Coonhound- Mix Breed Identification: Walker-English Fox Lab OR Walker-Redbone (includes litter details and some genetic background)

I realize my expected percentage calculations may be totally off because I don't know how the dilution works with red and black coat color and the heterozygous piebald gene (S/sp). Because 4 of 9 puppies are sp/sp (1 sp/sp with dilution modifier, 3 with solid piebald markings), 3 of 9 are solid puppies (2 red, 1 black) and 2 of 9 are red and black w/ dilution.

When we only look at the coat color there are 3 red (2 solid and 1 Piebald), 3 black (2 piebald, 1 solid) and 3 dilutions (1 white piebald black dilution, 2 red w/ black dilution)

All of this (and the above) to ask, "is my dog half Lab or half Redbone or did some neighbor's dog get into the kennel?". I started looking at coat color because I thought that there was something distinct about the inheritance of Lab vs.Redbone coat color- is there? I am looking for some type of genetic marker that will tell me this. I think Lab mixes can have piebald offspring, but would you see the dilution expressed like a Walker (Foxhound-type) coat? And because the puppies are clearly red and black (as seen with older ones) does this mix up things?

I am making progress on this... I think it is all about learning the correct terms because you can't associate meaning with made-up stuff. LOL

I have identified that my dog has a "Creeping Tan Pattern" because his coat is more red than tan, and extends over his head and further up his legs. Also, the
black receded as he grew (see photos).

You would only see a saddle or a creeping saddle on a dog that has a "Permissive Black" coat- such as a TWC - the gene is homozygous recessive.

Fox Lab coat - The red comes from 2 solid homozygous recessive y/y (yellow) coat genes. These are derived from what is called a "Dominant Black" - creating solid coats of different colors.

Walker-Fox Lab mating would produce ALL SOLID puppies with small amounts of white on feet and chest. Puppies would only be Black and Brown

Redbone coat - Red coat comes from the combination of a homozygous recessive (e/e) with or without "unknown factor white" or something similar to the Piebald gene where interactions with background coat color alter expression. In Redbone - you may see small bits of white on a solid red coat.

A Redbone (e/e +) mating with a Walker with "permissive black" would likely produce a litter of pups with the characteristics of Max's litter... I am not sure how to calculate the percentages because I don't know how the Piebald with modifier is different from the Piebald.. I think you could expect 50% to be Piebald with or without modifiers. And the other 50% to be solid with small bits of white.

Thank you. I actually found that reference previously and noticed many of the articles on the same website are great. I think I'm getting close to my answer, but I have questions:

1. Maxwell must be E/e because eumelanin is present in his coat, but how is his body red when phaeomelanin is separate and coded by e/e?

- The only thing I can guess is removing black pigment results in red - but Walkers have brown.

* You said you don't see Lab in Max... I agree and still want to know definitively. Plus, I enjoy learning these things.

Sometimes I see Max run full bore and turn on a dime with his shoulder near the ground and he never misses a step (see photo) and I think- that is my definitive thing. But then I see labs who are incredibly fast with different ways of navigating. So, here I am still looking for something definitive.

I think these 2 solid puppies, pictured below, belong to the Lab. The ears are shorter and the overall face/head just looks different enough to say, but I have no other rationale.

Agreed. I feel resolved. Thank you for your help.

One additional confirmation is just yesterday, YouTube prompted me with a video update of a 1 year old litter of coonhound-coonhounds. I'm pretty sure they are Walker-Redbones (they are said to be from a particular breeder with the details of the cross omitted, however- they hunt bear and its well known that for this purpose people desire a dog with "the noise of a Walker with the grit and tracking ability of a Redbone". The litter composition has a red-piebald, 2 with Walker coloring and a few like the one pictured here... He looks almost exactly like my dog (and his sister and the rest in the video do as well). One of the main reasons I was hesitant to think that Max resulted from both purebred Walker-Redbone is his ears are not as long as either... But the dog has the same ears - the same everything in fact. Here is a screenshot of the dog in the video, followed by my dog. I think you will agree that the resemblance is striking.

DogRun said:

Sorry to hijack your thread -I’d be interested to hear more about this, I’m a trailing nerd! I always thought telling new and old trails apart came naturally to most dogs, it’s sticking to the right (often older) one that can be quite a training challenge for some dogs. But I know nothing about coonhounds, and I’d love to learn more about their nose, style and how they work.

Click to expand...

Admittedly, I don't know much at all. I just became interested when I noticed that nearly, many times all, coonhounds who scores at the top 26 or so in the large competitions (UKC, AKC, Autumn Oaks, etc.) are Treeing Walkers. Not only that, but they always provide the genetic lines of the top dogs. And frozen sperm is at a premium for the very elite – so, somehow the dogs are evolving to become better suited for tracking racoons.. just a logical observation.

