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Hello.
I have literally just joined the forum. My dog is Kyra. She is a Jack Russell/Min Pin mix. She is 9 months old. I have had her around a weekish now. Her previous owner said she was house trained (I would put this as an ish), afraid of men (shows a lot) but generally a cuddle, smart dog (Very true).
I am currently crate training for the house training. But I have a few ideas/issue I would like to bounce off of everyone. (I have been reading the threads but didn't seem to find many answers that go with Kyra specific). Also it's not just the potty training. So here goes.
Kyra can hold it all night, but will not go outside straight after waking. I stay outside for about an hour with her, to give her plenty of time. Go to the same spot to where she does go. But she doesn't really want to go. I repeat go pee pee, but still nothing. We go in, then roughly 9:30am I will give her her first meal in her crate, leave the bowl until finished or after 10 mins. Then wait 10 mins, or if she whines, I'll let her outside. Sometimes she goes, sometimes not. When it's not I try to play a little to stimulate her a bit. Mostly she will go. Then back into the crate. Then about 11:30 we go for a half hour walk where she usually goes. Back to crate. I'll have my meal at about 4 then she will have hers after. (Same as the morning meal) Mostly she will not go pee pee. Will wait an hour outside. Then 6pm we go for another 30 min walk. She will go toilet then. Then back to crate. Then 8-9pm we go out for the final time, sometimes she goes, sometimes not. We will have a little play first, then I try to wait her out, but by 10pm it gets a bit dark so we go in by then. She then lies beside my feet on the floor until bed time (around 11:30 - 12) then crate. But she is having accidents when in the crate if I go out. I do know her crate is a little large for her, so question 1 - How to separate it? She isn't really into chewing things so maybe cardboard boxes put at the back? She won't lie in her poop, she covers it with her blanket. So she isn't getting dirty, just the blankets. Also any ideas on getting her to go when she is in the garden, not just on walks? Should I try walking her just a little around the garden and then waiting? I thought having a play would encourage her bowls to move? She will not mess her crate if I am around. Also, sometimes during the afternoon she is out of the crate, so she isn't in the for hours on end. She actually loves her crate and would rather sit in there sometimes than by me.
Next chapter (lol) (also quick apology on length)
She is showing signs of dominance at this young age. She is walking out of doors before me, though she will sit and wait, just until I begin to move then whoosh, gone. But she is still on a leash so I can correct it. Do you think she will get this in time and persistent is best? When playing she will try and get above me. How can I nip this in the bud before it gets too bad, or am I doing ok and it will eventually sort itself out with my training? (Dominance is mainly shown in next part)
Next thing -
My Mum has 2 female jack russells. 1 - Holly, dominant out of the two, around 7 years. 2 - Sugar, spayed, very docile, loving dog, around 6 years old.
I took Kyra to my Mums. Kept her on the leash, let the dogs sniff each other, let her try to play with Sugar but she started to show signs of dominance, putting her paws on Sugars shoulders, humping etc... (And Kyra was having her first season at this point, she is now coming out of it). I corrected her, but Sugar also corrected her, and after awhile she stopped. Holly is not very sociable so she just growled a little but was more acceptant with Kyra than most dogs. I stayed the evening so she went into the bathroom, the other 2 were just outside in their own basket, I didn't want her to be too close just in case. Things went fine, she ended up in their basket and no growling. Took her home. Next day, I took her again. Still on leash, sniff sniff, let her off as I thought that would be fine, and everything went ok again. Holly was a bit more playful, they all played ball together. Fine. Went home.
Next day, came in, on leash, sniff sniff, fine. Let Kyra off her leash, she went about sniffing, ignoring both other dogs. Then Kyra just went for Holly. No warning, no growling, no fur standing, just wham. I broke them up (I know, bad idea but it just began and I felt safe). I put Kyra in the bathroom until she calmed down. I let her out when I felt she was calm, and whoosh, straight for Holly again. Back to bathroom. I then switched and put Holly inside, Kyra outside with Sugar and tried to let Kyra know Holly was boss trying to give treats, Holly first, Sugar then Kyra but Kyra still wouldn't leave Holly, I luckily had her on a leash so I just took Holly back in. Kyra then started showing aggression towards Sugar so I took her home after a firm "NO". So my question is, will I ever be able to take Kyra there again? Obviously I wouldn't do it straight away. I'm not stupid. But would walking them together, getting Kyra trained a bit more to learn our own family hierarchy first (as in it goes ME then Kyra) so I can be more influence if she tries for Holly? Do I wait for her to fully come out of season first? As Holly is not spayed, will that of made a difference? Is it because Kyra is now entering teenage years so she is going to be pushing her luck anyway? I thought, either walking just Holly and Kyra first, with treats, giving Holly treats, then Kyra, Holly attention then Kyra (I will not be walking them alone). Then slowly go to going in the garden together on leashes, gradually moving to off the leash when supervised? And I mean gradually, I do not want an aggressive dog or one that is afraid of other dogs, which is also starting to show on walks. At the moment I am just turning and walking away until I train her enough to pay attention to me on walks.
And finally, how do I get her attention and praise her for doing something good when she is just not interested in ANY toys for any longer than literally 1 second, and she is not even interested in any treats? Not my voice praise. Sometimes she will like treats, most times not. Toys don't entertain her. What else could I try??
I again apologise for the length of the post but I would love to hear the feedback form everyone as reading other threads, you all give wonderful advice and support.
 

