[Mikey]

Sooo I've been meaning to start this thread for a while..

If you don't know who Ceasar is, reach your hand up and push up on the rock and move it to the side of you so you are out from under the rock LOL

Ok soooo basically I've always thought-wow Ceasar=amazing!! And quite honestly I know my taste is a little different but had a little crush on him!! He's soo good with dogs, and so nice...LOL

Soo I've been reading what a few members have said about him 'shutting down' or 'turning off' dogs... and I'm thinking (dangerous i know..)


I get that he's not really a trainer-more of a behaviorist. And like Dr. Phil is a psychologist...really he's doing the intervention-but that's not the end of the story-more work needs to be done etc etc.

BUt yeah I'm watching one of his shows right now and ...I kind of see what you guys mean by shutting down a dog...inhibiting all behaviors...


Soo here's what I'm looking for-your thoughts!!

I think-his take on exercise (do it!!) and treadmills, and backpacks (I've seen him say to someone "Sooo you don't have twenty minutes to walk your dog in the morning so he can be happy?" and YES!! That's awesome-totally agree with him there.

But like..I dunno. Share! I feel like a noob about his methods !

 

[Brittany]

I have always loved Cesar!!! I think it is great to see families that are ready to get rid of or euthanize their dogs and then Cesar comes in and is able to help with the problem. I am not sure what others mean exactly about "turning off" but would be glad to hear. The Dog Whisperer helped me alot when I first got Kelsey. I mean I had never had a dog before and didn't really research it or anything. But Cesar's emphasis on exercise and pack leader really helped. It will be neat to see others take on this.

 

[Criosphynx]

hahah..


you SURE you want me to go there?



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[borzoimom]

hahah..


you SURE you want me to go there?

LOL ... Let me add " are you sure,sure,sure??"

 

[Criosphynx]

hahaha...



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[Mikey]

hahah..


you SURE you want me to go there?

YES !! I think there is a lot to learn

 

[borzoimom]

Uh So should He.... LOL right Criosphynx ?

 

[MySoulmateEmmy]

I don't agree with ALL of his methods or thoughts on training, but I admire him to an extent. he is trying to do a good thing for dogs I think.

~MSE

 

[Criosphynx]

hahah,

I think he has som' good ideas. Holding the owner responsible for their dogs behavior is one. One of his pet peeves is when people blame the breed for whatever the problem is.


he has FANTASTIC timing...it takes years to get that fast, Iam that fast myself, and its ALOT of practice.

he promotes exercise, once again good, but I think way to much of his methods involves exercising a dog to exhastion to suppress behaviors.

He rescues, hes a pit bull advocate....all good good.

but the methods he use work for different reasons than he says....which irritates me. For example the alpha roll works simply because its an aversive, not because "this is what dogs do" (they don't)

taking a dog thats fearful, or fixated, and correcting them until they shut down, obviously is not the best way to go.

I have seem him use PR before, especially on uber shy dogs. But there was one show with a resource guarding dog and his advice was so dangerous I wanted to cry.

hes not evil, but hes not a training god, and hes far far far from the best trainer I've ever seen.

anyway, I watch his show and think how I would handle the dog differently. There was an episode with an E collar where the dog was biting tires, personally I would have gone the same route, but 99% of the time there is a positive method that could have been applied.

I also watch the ENORMOUS amounts of calming signals the dogs give off. Its really sad.


so yeah, thats the jitz



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[borzoimom]

Lets add a few more-
One is his jab he does. In some breeds it would work against you ( sighthounds for example or toys or some herding breeds. ). This would considered an intrustion- not distraction.
His treatment for shy dogs or dogs afraid or defensive aggressive towards a thing or a person is outragious. Its called " flooding" ie to excess.
He says he has control of his dogs when in fact they need too much invention, dependant on too much constant thinking on the owners part. That tells me the dogs are actually not really settled. This is even more evident by the times he has been bit. He obviously does not understand a dog knows also when you are not paying attention, and if they need that attention for control, all they have to do is wait opportunity.
And to elaborate more on the exercise comment- I probably would not fight either if I were exhausted, but that did not teach me anything. And only getting me more and more in condition requiring more and more exercise to reach that " calm submissive level" he calls it- to get to that plane...

 

[root]

I think he's great. Just like in life you can't please everyone all the time. I think all the positive things stated that he does for thousands of dogs out weigh the few things you might do different. I'm sure a "super" trainer could come to anyone of our houses and say....wow...really....why don't you try THIS next time. I don't see his pack as being shut down dogs. And the follow ups I've seen per show the dogs usually are happy and so are the families. Like I said before I don't think there is a perfect way to train or a one way to train. I have seen him change his method in mid method when he sees something in the dog that tells him his first approach wasn't working. I also think I have watched probably every episode of the dog whisperer and I don't think any dog was exercised to complete exhaustion thay all looked to be loving it. Its ok to work out until your tired.......but what do i know I'm a newbie?

