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Discussion Starter #1
This is gonna be long, bear with me here.

Ok I am lost. I was training Harvick and tried to teach him spin for 2 reasons. 1. because nobody else will do it but they will free shape and Harvick wont free shape but is smart enough to get it
2. He has some weird issue with his rear end and thought this may help with that (he SOMETIMES growls when you touch his butt)

So we are doing it and no issues, then suddenly he starts staring at my hand and lip licking so I stop ask him to sit, down, sit, stand then I touch his butt, he growls, no teeth bearing just growls (this happens mainly when its dark and in the bedroom, never before outside of the bedroom). At this point he is just too over threshold so I dont bother pushing towards giving treats while touching his butt at this point. I ask him to sit, down, sit, stand, shake, and try another spin which he does. So then I do the feeding treats while clicking and touching his butt, he randomly growls and thats it, over, done, treats go away and we stop and go outside. At one point before he growled so bad I stood up suddenly and he bared his teeth, I freaked out and hollared (I know I know I shouldnt have) and he ran and hid by the door wanting out.

So...I call the bf and tell him we need to get him to the vet to see if he has HD or some anal gland issue because I just cant think of anything else that it could be. THEN as I am sitting at the couch petting him watching tv he moves so my hands are on his hips/top of the tail area and I rub gently then scratch playfully and he "dances". So wth is it? Does it hurt or not?! Is this some weird side effect from him getting raped at the dog park (yes no joke this incident with an unaltered male husky is what led to his over the top dog reactive issues, he was NEVER like this until that dumb dog jumped on him).

Come to think of it he did at one point have some muscle issue we think b/c he would lift his leg to get up on the couch and whimper or cry but then not do it the next time and was fine at the vet when we took him in to be checked out (well as good as can be behavior wise) and it was on and off but has not happened in such a long time....not sure if its related or not.

Any thoughts? Ideas? I am thinking of still taking him to the vet to have xrays done, now heres a silly question tho, do xrays show muscle issues? I think I remember they do but I could be a bit dusty in that area.
 

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I hate stuff like that, its like "does it hurt or not/?????" Emma is the worst, she'll yelp like shes hurt som'thing, but when you feel her over she wont yelp...frustrating...

well, if its muscular, basically they'd give him pain meds, and if thats the problem you should be able to touch him just fine while hes on the meds...

maybe its a context thing...like he doesn't like it only when hes standing or som'thing...

are you using kibble? a neat-o step to the counterconditioning, you can reach for him, throw the kibble at the spot, and click as it hits...sounds silly I know...but that technique is also used in proofing...it helps the dog get used to objects or hands or whatever, coming at them



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yeah literally drop kibble on him and click as they hit, eventually moving your hand closer...


told you it sounded dumb


Critter and I are working on this right now (but with feet) she will actually bite you if you restrain them for more than a second...now, after about a week, I can grab them and fiddle with the nails...But touching her with food was a big part of it. The idea of the food traveling toward them, and they know it is, vs a mark and then a moment and the food delivered from the other hand...

this way...it builds value of the hand you are eventually going to touch him with


lemme see if I can dig up an article on value transfer



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Discussion Starter #5
yeah literally drop kibble on him and click as they hit, eventually moving your hand closer...
Ok so I should start by holding my hand by his head and tossing the treats to his butt and click as they hit and move my hand closer but keep the treats hitting his rear the whole time?

told you it sounded dumb
No just making sure you meant to throw the kibble at him LOL


Critter and I are working on this right now (but with feet) she will actually bite you if you restrain them for more than a second
Same with Glacier, I am working on touch, flash, treat, touch a little longer, flash, treat. Its taking forever! I will try touching him with the kibble too.
The idea of the food traveling toward them, vs a mark and then a moment and the food delivered from the other hand
Could me holding treats in one hand and touching and clicking with the other be causing more anxiety?

this way...it builds value of the hand you are eventually going to touch him with
Makes sense.

lemme see if I can dig up an article on value transfer
Please :)
 

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Could me holding treats in one hand and touching and clicking with the other be causing more anxiety?

maybe, probably not tho, I just think he may not be understanding what you are communicating to him. Som' dogs take a while to "get" markers, even after they act like they understand them...he may not understand yet that HIS behavior CAUSES the click...

well, lemme explain it differently....


For example, when you throw it at him... the dog is going to anticipate the treat coming from the reaching hand....that excitement/anticipation is HAPPINESS. So you get a free emotional ride in a sense...hes too busy being happy about the food to freak out so much.....VS the other way, where you would reach, then mark, then pull away, then feed...with that scenario, he is feeling anxiety as you reach, because he thinks that hand is going to maybe touch him.

does that make sense?

For example, hand targeting...the hand itself build value to the dog because thats the hand you reward from...you would say touch...the dog touches, than then you click, and then you put the treat in the hand he just touched and feed from that hand...

so click for behavior (not freaking out while you reach for him) and reward for position (him standing there with the hand over him) if you mark, pull back and then reward, you are rewarding him while you are pulled away...if that makes sense...you want to place the reward in a place that communicates your goal... I really feel like I need visual aids now....

in the early steps with Tippy, I'd just click...and throw food AT HER and walk away...lol



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Discussion Starter #7
LOL makes a lot of sense. I actually tried giving him treats while simultaneously touching him but that did not work well. I will try this for a few weeks, problem is he only sometimes freaks out. Maybe he will just never freak out if I start slow with him and always use this method when training. I think he may have mental issues, his eyes get bulgy and he seems a bit overwhelmed but excited sometimes and stops listening. :( poor dog got such horrible genes
 

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ok. I just touched and tried to treat but he was lip licking. Is it ok to start treating him while lip licking as long as he is not growling? No is the answer right because I want him in a calm state of mind before I go praising him?
 

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yeah, sounds like its just progressing too fast for him...I'd do several sessions where you just practice him being comfortable with you reaching at him...the second you see stress, just back up distance...

it doesn't hurt to reward when hes stressing, its just not optimal since hes focusing more on freaking out than learning...if that makes sense...

have you seen my Tippy vid were I hit her with all sorts of objects? There were many sessions where I just showed her the objects, or moved them around and C/T for them simply existing


basically, you can't go too slow with this...but its easy to go to fast :) :) :)



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Discussion Starter #11
Yea I have seen that video. Poor Tippy :( LOL jk Thanks so much Crio!!!! I will definitely try and I dont think I will C/T (nice short cut btw!) when he starts to show signs of fear or anxiety as I do not want to reward any of this since he is so crazy. I will start tomorrow and make sure I do not touch him in the situations where he normally growls just to see if he is ok or not
 
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