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Just a couple of quick thoughts.

First, Kudos to you for taking this dog in and getting her sorted out! She sounds promising!

About the "dominance" thing... to be honest, a lot of that theory has been discredited now. The idea that a dog going out the door first is somehow trying to show her dominance over you is probably false. Really what is happening is she is excited to go out the door!

With regards to the fighting with the other dogs, it sounds like she is not well socialized with other dogs and has no clue how to interact normally. She may even be afraid of the other dogs and is taking the common tactic of attacking first, because she is afraid. The fact she is giving no signals could be either because she does not know "how to speak dog", or perhaps she is giving signals but you are missing them, as they are subtle.

I'd just recommend you get involved with a good POSITIVE based training class (no leash jerking, just food based rewards). With the help of a good trainer you can get her more socialized. Meanwhile, make sure she does not have the opportunity to fight with the other dogs... keep them physically separated or under leash control. You don't want her to repeatedly "rehearse" these behaviors, as they become self reinforcing and habit forming.

Try kikopups channel for training ideas too.
YouTube - kikopup's Channel
 

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About the house training issues, I don't think you need to make her crate smaller. She still has some instinct to keep herself clean.
Start again as if she were a puppy, with frequent trips outside, on a leash, where you take her to the place you want her to potty, and when she goes, give her a food reward!
Never scold her for a mistake, as this will just make her think it is dangerous to go Potty with you around. You need her to feel comfortable going near you so you can reward her so she learns the CORRECT thing to do.

In general mistakes are usually because we humans did not anticipate and get the dog out in time, so that is another reason not to scold.

Get her outside, reward her when she potties, repeat, repeat, repeat, and soon you have the correct habits you want.

When she's inside, keep a close eye on her, or tether her to you, so she is PREVENTED from making mistakes.

It is all about FORMING THE RIGHT HABITS.

Good luck!
 

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I agree with Tess's advice and I would try to find some super yummy treats she likes. You could try hotdogs or cheese or even bits of cooked chicken/liver.
 

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try taking all 3 dogs for a walk to get to know eachother. my dog isnt very sociable with other dogs due to being in a rescue center but she had to get used to my fiances dog so we walked them together and let them off their leads and they did their own thing and basically let them get on with it as they did not fight just a few growls. now they are best of friends. i hope this helps!
 

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One more thing... when you take her out to potty, take her on a leash, and AFTER she potties and get the reward, then let her run and play! This way she will learn to hurry up and potty, because then comes the fun!

If you always take her right back inside after she potties, she will learn to delay.

See dogs operate by simple principles...
they learn to do things because it brings more fun things... so you get to organize their lives so the fun stuff happens right after the things you need to have them do.

For example, ask her to "sit" before you let her out the door. Then she learns to be polite to sit, because the "fun stuff" of going outside follows.

Once you understand and start applying this principle, training gets much easier!
 

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Ditto to the dominance thing. There's no need to go out the door before her/eat before her/be above her/etc. Dominance theory has pretty much been debunked, and ignoring all of the dominance "rules" that you hear will probably give you an easier time training and closer bond do your dog.

But she is having accidents when in the crate if I go out. I do know her crate is a little large for her, so question 1 - How to separate it? She isn't really into chewing things so maybe cardboard boxes put at the back? She won't lie in her poop, she covers it with her blanket. So she isn't getting dirty, just the blankets.
How long are you leaving her in the crate when you go out and how long do you leave her in when you stay in? It could be a matter of length of time versus staying/leaving. Is she crated overnight away from you, and does she do fine through the night? If size of the crate is the issue, I think others have suggested a piece of wood; she could just chew the cardboard.

Also any ideas on getting her to go when she is in the garden, not just on walks? Should I try walking her just a little around the garden and then waiting? I thought having a play would encourage her bowls to move?
She may have learned she can wait to potty on walks, which is much more fun for her. You could take her to her potty spot before walks, walk her without stopping to let her potty, then take her to her potty spot after her walks.