 

[Criosphynx]

watch with the sound off.

Iam sorry I believe in proven science over pack mumbo jumbo. He uses aversives...no one is arguing that aversives work. Its at what cost do they work. There are hundreds of trainers rehabing aggressive dogs without harsh aversives. It can be done, and it is being done, just not on tv.

If i tasered you everytime you did som'thing I didn't like, you'd stop too. But if I lost my taser, or I left the room, you'd likely start again.


before I learned about learning theory I though he was awesome too. I didn't see shut down dogs and calming signals. I didn't see how dangerous his advice was, or how exhasted the dogs were.

Now I rewatch old episodes and I cringe. Trust me, those things are there.

To anyone that contests that he is scaring/hurting dogs in suppression or shut down. Here ya go

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

written by a CPDT...som'thing Ceaser is NOT.



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[Criosphynx]

YouTube - Beyond the Red Zone

this is classic ceaser...ANY behaviorist would tell you this is the DUMBEST thing you can do to a dog.

she screaming NO NO NO at a growling/barking dog and Ceasers like "oh thats good" Give me a break.

finally ceaser gives a non nagging correction...this is suppression. The dog still wants to do the behavior. Nothing has changed.



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[borzoimom]

I can not type what I would like too. I think he has set dog training back 100 years or was it woodhouse? I deal in training dogs in my class with aggression all the time, but the owners need a system that is far less complicated as well as one that won't fail if the owner is not vigalant. With the exception of rage, dogs can be aggressive for a reason, and not all fit round peg to round peg. More often than not, his methods are making a round peg fit into a square ( and potentially later dangerious) square hole!

 

[Brittany]

Why do you say it is dangerous? I mean I understand that there are many different training types but why is his dangerous? He seems to have a nice big pack with not too many problems. His method may not work for everyone but I think it works for him. It could work for others too; especially when people learn to combine his methods with other successful methods that work for that owner and dog.

 

[borzoimom]

He is dangerious because he is handling aggression as all one carbon copy " thing". Its not!

 

[Criosphynx]

Why do you say it is dangerous?

you can't fix aggression with aggression. Numerous studies show that "correcting" aggression results in the handler getting attacked.Or the behavior reapearing som'where else. Not all dogs take this crap lying down. In fact I have seen ceaser biten more times than I can remember when a dog refuses to shut down.

I mean I understand that there are many different training types but why is his dangerous?

see above.

He seems to have a nice big pack with not too many problems.

His own show shows clips of his dogs fighting. Also many times when he introduces a dog i see prefight body language from his pack that he has to interupt, often multiple times.

Also there is a concept called flooding that you have seen me refer too. The dogs are flooded so behavior is suppressed. Desire is this there.

His method may not work for everyone but I think it works for him.

then it should stay with him. To many idiots trying to replicate him when his own disclaimer says "DONT TRY THIS AT HOME" no one would have an issue with him if people would stop trying to emulate him

as an owner you have to ask yourself why use a method that is hard on the dog when there are better ways? His methods are like killing an ant with an elephant gun.

It could work for others too; especially when people learn to combine his methods with other successful methods that work for that owner and dog.

You cannot teach timing. Teaching a green person how/when/ how hard/ how often to administer a correction is comparable to teaching a second language IMO. Except when you mispronouce a word you can ruin your dog.

did you read the article I provided? don't take my word for it.

you may also want to review these threads and its links.
http://www.dogforum.com/dog-training/cross-over-training-discussion-2010/


http://www.dogforum.com/dog-training/dominance-dogs-discussion-2044/



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[borzoimom]

THANK YOU CRIOSPHYNX! YOU DO NOT have control as he states with dogs and still have fights! He doesnt have control- what he has is mental control chaos thus occasional revolts ie fights! In other words- he did not " fix" a situation- what he did was put it off!

 

[Criosphynx]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSSHMff4y6Q&NR=1

watch 1:16 and on.... he uses a method called "Choking out" he chokes the dog until it can't fight back anymore..many many many times during this short clip....even when the dog is gasping for breath its still fixated and trying to get at the other dog. When he alpha rolls her she starts lip licking like crazy (stress) Nothing is fixed here. The dogs emotions towards the other dog are now worse because there is now a even greater negative association with other dogs.



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[borzoimom]

YouTube - Cesar's Toughest Cases.m4v

watch 1:16 and on.... he uses a method called "Choking out" he chokes the dog until it can't fight back anymore..many many many times during this short clip....even when the dog is gasping for breath its still fixated and trying to get at the other dog. When he alpha rolls her she starts lip licking like crazy (stress) Nothing is fixed here. The dogs emotions towards the other dog are now worse because there is now a even greater negative association with other dogs.

BINGO!!! EXACTLY MY point!