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Hi! I'm new to the forum and I apologize for just jumping right in, but need some sound advice and don't feel comfortable asking on my usual forums.

Its pretty much exactly what the title states but I'll give a bit of background.

So last September I purchased a dog from a third party (not the breeder) as a working prospect. I was promised papers, but that person then ghosted me and never responded again. After a few months I decided to do my own research and found the dogs breeder, I reached out to them and discovered that technically the dog wasn't even supposed to be sold. There was no written contract, but there was a verbal agreement. Anyway, so I got to know the breeder and they allowed me to keep the dog since I was already working and training him. He offered to get me the papers and straight up said "I won't make you pay any more for him" and was extremely friendly and helpful. He even allowed me on the call with AKC and told me when he got the papers in, asked for my address and said he'd send them.

After a while of not receiving the papers I went head and asked if I had understood him correctly and I was in fact getting the papers, he said yes and I confirmed they had my address. Well time went by and I didn't get the papers, his male (my dogs sire) passed, he got another dog and some other stuff happened so I figured it was just a busy time for him.

Well one night I get a strange message from him that wasn't easy to understand, it was along the lines of 'you can have reg for 1k free and clear' and some other stuff. I honestly was so confused and didn't understand so I responded asking him to explain and he never responded back to me. a few days go by and I sent him pictures of my dog and he goes on like the message never happened and later sends me pictures of his new dog.

At this point I was just confused and hoping maybe the message was a mistake. Well then he calls me and we talk and I tell him about what plans I have and he tells me about the new dog and then says "We'll need to find a place to collect from your dog since he's at his prime" I said okay and then we hung up. I figured "well he can't breed the dog if he's not registered.. so surely he's gonna register him" So I waited about a day and contacted him again and asked AGAIN if he could clarify the terms of his registration and again got no response.

At this point I'm beyond confused, I never asked for full rights but he offered them because HE wanted to breed my dog and I told him that was fine, I'd title and health test him personally ( I was perfectly fine with limited)
I just don't understand why he'd be avoiding responding to my question. You'd think If he wanted money he'd just say so and even weirder that he still messages and calls me acting like nothing has been said or asked in terms of that.

Am I missing something? would there be any reason for him to not want me to have the papers or at least his reg. number?
 

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Do you have any contract at all? Any proof that the dog is yours (or do they have any proof that the dog is theirs)?


If he contacts you again, personally, I would say that you're not comfortable breeding a dog that doesn't have papers. I assume you didn't do health testing on your dog either. Sounds like a really shady breeder to be honest.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
@Petrichor

What breed?

Do you want to breed him? How important are papers to you?

Personally I'd cut and run.
Doberman

I only planned on breeding him after he was fully titled to my liking and health tested. And while I don't TECHNICALLY need the papers to title the dog in my venue, There were a few AKC titles I wanted and it does put a damper on those.
BUT, if it comes down to it, I'll proceed as planned with his training and other titles without papers.

I mostly just wanted to be able to keep a good relationship with the breeder as he has a lot of good resources and contacts that will help me as I continue forward. So it'd be a shame to just cut and run
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Do you have any contract at all? Any proof that the dog is yours (or do they have any proof that the dog is theirs)?


If he contacts you again, personally, I would say that you're not comfortable breeding a dog that doesn't have papers. I assume you didn't do health testing on your dog either. Sounds like a really shady breeder to be honest.
I have neither a contract with him nor a contract with who I original bought him from. He is microchipped under my name and will most likely be tattooed as well (for identification purposes during trials). They don't have proof the dog is theirs, but of course do have proof it came from their litter etc.

My dog is partially health tested (OFA'd, Partial Genetics Panel) but my plan was to get a full panel done and personally had no plans of breeding until he was fully titled.

We don't even live in the same state which is why he has to collect from my guy and I doubt he would do that without him being registered simply because the pedigree is too good to just be thrown out. But I do agree its becoming really shady and I definitely am not going to allow him to use him to breed without getting any papers.

Its just such a strange turnaround in attitude from "let me take care of this for you" to a strange message and silence.