Also, with playing during potty time, you may have inadvertently trained her to think going outside = play time. I would let her play outside after she potties, so that she learns she gets to play after pottying, not before.

I thought, either walking just Holly and Kyra first, with treats, giving Holly treats, then Kyra, Holly attention then Kyra (I will not be walking them alone). Then slowly go to going in the garden together on leashes, gradually moving to off the leash when supervised? And I mean gradually, I do not want an aggressive dog or one that is afraid of other dogs, which is also starting to show on walks.
This sounds like a good idea based on what I know about counter conditioning (walking them together with lots of treats in neutral area and working up to off-leash), but I will let our more experienced members give feedback. I would stay away from corrections, though, since it can lead to exciting the dog more.

And finally, how do I get her attention and praise her for doing something good when she is just not interested in ANY toys for any longer than literally 1 second, and she is not even interested in any treats? Not my voice praise. Sometimes she will like treats, most times not. Toys don't entertain her. What else could I try?
How high a value treat is it for her? When I had a reactive pin, I had to use SUPER high value treats for harder things. Walks with other dogs visible (his trigger) meant cooked chicken pieces. Training inside the house was kibble or lower value food.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
First, thank you for replying so quickly :) Second thank you for the compliment on Kyra, she really is wonderful.

I only scold if she happens to go on the carpet. And it's never a rough scold, just a firm "no" which she understands, and only if I actually catch her doing it. (I think I have done it once, as when unsupervised she's in her crate)
Roughly, how long should I take her out after eating/play because even though she is a sort of puppy, she is a sort of adult now and all I can find is puppy stuff (up to 8 months). I know I can't get anything concrete and I don't expect it :) I wait 10 mins, and she doesn't go, so maybe if I wait half an hour?

Also on socializing, could you recommend a read on it? She mainly is afraid of men, other dogs and well she just tries to chase cats so I think that's more instinct. My Dad tried the just sit and wait, that worked well but getting a stranger to do it is a bit hard. Any tips would be fantastic. But teaching her that what she is doing is good, the look at it game etc... doesn't seem to sink in as....

Last question :)
She just isn't interested in treats, be it a nice bit of chicken, a nice bit of her normal dry food or even the stinkiest treat I could find at the pet store. And she really isn't interested in toys. Sometimes she shows pleasure in my voice praise, most times not. So really, what can I praise her with. I sort of understand the basics of clicker training, but don't you need to click, praise with a treat for her to understand that the clicker means well done? Or even a voice well done, but she doesn't want to know. I think that's our main problem.
Thank you again. Sorry for the 21 questions but I finally found a place I can have answers :D
 

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Roughly, how long should I take her out after eating/play because even though she is a sort of puppy, she is a sort of adult now and all I can find is puppy stuff (up to 8 months). I know I can't get anything concrete and I don't expect it :) I wait 10 mins, and she doesn't go, so maybe if I wait half an hour?
I would wait 15 min. then if she still doesn't go I would up it 20 min. Then I would give her 15 min. outside to do her business and if she doesn't she goes back to the crate for another 15 or 20 min.



Last question :)
She just isn't interested in treats, be it a nice bit of chicken, a nice bit of her normal dry food or even the stinkiest treat I could find at the pet store. And she really isn't interested in toys. Sometimes she shows pleasure in my voice praise, most times not. So really, what can I praise her with. I sort of understand the basics of clicker training, but don't you need to click, praise with a treat for her to understand that the clicker means well done? Or even a voice well done, but she doesn't want to know. I think that's our main problem.
Thank you again. Sorry for the 21 questions but I finally found a place I can have answers :D
Again I would try other things since treats are going to be an important part of her training. Try liver or a little bit of cheese and hot dogs cut into little pieces. Some dogs even like bread so that's another option. ;)
 

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Wow, so many replies whilst I'm replying :)
I'm never gone for more than 2 hours. It's mainly when I cannot watch her, she goes in there with the door shut. And I always take her to the garden first. I guess I will have to get a comfy chair and just wait her out in the garden. Nice to know with the dominance thing. She will sit on command so I do try but as soon as I turn my back she's out the door.
She goes through the night in the crate, and I am sleeping on the couch at the moment (health issues) and she is in the living room, but her crate is by my bedroom door, so she can still see me if I sleep in bed. Her bed is her crate as she automatically goes in there when she is tired. I think her previous owner had it this way? I'm not too sure. There is a blanket down beside my sofa, where she can sit or the crate, she knows she can go to either one when I can keep an eye on her but she prefers her crate.
I haven't a clue what a high value treat could be for her? I have tried most meats, cheese, treats, everything I can think of. Cheese worked the best, so I may just keep going with that but even with that it's hit and miss whether she wants it that bad.
 

