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Discussion Starter #1
have any of you co owned a dog? specifically a male? i'm thinking about pitching this idea to a breeder.

wanted to see your thoughts on it and if any of you have, what were/are your contracts like?

Nothing is certain whatsoever. Just trying to gauge what it's like
 

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I'm going to assume you mean co-owning a stud dog... and in that case I would have to say no. I'm not sure how arrangements like that work. Also I would say the arrangement probably depends on who is the main owner and who the dog lives with.
 

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This is all theoretical. It would be with the breeder who owns the puppy. I purchase a dog from them at a discounted price and in return a contract is formulated in order for them to use the dog as a stud/breeding/show purposes. Google can explain better than I can (if I had a computer I would be more descriptive.)
The Pros and Cons of Co-ownership | Cryslen Welsh Springer Spaniels
 

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My sister co-owned an English Bulldog bitch for a while. She hated it. She says it really doesn't feel like the dog is yours, and the breeder takes the dog whenever she wants to breed it, so she's gone for months at a time.
Now, maybe it would be different with a stud, since his job is arguably the easier one. Personally, I wouldn't do it. I don't really enjoy someone else having a say in what I want to do with my dog. Also, owning an intact dog is not for everyone. :p
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Personally I would try working it out to where if the dog was titled or bred so many times it could be signed over to me, ending the contract. Also, with a stud I could get semen frozen and shipped rather than having to bring a bitch to get pregnant (I may note this breeder lives a fair distance away, but I am also looking at local breeders. Just this particular one for co-owning.). I currently live with and care for two intact males so I'm not too worried about that.
Did your sister ever get any sort of reimbursement for breeding and litters? What did her contract outline? Most that I've seen have some way where you end up fully owning the dog.
 

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Personally I would try working it out to where if the dog was titled or bred so many times it could be signed over to me, ending the contract. Also, with a stud I could get semen frozen and shipped rather than having to bring a bitch to get pregnant (I may note this breeder lives a fair distance away, but I am also looking at local breeders. Just this particular one for co-owning.). I currently live with and care for two intact males so I'm not too worried about that.
Did your sister ever get any sort of reimbursement for breeding and litters? What did her contract outline? Most that I've seen have some way where you end up fully owning the dog.
Her contract was for three litters I believe, and then the dog would be signed over to her. In the end it didn't matter, because she died from complications during her first pregnancy. From what I gather, the breeder was inexperienced and didn't realize her dog might have needed a C-section. I believe a puppy got stuck, breeder did nothing and mom and pups died.

Now, that has little to do with the actual co-owning part, but I do believe that might be a reason my sister doesn't care much for it.
 

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Her contract was for three litters I believe, and then the dog would be signed over to her. In the end it didn't matter, because she died from complications during her first pregnancy. From what I gather, the breeder was inexperienced and didn't realize her dog might have needed a C-section. I believe a puppy got stuck, breeder did nothing and mom and pups died.

Now, that has little to do with the actual co-owning part, but I do believe that might be a reason my sister doesn't care much for it.
Oh wow, English bulldog? You would've thought they'd known about a C-section. Sorry to hear that! I don't blame her!
I'm honestly mostly interested since it'll be a BC and I am new to that breed. It would be great to have a mentor with a first puppy of this breed. The breeder I believe wants to keep this particular puppy I am thinking of intact for breeding purposes and I think he was already OFA tested, but I'm unsure if he was a prospect to be sold into another home. Someone suggested the idea of purchasing him to me and I had just learned about co-owning and it seemed like a good middle perhaps(as far as breeding prospect goes and titling may motivate me to put him in some sort of sport). Although I would hate for it to get complicated. Which is why I am trying to feel out what the general co-owning experience is like.
 

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Do you have any experience show/titling dogs? And any experience breeding? Is the breeder asking for co-own or are you asking for it? What would be the benefit for each of you to co-own this particular dog? Where do you see yourself going with this dog in the next 5 years? How old is this dog and what were his OFA results? Has he already been trained, shown or titled in any activity? What breed?