He's only had 1 litter and the dogs were privately placed to working homes with one going to family, he was extremely helpful and even offered me a dog from the next litter he had planned (3 years after the first). So I just don't know why, after all that, suddenly he's decided to change.

My only explanation is that he thinks he can collect from my dog and use the papers himself to register a litter without actually having the dog. But even then I should atleast get a reg. number.

It just doesn't make sense.
 

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I mostly just wanted to be able to keep a good relationship with the breeder as he has a lot of good resources and contacts that will help me as I continue forward. So it'd be a shame to just cut and run
If they are acting this shady then there is something happening here that you want no part of. It is highly unlikely that this breeder is any good to you as a networking contact so I agree with Chas, cut and run.

What is your motivation for wanting to breed your dog?
 

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Yes the situation is super odd. TBH the person who bred the dog sounds like they don't know what they want to do and are erratic as well.

They're under no obligation to give you the papers, but saying you can have them, then wanting 1k, then just wanting to breed is inconsistent and wrong of them to jerk you around.

On the call with AKC what all was said?
 

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Why would you trust this breeder?
From what I just read and understand....

~First they say it's ok to keep the dog,
~They won't show you a contract that they say had with the person who sold you the dog to prove what was involved and if any provisions were broken.
~Now they are wanting $1,000 for a dog which they say was illegally sold AND...at least in my opinion...they were already probably paid for in full by the first owner
~They expect you just to hand over breeding rights to your dog with no effort on their end to get into writing an agreement which I think should include first and foremost..that paperwork you want...before anything else continues forward.
~Also what if they then demand after they get use of the dog as a stud...that you cannot breed your own dog without their consent or laying other claims to other litters that you ended up using your dog to sire.

If I read everything right... I think you really need to get all the paperwork done first, legal agreements made and signed off on before you allow them access to even a hair on your dog.

Do not agree to anything verbally or just through email or texting. A contract should be written and reviewed by a lawyer before you sign it...just to make sure you haven't left any loopholes that would allow that breeder unwanted access to your dog or any future monies you could make yourself by breeding him...etc.

Stormy
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Why would you trust this breeder?
From what I just read and understand....

~First they say it's ok to keep the dog,
~They won't show you a contract that they say had with the person who sold you the dog to prove what was involved and if any provisions were broken.
~Now they are wanting $1,000 for a dog which they say was illegally sold AND...at least in my opinion...they were already probably paid for in full by the first owner
~They expect you just to hand over breeding rights to your dog with no effort on their end to get into writing an agreement which I think should include first and foremost..that paperwork you want...before anything else continues forward.
~Also what if they then demand after they get use of the dog as a stud...that you cannot breed your own dog without their consent or laying other claims to other litters that you ended up using your dog to sire.

If I read everything right... I think you really need to get all the paperwork done first, legal agreements made and signed off on before you allow them access to even a hair on your dog.

Do not agree to anything verbally or just through email or texting. A contract should be written and reviewed by a lawyer before you sign it...just to make sure you haven't left any loopholes that would allow that breeder unwanted access to your dog or any future monies you could make yourself by breeding him...etc.

Stormy
They only had a verbal agreement with the previous owner.
It wasn’t that the dog was illegally sold ( I don’t believe I said that) just that he should have gone back to the breeder as that’s what was agreed on.
The dog was given to the previous owner, despite being the pick of the litter and supposed to stay, under the guise that he would be fully titled, that person did not and sold him twice without telling the breeder.

But I do agree with you that in terms of not allowing him access to him until I get what I need. That’s been my intention all along.

We talked about writing up a contract, and I even asked him to please explain the agreement further and what it entailed. But didn’t get a response when I asked.

Without a solid contract though I didn’t feel comfortable making any agreements so it was all just discussion as to what possible agreements could be with nothing concrete, at the time we were just focused on progressing his training towards his first title. If that makes sense.
 

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I mostly just wanted to be able to keep a good relationship with the breeder as he has a lot of good resources and contacts that will help me as I continue forward. So it'd be a shame to just cut and run
If they are acting this shady then there is something happening here that you want no part of. It is highly unlikely that this breeder is any good to you as a networking contact so I agree with Chas, cut and run.