Meanwhile, other dogs like Redbones seem better able to “work” on farms to protect livestock from coyotes and bears, etc. Just what I see and I don’t follow what the Blueticks, English and Black and Tans are able to do, but I think it might just be that hunters have a preference of which dogs they like to work with because they aren’t as concerned as much about “winning” and prefer different qualities that might not tree as fast.

The AKC has stated a few times (in different places) that Treeing Walkers are the only COONHOUNDS (other breeds are “hot nosed”, just not other coonhounds). I think this means they can distinguish a new trail vs an older one.

A bit about racoons… They are predictable in how they travel. They move along the same trail unless they’re feeding or seeking water.



(The next bit I am inferring and again, it is just a theory, completely unsupported by science – just logic).

Because Treeing Walkers are said to be the only “hot-nosed” of the coonhounds, theoretically, they can pick up a fresh trail and distinguish it by one that is older and perhaps only used by one when they fed a day ago or whenever. The goal would be to force a racoon from its path and up a tree and the chances of doing that are greater along the path every racoon is moving. Who knows, maybe some dogs are also capable of deducing how many racoons are in the area because they all use the same “safe” trail. And maybe even other patterns (who knows, humans are limited).

In a recent interview on Youtube with the “winningest coonhound of all time” named Half-Time Ruby, her owner said she did not start winning until she was 8 years old, which is very late compared to most others who peak 3-5 years (there abouts)… When her owner and handler was asked what set her apart, he said she will pick up a trail that others leave alone, and if not the only, one of few dogs who is well known to tree a coon, holds it in the tree, judges validate, etc., and then she is even more likely to tree the next one and her speed between racoons increases as the hunt progresses. He said she’s always been this way to an extent, but she seems to get better with experience and somehow that more than makes up for her lack of speed and endurance due to age.

I just think it makes sense that she has a hot-nose and maybe has learned that all she needs to do is find the trail that is heavily traveled and push a racoon off the trail, tree it, go back to the same trail and repeat.

Does that make logical sense to you? Someone may have already observed this… to be clear, Ruby’s handler did not point the reason she can do this- I am just saying given the traveling patterns of racoons, Ruby’s age and ability to tree the next racoon faster than the first, while the other dogs seem to avoid the type of trail she has picked up and seems to gravitate towards (he also said she was slower to tree the first and then just boom one right after the other. And the margin she was winning by seemed remarkable.

I've never hunted before in my life, not anything, and just happen to accidentally, against my better judgment, fall in love with a coonhound. LOL...you kinda have to know how affectionate, sensitive, stubborn, independent and passionate they are about life.

If I had to sum up the coonhound perspective on life it would be "Count on me! I'm eager to do anything to please you except when you ask me to follow commands when I'm busy.. Or if I don't see the purpose. I will Iearn super fast and.. Then, I won't even take a piece of cheese for whatever you are asking if your purpose is unclear to me. I am no dumby. My nose makes me do crazy things and you might have to fight me on this for a lifetime, humans are very stubborn. They never understand that I am perfectly capable of finding my way home".



On Thu, Dec 1, 2022, 3:24 PM Christina Dore <[email protected]> wrote:
This might be just something I pulled out of nowhere, but something is going on with Ruby...if you look at her record, she didn't just win.. it is he really had something none of the other dogs did. And given her age and the fact she appeared to improve over time, there is a learning element.. not just a nose or "other" ability

On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 3:16 PM Christina Dore <[email protected]> wrote:
Admittedly, I don't know much at all. And this may not even be what you are getting at, but I would like to bounce ideas off because I'm nerdy too.

I just became interested when I noticed that nearly, if not all, coonhounds who scores at the top 26 or so in the large competitions (UKC, AKC, Autumn Oaks, etc.) are Treeing Walkers. Not only that, but they always provide the genetic lines of the top dogs. And frozen sperm is at a premium for the very elite – so, somehow the dogs are evolving to become better suited for tracking racoons.. just a logical observation. Meanwhile, other dogs like Redbones seem better able to “work” on farms to protect livestock from coyotes and bears, etc. I don’t follow what the Blueticks, English and Black and Tans are able to do, but I think it might just be that hunters have a preference of which dogs they like to work with because they aren’t as concerned at “winning”.

The AKC has stated a few times (in different places) that Treeing Walkers are the only COONHOUNDS (other breeds are “hot nosed”, just not other coonhounds).

