solid coats of different colors.

Walker-Fox Lab mating would produce ALL SOLID puppies with small amounts of white on feet and chest. Puppies would only be Black and Brown

Redbone coat - Red coat comes from the combination of a homozygous recessive (e/e) with or without "unknown factor white" or something similar to the Piebald gene where interactions with background coat color alter expression. In Redbone - you may see small bits of white on a solid red coat.

A Redbone (e/e +) mating with a Walker with "permissive black" would likely produce a litter of pups with the characteristics of Max's litter... I am not sure how to calculate the percentages because I don't know how the Piebald with modifier is different from the Piebald.. I think you could expect 50% to be Piebald with or without modifiers. And the other 50% to be solid with small bits of white.


Dog Carnivore Ear Dog breed Scent hound
Dog Dog breed Carnivore Collar Dog supply
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank you. I actually found that reference previously and noticed many of the articles on the same website are great. I think I'm getting close to my answer, but I have questions:

1. Maxwell must be E/e because eumelanin is present in his coat, but how is his body red when phaeomelanin is separate and coded by e/e?

- The only thing I can guess is removing black pigment results in red - but Walkers have brown.

* You said you don't see Lab in Max... I agree and still want to know definitively. Plus, I enjoy learning these things.

Sometimes I see Max run full bore and turn on a dime with his shoulder near the ground and he never misses a step (see photo) and I think- that is my definitive thing. But then I see labs who are incredibly fast with different ways of navigating. So, here I am still looking for something definitive.

Dog Dog breed Carnivore Working animal Fawn
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I think these 2 solid puppies, pictured below, belong to the Lab. The ears are shorter and the overall face/head just looks different enough to say, but I have no other rationale.
Dog Dog breed Carnivore Liver Companion dog
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Agreed. I feel resolved. Thank you for your help.

One additional confirmation is just yesterday, YouTube prompted me with a video update of a 1 year old litter of coonhound-coonhounds. I'm pretty sure they are Walker-Redbones (they are said to be from a particular breeder with the details of the cross omitted, however- they hunt bear and its well known that for this purpose people desire a dog with "the noise of a Walker with the grit and tracking ability of a Redbone". The litter composition has a red-piebald, 2 with Walker coloring and a few like the one pictured here... He looks almost exactly like my dog (and his sister and the rest in the video do as well). One of the main reasons I was hesitant to think that Max resulted from both purebred Walker-Redbone is his ears are not as long as either... But the dog has the same ears - the same everything in fact. Here is a screenshot of the dog in the video, followed by my dog. I think you will agree that the resemblance is striking.

Dog Carnivore Dog breed Fawn Cap
Dog Collar Carnivore Dog breed Companion dog
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Sorry- I hate that you can only edit posts 1 time... I said "noise" of a Walker, but I met NOSE...People prefer the NOSE of a Walker because of all the coonhounds they are the only with the ability to accurately distinguish a new trail from an old one. As you can imagine this is a serious advantage.
 
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