What is your motivation for wanting to breed your dog?
It’s suspicious, but at this point since he hasn’t cut contact or anything like that, I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because of how helpful he’s been.

He doesn’t just know people, but also has been able to get me sponsorships, club contacts, and access to memberships that I didn’t have access to before. Which is why having him as a resource has been important to me as I’m really trying to build relationships.

As far as wanting to breed him, that’s honestly a secondary thing.
He’s got an impressive pedigree with high working titles on both sides, genetically and individually a very solid dog.
That being said, my first and foremost goal is to title him. He wouldn’t even be bred until he at least had an IGP2 and even then I’d prefer him be titled up to 3. All my dogs are health tested, so even if he wasn’t bred that’s going to be fully done.
The only motivation I have would be continuing the stellar pedigree, but if he doesn’t impress me as a individual, theres no reason to pass on those genetics.

So in short, If I find him to meet my standards, then he will possibly be bred. If not, he won’t.
The main focus is titling.
 

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It’s suspicious, but at this point since he hasn’t cut contact or anything like that, I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because of how helpful he’s been.
Look at the facts. The breeder has given you nothing, asked you to pay money -- basically holding the registration papers hostage -- and he as asked you to provide the dog for breeding. He's beating around the bush when you ask him for the papers and he's leading you on.

He's not being helpful. This is PURE manipulation. I negotiate in a business context for a living and my BS alarm is pinned from what you wrote. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me to see that behind the smoke screen something very shady (or even illegal) is happening.

Just because someone smiles at you and is friendly does NOT mean they can be trusted.

He doesn’t just know people, but also has been able to get me sponsorships, club contacts, and access to memberships that I didn’t have access to before. Which is why having him as a resource has been important to me as I’m really trying to build relationships.
I will repeat what I said and what Chas said above. Use him as a springboard if you want but as soon as you can you should cut and run. Giving little "presents" is the manipulators "ante" that keeps you in the game and keeps you hoping. It's a pattern that repeats itself countless times a day in almost every area of life, including, apparently, dogs.

Of course this is an opinion based only on what you wrote on this thread so I could be wrong... the internet is good for being wrong... but from what your wrote my BS alarm is ringing hard.

So in short, If I find him to meet my standards, then he will possibly be bred. If not, he won’t.
The main focus is titling.
Your business isn't really why I have a dog so I don't know the ins and outs of why titling is important to you but I accept that it is important enough not to throw in the towel. Let me ask you a question, though. Is it legal, or is there any kind of precedent, for a breeder to withhold papers and demand money for providing them?

My dog has papers too (not that I asked for them but because his parents were show dogs). Since we only wanted the dog as a pet we didn't care about it but the breeder insisted on putting it all to paper anyway "just in case".
 

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It’s suspicious, but at this point since he hasn’t cut contact or anything like that, I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt .
Incidentally, if you want to approach this from the point of view of a negotiation, you can see it like this:

1) he has something you want - namely, papers
2) you have something he wants - namely, the dog's DNA

You would think that it would be easy to reach a win-win (you get the papers and then he can breed the dog). This, however, is not what the breeder is proposing.

What the breeder is proposing is you do NOT get the papers and you provide the dog's DNA.

That, of course, is unacceptable. What you want out of this, ultimately, is title so this is what you have to ask for. The breeder needs to provide EVERYTHING you need to get that title without you giving anything back until AFTER title is achieved.

This is your starting position. If he asks you to do anything at all that doesn't lead to him giving you what you want then you can keep on repeating the following question:

"how can I do that?"

After asking that question you need to literally shut your mouth, say nothing else and wait in silence until your counterpart answers that question. If he answers the question with something ridiculous (which I predict he will), then come back to the topic again and repeat the question, "how can I do that".

for example, if he says, "let me breed your dog and I'll give you the papers after that" then YOU say, "how can I do that" (and shut up).

He might say something like, "people do this all the time. Another client has is dog with me right now... and blah blah blah"... to which you say, "I understand that other people do this but I'm sorry, I can't do that".

etc. It can be tricky when you're dealing with a con-man if you don't have training but you'll get further with him using this suggestion than you have been by just phoning him and asking for a status update.