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Just an idea but my girls love veggies and fruits. Maybe try carrots or watermelon, apples, peaches even green beans or asparagus. What ever you think she might like. :)
 

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If you've had her a week, it could just be that she's still settling. My pin was super food motivated, but for the first week I had him, all he did was pace and whine and seemed totally uninterested in food. I would continue to be consistent, and she'll start to settle better; you may find out that she really does like a specific treat or toy for rewards once she's more comfortable.

This link may be helpful Re: socialization. It's more desensitization at this point since she's already established fear of certain things. 4 Paws University Sacramento Dog Obedience Training
 

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It does not matter that she is 8 months. The fact is she is not house trained yet, so you deal with her as if she were a young puppy in terms of getting her outside often, and supervising or confining her when inside.

She does not UNDERSTAND yet what you want in terms of housetraining. Dogs pee on carpets because it is a porous surface. She does not understand the distinction yet between "outside/inside". She may only have learned so far "safe/dangerous" where safe is while you are not looking and dangerous is when you are nearby.
This may be why you are having trouble getting her to pee outside while you wait. You did not teach her this problem. Her previous owner did. A dog not housetrained by 8 months is quite confused, and has not had effective house training. She was probably punished for her accidents, which is the root of nearly all house training problems.

You need to reverse this problem. Absolutely you mustn't scold her if you catch her. Instead, just hustle her outside with "oops! let's go outside for that!" and whisk her outside to finish peeing.

Again, keep her on a leash until she pees. You need to make that breakthrough where she feels safe pottying in front of you, so you can reward her. Otherwise the whole thing is confusing for her... she knows she gets negative feedback from humans for pottying, but she has not figured out why.

She needs to be shown what is CORRECT, not just given negatives for all the mistakes.

Am I making sense?
 

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A hungry dog likes treats.
Use her daily food ration as rewards, one kibble at a time.
You can reward her for everything you want her to do, sit, potty, come, what ever!
It will work wonders!
(of course, make sure she does get all her food by the end of the day!)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thank you SeeBrown for the link, I've just enquired about enrolling in dog training class, and they also have a 1 on 1 trainer if they don't think she's suitable to go to a full class yet.
Tess
I understand completely. I won't scold her, I am not into the punish kind of training, I like the positive, it worked for my Mum's too when we all trained them, and they are very good, loyal dogs. My ex tried the punish training and his dog is just afraid of him, doesn't respect him and is just plain well untrained.
She will potty in front of me, and of course I praise and praise and praise, I don't really want to give her a treat here, just in case it turns into her expecting a treat every time she goes, whether in doors or on a walk. Plus, I doubt she would want it anyway.
I am not going to taker her out as she has just woken up, (we had a very long walk today, I am trying to train her to heel, which is kind of working, but I am a very patient woman!!!) so we will see if we get some potty out of her! Sad to say but I feel so chuffed when she goes, and sometimes she will come up to me as she knows I will praise her, so that leads me to believe I'm taking her out at the wrong times?!
 

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I understand completely. I won't scold her, I am not into the punish kind of training, I like the positive, it worked for my Mum's too when we all trained them, and they are very good, loyal dogs. My ex tried the punish training and his dog is just afraid of him, doesn't respect him and is just plain well untrained.
She will potty in front of me, and of course I praise and praise and praise, I don't really want to give her a treat here, just in case it turns into her expecting a treat every time she goes, whether in doors or on a walk. Plus, I doubt she would want it anyway.
I am not going to taker her out as she has just woken up, (we had a very long walk today, I am trying to train her to heel, which is kind of working, but I am a very patient woman!!!) so we will see if we get some potty out of her! Sad to say but I feel so chuffed when she goes, and sometimes she will come up to me as she knows I will praise her, so that leads me to believe I'm taking her out at the wrong times?!
I get that you are not into the punishment thing! So keep up the positive stuff!

Still, you must realize that praise is of very limited value to a dog. Praise in itself will not be a strong enough re-enforcer for her to get the association you want.

Giving treats for wanted behaviors is absolutely the FASTEST way to teach. Getting her housetrained this way is the best thing, and once she is trained well, you won't have to keep treating her for every potty event for the rest of her life!

Get her house trained first, worry about weaning away from treats later. Really, I wish I could give you a piece of chocolate cake for believing me. ;)
 

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There is no such thing as "taking her out at the wrong times" there is only "not taking her out often enough."

And I don't know what "chuffed" means... is it a UK expression?
 

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I am now going to take her out even! I rushed the typing lol. We had a pee, but no poop sadly and it's raining badly, so I think we both gave up after 15 mins. I tried praising her, well I did praise her but whether she acknowledged it is another matter. I'll try again in maybe half an hour, I'll just keep an eye on to see if she shows any signs.
 
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