I co-own both of my Afghans and it's worked out great for both of us, but most co-ownerships do not work and end up in turning into a terrible mess. I do have some more advice on why I feel co-owning has worked for me when it doesn't work for others, but I'm at work right now and will have to follow up when I have more time.
 

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No experience showing or titling. I have helped rear many litters, mostly oops litters but I also helped rear my mom's Ridgeback bitch's first litter. I am thinking about pitching the idea to the breeder.I might add she is very ill atm and hospitalized and I currently have not spoken to this breeder but I have a friend who is very close with her and s the one who suggested I MIGHT see if I can get this puppy. Probably just brainstorming and throwing this idea around. Said ffiend is an experienced BC owner and has worked with the breeder and is close friends with her to my knowledge. I am thinking I could possibly get a discount on this puppy from some people I generally trust, and at the same time the breeder may allow this puppy to be a sire like the original intention. I would plan on keeping this dog as a pet and dabbling in sports and stuff but I have not participated in any dog sport before (which the mentorship may help with?). He is a few months old by the look of pictures and I am unsure about his results but I believe he was tested and my friend told me he could be used to breed (IF I were to theoretically purchase this dog) He has not to my knowledge. This oupoy has littermate syndrome which i wss told is being worked on,Border collie.

I gave not spoken to either the breeder or the friend about this as I am trying to gather what it's like BEFORE I make a fool of myself in front of one of them and get myself into something I don't want. Or be ignorant on what I am talking about
I feel that with a Co ownership I may be able to attain a dog with the mentorship of this breeder and she may still use him for his original intent for however long.

Sorry if this was confusing I am on my way out the door.
 

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This is something I have started considering doing for my next dog a few years down the line. It is not something I would recommend jumping into, or getting involved in for anything related to a lower cost. If you're thinking that it's a good way to get a discount on a dog or make money back from a stud fee, I would do away with that notion. IMO, if you're going about breeding in a responsible way and involved with a responsible breeder, there will be a lot of cost deduction.

Personally, I would not want to do it with anyone but a breeder I already know well and know I get along with. Really, I think of co-owning as more of a business relationship. Also, I would want to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I agreed with the breeding philosophy of the person I was working with and that we has the same standards for how to decide if a dog should be bred.

I'm also of the opinion that no dog should be bred unless it has proven to have something that needs to be preserved in the next generation of a bloodline. What this means to me will vary based on the breed. For a Border Collie specifically, what this means to a person can vary dramatically. A lot of Border Collie people consider the AKC and those breeding for the AKC conformation ring to be a scourge on the breed. A lot also consider people breeding only for purpose bred sport dogs (usually agility dogs) to be against the best interest of a breed. They think that above all, what makes a border collie a border collie is it's herding instinct and their specific herding style. I would agree with this to a certain extent- so much of the definition of what a BC is is so tied in to what they are bred to do/their herding work. I personally am not a huge fan of the AKC standard because historically physical characteristics have mattered much, much less than the herding instinct and temperament of the dog. Your experience of the breed will likely be fairly different if this is a dog from a working line, from a line bred with herding instinct in mind but used largely for sports, or from a purely conformation line. I am of the somewhat unpopular opinion among BC fanciers that being purpose bred for sport work is also an acceptable goal, so long as the dogs also retain demonstrable herding instinct. I would not want to work with a breeder who believes physical confirmation is equally important as drive/innate herding instinct, physical health, etc. I also probably would not work well with someone who is of the opinion that the only thing worthwhile to breed for is herding drive, because that is not what I would be nurturing in the dog I got. I would probably work very well is a person breeding their dogs mainly for sport/agility but keeping in mind their ability to herd as well.

IMO, in order to really ferret out what a dog has to offer the bloodline, you need to test the boundaries of their mental and physical abilities and the stability and desirability of their temperament. Health testing (like OFA certifications for hips and elbows) is one way to test physical ability. Another is to be actively working the dogs. For example, a lot of true "working line" breeders don't do much/any health testing because their own measure of health is whether or not the dog can participate adequately and perform in a desirable manner doing daily ranch chores moving livestock around. The other way to test these things is in competition against other dogs, in either herding trials or things like agility. I would not want to be getting a dog from a breeder who is using a stud whose only thing going for him is that he is a really fun pet and looks the way they want him to look, no matter how healthy the dog is.