A bit about racoons… They are predictable in how they travel. They move along the same trail unless they’re feeding or seeking water. (The next bit I am inferring and again, it is just a theory, completely unsupported by science – just logic). Because Treeing Walkers are said to be the only “hot-nosed” of the coonhounds, theoretically, they can pick up a fresh trail and distinguish it by one that is older and perhaps only used by one when they fed a day ago. The goal would be to force a racoon from this path and up a tree and the chances of doing that are greater along the path every racoon is moving. This would also suggest (maybe) that Treeing Walkers are also capable of deducing how many racoons are in the area because they all use the same “safe” trail. And maybe even other patterns (who knows, humans are limited).

In a recent interview on Youtube with the “winningest coonhound of all time” named Half-Time Ruby, her owner said she did not start winning until she was 8 years old, which is very late compared to males that peak 3-5 years (there abouts)… When her owner and handler was asked what set her apart, he said she is the only dog he’s known to tree a coon and after she holds it on the tree, judges validate, etc., she is even more likely to tree the next one and her speed between racoons increases as the hunt progresses. He said she’s always been this way to an extent, but she seems to get better with experience and somehow that more than makes up for her lack of speed and endurance due to her age.

I just think it makes sense that she has the hot-nose and maybe has learned that all she needs to do is find the trail that is heavily traveled and push a racoon off the trail, tree it, go back to the same trail and repeat.

Does that make logical sense to you? Someone may have already observed this… to be clear, Ruby’s handler did not point this out- I am just saying given the traveling patterns of racoons, Ruby’s age and ability to tree the next racoon faster than the first (he also said she was slower to tree the first and then just boom one right after the other, sometimes catching 8+ in the 2 hour competition hunt.

DogRun said:

Sorry to hijack your thread -I’d be interested to hear more about this, I’m a trailing nerd! I always thought telling new and old trails apart came naturally to most dogs, it’s sticking to the right (often older) one that can be quite a training challenge for some dogs. But I know nothing about coonhounds, and I’d love to learn more about their nose, style and how they work.

Click to expand...

DogRun said:

Sorry to hijack your thread -I’d be interested to hear more about this, I’m a trailing nerd! I always thought telling new and old trails apart came naturally to most dogs, it’s sticking to the right (often older) one that can be quite a training challenge for some dogs. But I know nothing about coonhounds, and I’d love to learn more about their nose, style and how they work.

Click to expand...

DogRun said:

Sorry to hijack your thread -I’d be interested to hear more about this, I’m a trailing nerd! I always thought telling new and old trails apart came naturally to most dogs, it’s sticking to the right (often older) one that can be quite a training challenge for some dogs. But I know nothing about coonhounds, and I’d love to learn more about their nose, style and how they work.

Click to expand...

I am not sure that I know the actual difference between tracking and trailing, so forgive me if I use the terms incorrectly. I thought of a few other things that may be less theoretical and a better place to start depending on your interests. All of it is interesting to me.... luckily I type as fast as I talk.

Clarification:

I tried to find the AKC reference for "only hot-nosed" and I know I read it because I re-re-read as it is hard to believe.. but while looking for it I think the consensus is they have the "most hot-nose of the breeds... and I am saying this without really understanding the concept entirely... but I guess that is the purpose of a discussion.

General observations:

My observations are based on my own dog(s), my previous dog was a Catahoula Leopard Dog and of course my current "coonhound "x"- (note: both UKC and AKC name the dogs who enter competition hunts who are off-spring of a mix of 2 or more coonhound breed crosses, "x-breed" like the letter, not cross, they also include purebred coonhounds in this category when their ancestry cannot be traced as far back as the restrictions require). I am including my Catahoula because I have no other first-hand comparator and they are versatile dogs. It might be interesting to note that a popular video by a Catahoula breeder on Youtube said that Catahoulas are the only dogs that simultaneously track air and ground scent (but I don't understand how that claim works).

I got them both around 8 weeks and they were/are just pets and never trained to track. The instincts I observed may or may not be generalizable, but the differences are striking. And only obvious to me when I had my coonhound to compare. When my Catahoula caught a scent, she'd move at a gallop or maybe a fast walk-run and she mostly had her head up and would sniff the ground as if to reference (I imagine), but it actually was not that apparent that she was trailing something, except that she was focused and motivated ... Now, if she caught sight of whatever she was tracking it was full speed ahead and I always got the idea that she was looking for the thing she was smelling- all of these things seem to be exactly the opposite my coonhound.