Since this forum isn't for giving courses on negotiation, I'll leave it at that. Trust me. Remember this question. Use it, get everything you want before giving anything away and NEVER compromise with a con-man.

Good luck.
 

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It’s suspicious, but at this point since he hasn’t cut contact or anything like that, I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt .
Incidentally, if you want to approach this from the point of view of a negotiation, you can see it like this:

1) he has something you want - namely, papers
2) you have something he wants - namely, the dog's DNA

You would think that it would be easy to reach a win-win (you get the papers and then he can breed the dog). This, however, is not what the breeder is proposing.

What the breeder is proposing is you do NOT get the papers and you provide the dog's DNA.

That, of course, is unacceptable. What you want out of this, ultimately, is title so this is what you have to ask for. The breeder needs to provide EVERYTHING you need to get that title without you giving anything back until AFTER title is achieved.

This is your starting position. If he asks you to do anything at all that doesn't lead to him giving you what you want then you can keep on repeating the following question:

"how can I do that?"

After asking that question you need to literally shut your mouth, say nothing else and wait in silence until your counterpart answers that question. If he answers the question with something ridiculous (which I predict he will), then come back to the topic again and repeat the question, "how can I do that".

for example, if he says, "let me breed your dog and I'll give you the papers after that" then YOU say, "how can I do that" (and shut up).

He might say something like, "people do this all the time. Another client has is dog with me right now... and blah blah blah"... to which you say, "I understand that other people do this but I'm sorry, I can't do that".

etc. It can be tricky when you're dealing with a con-man if you don't have training but you'll get further with him using this suggestion than you have been by just phoning him and asking for a status update.

Since this forum isn't for giving courses on negotiation, I'll leave it at that. Trust me. Remember this question. Use it, get everything you want before giving anything away and NEVER compromise with a con-man.

Good luck.
That’s really good advice and I’ll do that.

He’s definitely not getting anything from me until I get my papers. I have what he wants (the dog) but technically I don’t need those papers to title my dog in my venue. So I can go about my training as if nothing has changed and be fine. It just allows me access to AKC titles which is always nice.

But I’m not sitting here completely messed over because of the situation, it’s just a nuisance. My last resort would be to threaten to neuter him and so he can be registered under PAL, I’m saving that for the end all be all though.

For now I just have to sit and wait for further contact.
 

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It’s suspicious, but at this point since he hasn’t cut contact or anything like that, I’m trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because of how helpful he’s been.
Look at the facts. The breeder has given you nothing, asked you to pay money -- basically holding the registration papers hostage -- and he as asked you to provide the dog for breeding. He's beating around the bush when you ask him for the papers and he's leading you on.

He's not being helpful. This is PURE manipulation. I negotiate in a business context for a living and my BS alarm is pinned from what you wrote. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me to see that behind the smoke screen something very shady (or even illegal) is happening.

Just because someone smiles at you and is friendly does NOT mean they can be trusted.

He doesn’t just know people, but also has been able to get me sponsorships, club contacts, and access to memberships that I didn’t have access to before. Which is why having him as a resource has been important to me as I’m really trying to build relationships.
I will repeat what I said and what Chas said above. Use him as a springboard if you want but as soon as you can you should cut and run. Giving little "presents" is the manipulators "ante" that keeps you in the game and keeps you hoping. It's a pattern that repeats itself countless times a day in almost every area of life, including, apparently, dogs.

Of course this is an opinion based only on what you wrote on this thread so I could be wrong... the internet is good for being wrong... but from what your wrote my BS alarm is ringing hard.

So in short, If I find him to meet my standards, then he will possibly be bred. If not, he won’t.
The main focus is titling.
Your business isn't really why I have a dog so I don't know the ins and outs of why titling is important to you but I accept that it is important enough not to throw in the towel. Let me ask you a question, though. Is it legal, or is there any kind of precedent, for a breeder to withhold papers and demand money for providing them?