So, all that leads me to my next declaration: I would not enter into co-owning a dog unless the reason I was getting said dog was that I was looking for a competitive sport dog, and the sport was one I was already familiar with. If you are not already involved in some kind of dog sport, at least participating regularly in a club if not actively competing with a dog, then I don't know that a Border Collie would be the best or easiest entrance into competing, or that a breeder would be super thrilled to co-own a dog with you. Being involved in something like herding trials or agility trials involves lessons with a coach in the sport (which cost money) and a LOT of time spent practicing the sport, as well as the money to allow you to practice (whether that be money to get equipment that allow you to practice when you're not with your coach/trainer or money to allow access to the livestock to practice herding skills if you don't already have sheep/ducks/goats/whatever). This is where the slight savings that you're attracted to in the purchase price of the dog/ the money you may or may not get from studding a dog (which will probably be little to nothing) will be lost. Besides the money- Border Collies are not generally recommended as a first dog in agility. I'm very glad that I listened to people's advice and decided to have a Boston Terrier for my first serious competition dog because she's much less sensitive than a BC would be and is able to get over the mistakes I make and especially because I had not realized the cost of having a competition dog and although my main goal is still to trial with her, I don't currently have the money to do anything with a trainer or coach. With her that just means we play on our own, and I know any mistakes I make I can fix quickly with the help of a trainer when I have the money to do so. I would not have that same feeling with a BC- I'd be worried that tiny mistakes would come back to haunt me forever. Most breeders don't want to breed until a dog has been titled highly in something, and they probably wouldn't be sending potential breeding dogs to homes unless they felt confident that that home would be able to channel the promise of the dog properly.

In terms of this specific dog:

How old is this dog? In order to be OFA certified (for hips or elbows) the dog must be at least 24 months of age on the day the x-ways are taken. Dogs over 4 months can have a "preliminary certification", but (IMO and also the option of what I would consider a responsible breeder) this shouldn't be considered adequate to breed. Until a dog has gotten the certification at 24 months, I wouldn't consider them more than a prospect. IMO, if the breed is 100% planning to breed this dog just with a preliminary certification, it is not a breeder I would want to work with.

That leads me to: why does this breeder want to keep this dog intact as a breeding prospect? To me, this would be the biggest thing that decided whether or not this was a breeder that I wanted to work closely with. Consider why you would think a dog made a good breeding prospect- I would want this to match with the breeder's response as closely as possible.

My biggest concern: What do you mean by "the puppy has littermate syndrome"? Littermate syndrome is really just a blanket term to describe problem behaviors that can arise when 2 dogs of the same age are raised together without adequate separation, and can vary from separation anxiety being displayed when separated from the other dog(s) it is bonded to to varying levels of aggression directed either only at the dog it's been raised with or towards all but the dog it's been raised with or towards all dogs.

I don't know how I feel about a breeder having a dog showing behaviors associated with "littermate syndrome". IMO an experienced breeder should know about the dangers of raising 2 dogs close in age together and should be doing everything they can to avoid those issues. I also don't know how I feel about a breeder with a dog that has behavioral problems still wanting to breed said dog.

Finally: I think there are better ways to get to know about a breed and to have a mentor within the breed than co-owning a sire. A good, experienced, responsible breeder will want to educate you on the breed and should, IMO, be open to helping mentor you a little bit.

I've sort of come to the conclusion that co-owning my very first dog of a specific breed is not the best way to become familiar with it, and would be more complicated than I want it to be. That said, I am seriously considering trying to co-own my next Boston Terrier, which is sort of "my breed"- the one I grew up with as a kid and the one I am most interested in getting involved in breeding myself. I have a reason why I want to breed (the AKC standard has lowered the natural stamina and abilities and health of these dogs, and I'd like to work with a breeder and bloodline that are interested in producing pups with less stop/long muzzles and better able to breathe during exercise) and have had 2 Bostons of my own, and consider myself to have a fairly reasonable foundation of knowledge in the breed and it's temperament, variability of energy level, variability of biddability, and general characterstics/history.
 
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