My now, 9-month-old coonhound appears to become possessed when he catches a scent. He will look like he's just doing dog stuff and suddenly out of nowhere bolt off at an incredible speed with his nose toward the ground forward but it appears a bit effortless - not like the nose to the ground- type of thing, it is more the type of run where he is leaping over anything in the way and dodging stuff and turning sharply and (gasp, there are only 2 ways that I know to stop this- the first a leash (ONLY if something much greater than my 5'3" smallish female frame is anchoring it) because my dog will throw his weight like a bucking horse and not care if he chokes himself- because he isn't thinking at that point - I am not even sure if he is aware that he is choking (I'm serious) ... he's taken me down a few times- once to put a cat on the roof of a house at 6.5 months and another phantom smell. The second way and hunters will agree is the use of a tool that understandably cannot be named on the forum and you will observe it on the dog's necks during a competition in combination with GPS devices, I suppose another way is an enclosure - but even then, the prey-drive is high, they are intelligent and stubborn and determined... and that will work until they figure a way out one time and you're out the cost of your fence for nothing (plus they will dig).

Coonhounds hunt independently, which probably contributes to this independence where they just do what they want compared to other breeds... I read on a forum and heard announcers during the large coon hunts say that the dogs can track an average of 8-10 miles an hour through thick brush, trees, creek beds, etc. And up to 20 miles per hour. The average miles they run during the 2-hour competition hunt is something like 15+ miles, the elite coonhounds more. Remember this is while tracking the raccoons and having to hold them on the tree for the required 8 minutes that allow judges to validate the raccoon, check for dens which are negative points and allow the other 3 hounds that are competing to follow the same trail if they are already on it -points are assigned accordingly. Winning dogs can tree 4+ during the time, which theoretically means they are running about 10 miles per hour while tracking through the woods in the pitch darkness.

I've watched a squirrel move around in a path and then my dog will follow the same at an incredible speed and end up treeing the squirrel. .. BUT the other day, I watched him about 5-10 feet from the actual squirrel while the trail was looping around and he had absolutely no clue that he was looping around the squirrel... he doesn't always do this and maybe I misinterpreted what he was doing... but he did put it up the tree fairly quickly, but my Catahoula would have already eaten it for lunch because she would have smelled and seen it. It was very strange to me until I realized they hunt in complete darkness and I have no idea if there was a strategy to treeing that squirrel, to me it just looked like he was so focused on following the scent that he just wasn't aware... and much of the time that's what I think is going on. They are incredibly focused and it can't happen fast enough for them.

Another thing I find interesting and opposite in my dogs is my Catahoula had what are called, "cracked" eyes, brown with pie wedges of clear blue. Dogs with blue eyes do not have what is called a reflective tapetum lucidum and their eyes will appear red in photographs (like humans but moreso) and their night vision is only better than humans because of the large size of a dog's pupil, however... the first time I went outside with a headlamp and saw my coonhounds eyes at night - it was similar to driving down the road and seeing headlights in the distance. It scared me because I wasn't used to it and their eyes really do light up like flash lights if light is availabe for reflection. If the reflection is an indication of the quality of their night vision (which I believe it is)... it is pretty amazing. (see photo) Note: the photo is a screenshot of a video and it was almost impossible to capture and still doesn't do it justice. Not at all..you don't see the actual light.. just looks like white dots. .. but in person, flashlights.

Maybe some of this "book" is useful. I hope so. I enjoy writing and learning about this, so... it is great to share.

Thank you for taking the time to research and elaborate. I went down the rabbit hole of reading all about cold nosed and hot nosed dogs last night as well. Fascinating. It sounds a little bit similar to differences between air scenting dogs and mantrailing dogs in search and rescue, just in a different context.

From my experience, almost all dogs can distinguish -or learn to distinguish- between old and fresh trails, most can learn to follow a specific scent (trail/track), and most can learn to air scent the target odor. It does take a special dog to successfully work a very old trail though! But in general, left to their own devices, most dogs will also naturally switch between following the ground scent (track/trail) and air scenting, like your Catahoula- but yes, of course some breeds and individuals can have a strong preference towards one or the other. You can really see that in mantrailing (my biggest passion), where you allow and encourage each dog to work as naturally as possible to get the job done. Sounds like this is what hunters discussing advantages of “cold and hot” noses in online forums are trying to do - find the dog with the most compatible natural style, that works best for them personally.

When it comes to recall and preventing wildlife chasing, I don’t want to add more fuel to the fire, but I think people tend to underestimate the power of an excellent, really well trained recall, paired with a strong bond between dog and handler. In my circles, good hunting dogs are absolutely expected (and considered capable) to be able to control their impulses and have reliable recalls completely “naked”, including scenthounds. They were bred to be independent thinkers, but not to be unruly - they were also bred to understand how to be a team with a human.

But I don’t want to moralize. I used to be in a similar situation with a young, super high prey drive dog that desperately needed off leash time for his own sanity as well as mine. I understand the worry and frustration. I decided to go the recall training route and got so, so much out of it.

I wonder if you might enjoy some structured scent work with your young rascal? Working on something as a team is so cool, and dogs’ noses in action are absolutely amazing.