My dog has papers too (not that I asked for them but because his parents were show dogs). Since we only wanted the dog as a pet we didn't care about it but the breeder insisted on putting it all to paper anyway "just in case".
I think the biggest thing I focus on is the fact that I have something he wants and though he also has something I want, I can live without those papers and continue on towards my goal like nothings changed.

So he really needs me far far more then I need him. Not having the papers just puts a damper on getting titles in a different venue which sucks but isn’t the end.

So I’m holding on to that and using it to my advantage.


As far as of being legal for them to hold on to papers or ask extra pay.
I was told that a breeder can’t ask you to pay for papers like they can’t say: this dog is 200, but 500 with papers”
But they can say: “ this dog is 500 limited and 800 full”

And that’s pretty typical.

Holding papers is also pretty typical too. Usually what a breeder will do is either hold the papers until the dog has been titled and health tested and then give them up on full reg. Or they’ll give them up on limited reg and change them to full once the dog is titled and health tested.

But both of those are done with the owner/handler having the registration number so that they CAN title the dog under the dogs registered name.

Both just save the breeder and their kennel name from someone taking a dog and breeding it without meeting any requirements and using them in a BYB manner.
 

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Sounds like the original owner was given the dog with the understanding the breeder could use him at stud which is what some kennels do. IF that was the case, she would have no right to sell the dog if she had a contract to return the dog to the breeder, not sell him.


Since you are health testing the dog and training him it would be to her advantage to give you the papers and you could work out something on the breeding end of it.
 

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It just allows me access to AKC titles which is always nice.
As I said in my previous post I have a dog as a pet so this whole thing about "papers" is new to me. What does an AKC title give you that the other thing you can do doesn't?

But I’m not sitting here completely messed over because of the situation, it’s just a nuisance.
Understood. You WANT this but you do not NEED this....

My last resort would be to threaten to neuter him and so he can be registered under PAL, I’m saving that for the end all be all though.
Is this the same thing you were alluding to above?

For now I just have to sit and wait for further contact.
Looking at it in terms of a negotiation we often have counterparts who take long breaks in communication. In order to reestablish a dialogue we usually send an email saying something to the effect, "have you given up on this?". This is a question that begs the "no", which, in fact, in a negotiation is a good thing. "No" is the key to "yes".... but again this isn't a course in negotiation. The suggestion for now is to mail/text/call him and ask the question, "have you given up on this?"

You will probably find that your counterpart will respond quickly and his answer will probably be "no", which is your opening to talk further.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Sounds like the original owner was given the dog with the understanding the breeder could use him at stud which is what some kennels do. IF that was the case, she would have no right to sell the dog if she had a contract to return the dog to the breeder, not sell him.


Since you are health testing the dog and training him it would be to her advantage to give you the papers and you could work out something on the breeding end of it.
Yeah I believe that was the case, or something along those lines. There was no written contract, but there was a verbal agreement (I know that doesn't mean much) from what I understood. And they actually ended up breaking the agreement twice as they sold him once around a year old, and then again to me at 2. The breeder had no knowledge of this until I contacted him and the original Handler ghosted us both and won't respond to any attempts to contact.
I think it was because they kind of knew the dog had been messed up through poor training practices and didn't want to be held accountable.

I've had him since September and he had to be completely restarted when I got him with a lot of confidence issues from previous training. But ultimately I think that person is a dead end and the breeder thought so too.
 

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As I said in my previous post I have a dog as a pet so this whole thing about "papers" is new to me. What does an AKC title give you that the other thing you can do doesn't?
Just a more diverse dog, most people who are into working lines only care about working titles, I personally want to have a more diverse dog with more then just working titles.

But thats simply because I'm trying to prove myself, to myself. Not for breeding purposes or anything else


Understood. You WANT this but you do not NEED this....
Correct! I can still technically do almost everything Im wanting without them, It'll just be kind of a shame to not have it put under his registered name.

Is this the same thing you were alluding to above?
No, so AKC PALS is for purebred dogs who don't come from a situation where they are able to be registered under AKC. So maybe they're from the shelter, or maybe their parents were registered. its basically just a way for owners of unregistered dogs, to be able to compete in AKC sporting events and get titles.

But your dog has to be neutered in order to get a PALS reg. number. I don't neuter my working dogs, so its not an option for us, but it is something I can use as pressure if I need to.

Looking at it in terms of a negotiation we often have counterparts who take long breaks in communication. In order to reestablish a dialogue we usually send an email saying something to the effect, "have you given up on this?". This is a question that begs the "no", which, in fact, in a negotiation is a good thing. "No" is the key to "yes".... but again this isn't a course in negotiation. The suggestion for now is to mail/text/call him and ask the question, "have you given up on this?"
You will probably find that your counterpart will respond quickly and his answer will probably be "no", which is your opening to talk further.[/QUOTE]

This is really good advice, its nice seeing it from a business perspective. I'm not the best with being demanding or pushy and I think thats one of my problems. I probably seem like I can be manipulated easily, which isn't the case. But I can understand my willingness to work on agreements probably comes off that way.

I think my biggest fear is that im going to be too pushy and then either he's gonna try to take the dog, which he technically couldn't as there was no signed agreement between him and the original owner, nor them and I, or he and I.

Or he completely refuse to give me papers which in reality wouldn't be any different then what's currently happening.

OR worse yet, if he did try to take the dog and I didn't comply, him smearing my name and or the original owner also getting involved. which most likely wouldn't happen, I don't think he's that type of person. But I always think of the worst in these situations so I know its just overthinking
 

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JNo, so AKC PALS is for purebred dogs who don't come from a situation where they are able to be registered under AKC. So maybe they're from the shelter, or maybe their parents were registered. its basically just a way for owners of unregistered dogs, to be able to compete in AKC sporting events and get titles.
I see. There is this whole sub-culture out there that I know virtually nothing about. When we bought our dog, as I mentioned before, we bought it from a breeder. The litter came from two show dogs (both purebred poodles) that the breeder was especially proud of. This isn't why we wanted the dog, we were just looking for a pet and we got a tip to talk to this breeder.

When we decided to actually buy one of her puppies she insisted on giving us all the paper work. Linage of our dog, of the parents, etc. She suggested we get a DNA test done as well to prove that the papers were legitimate. We never did that, of course, seeing as how we had no intention of breeding our dog. He's been neutered in the intervening time as well so that option is really off the table at this point.

What struck me was the importance the breeder gave to the papers. We told her "don't worry about it" but she insisted on getting it all on paper on the off chance that we have a change of heart and decide to breed the dog.

I found that fascinating and I'm finding your story fascinating as well for the same reason. It's a part of dog culture that until recently I didn't even know existed.

it is something I can use as pressure if I need to.
In a negotiation, never EVER make a threat unless you are prepared to follow through with it.

This is really good advice, its nice seeing it from a business perspective. I'm not the best with being demanding or pushy and I think thats one of my problems. I probably seem like I can be manipulated easily, which isn't the case. But I can understand my willingness to work on agreements probably comes off that way.
Up until now I wasn't getting much of a sense of your personality beyond the passion. It seems like you're viewing me as "demanding and pushy", which isn't really how I had hoped to come across :D

I think my biggest fear is that im going to be too pushy and then either he's gonna try to take the dog, which he technically couldn't as there was no signed agreement between him and the original owner, nor them and I, or he and I.

Or he completely refuse to give me papers which in reality wouldn't be any different then what's currently happening.

OR worse yet, if he did try to take the dog and I didn't comply, him smearing my name and or the original owner also getting involved. which most likely wouldn't happen, I don't think he's that type of person. But I always think of the worst in these situations so I know its just overthinking
You can just ask him. Just simply ask the question, "what do you intend to do if we can't reach a mutually satisfying agreement". (or whatever sounds right in your own words).

I ask this question all the time in negotiations. There is a concept called the "BATNA" (B)est (A)lternative (T)o a (N)egotiated (A)greement. It's the bottom line. Under that line parties will usually prefer to walk away instead of talking more and in my world it's completely normal to just ask the other guy what his BATNA is, provided you have built up a bit of rapport with him, which it sounds like you have in this case.
 
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