[Fidelis]

Good day to everyone

I have a livestock guardian dog 8 months old male.He lives in our yard/garden.

When we come outside the house door, when we are away and come back from work and in general when he plays and gets excited he starts biting and nipping.....its a combination of his herding instinct..frustration cause he is alone in the house for a few hours and puppy clumsiness... the result however is, although he means no harm, that this behaviour needs to stop. He is a big dog 50kgr+ and often his teeth hit bone and its quite painful...he even grazed by accident my 4 y.o. son's eyebrow when they stumbled together to the ground while playing...

The truth is that i dont have huge amounts of time to dedicate but i ve trained him to basic obedience/leash walking and many other simple things. I tried to stop him biting with positive reinforcement , with a slip leash, by shouting that am in pain e.t.c...but only work momentarily.i dont have a crate to isolate him for a time out when he demonstrates this behaviour but i can put him on a leash and let him calm down in a corner of the yard for a short break...which seems to work a bit.
The behaviour is much more pronunciated when he is around my child that have the same height and the dog treats him as another puppy and plays rough with him...the truth is the child is also reactive and when the biting starts the child reacts and i have to intervene and step in not knowing who to protect...The truth is... that due to a panosteitis problem and loose hips for the last two months i have stopped being strict with him and let him do whatever he likes,but that led to stubborness and dominant behaviour from his side...Now though we are into adolescence and need some catch up in training

Any suggestions? Will he quit doing that or do it less growing up?Which method do you suggest considering all the above?

 

[JoanneF]

If you can't isolate him for a time out, remove yourself (and everyone in the family needs to be consistent with this - every person, every time).

When he learns that teeth on skin = immediate end of fun, he will get the message.

dominant behaviour from his side

That's the flat earth theory of dog training - thoroughly disproven and discredited, but old fashioned trainers still insist on referring to it. Please disregard anything you have told about dominance; until he steals money from your wallet and takes your car without asking, I promise you dominance is not what you are seeing.

 

[Fidelis]

Thanks for your response.The biting/ niping is not what i was referring to as dominance. By dominant behaviour i mean behaviour is exhibiting such us: growling if my wife tries to handle him by the colar,blocking pathways and deliberately trying to push and stop my wife and kid and in general bullying behaviour, not over the top but signs... things though,that nevers tries on me..

I thought also, giving this as an example,in a group of guardian dogs when working as a team there is a leader,the one that goes first when confronting the wolf, also when this dog usually male wants to warn another dog of the team or correct it ,he shows his intensions and the other member resumes a submissive stance.This.can also be seen also when dogs meet each other outside for the first time. I owned several dogs and some had it more and others less or none at all.How is this behaviour often linked to testosterone fueled males called?
There is no chance that a dog is trying to find his place in his pack ,in this instance the family he lives with?

 

[JoanneF]

. By dominant behaviour i mean behaviour is exhibiting such us: growling if my wife tries to handle him by the colar,

That isn't dominance, that's a communication that he doesn't like what she is doing. And, it's a pretty strong warning too - there will almost certainly have been more subtle communications that he was uncomfortable but these haven't been seen - or, in his view they have been ignored so now he is having to be even clearer. If she continues to disregard what he is saying, the next stages will be snap and bite.

Rather than handle him by the collar - when he seems to dislike - can your wife lure him out of her way, or teach him to touch her hand with his nose, then she can use that signal to move him. What you don't want to do is stop him growling, that would be like taking the battery out of a smoke alarm - the noise might stop, but you don't solve the real problem.

Regarding behaviour between dogs, your dog knows you aren't another dog. And, I think you will find different dogs will take the lead in different situations. There's also a big difference between leadership and dominance. If you think of great leaders that you admire in your own life, they inspire followership, they don't get it by dominating people.

 

[Fidelis]

Correct leadership and hierarchy were the words that should have used instead,they describe better what i meant. It seems that dominance is connected to exhibiting power through aggression specially from the trainer's side and has become sort of a trigger word...

My wife never tried to handle him before or train him...she just plays with him. It was the first time she tried to leash him and lead him to a time out. Maybe he doesn't like it when i do it and tried his chances with her.

 

[JoanneF]

Possibly. You could try stepping out of the room yourself rather than try to lead him out.

 

[CachetheBC]

The biting and nipping, even the rudeness/pushiness - standing in the way, sounds like typical behavior for puppy who is on his way to becoming (is not yet) an adult dog. As young dog with little self control he gets excited when he is greeting or gets a little amped up/ rough when trying to play, when it happens take a moment to consider what you could get him to do that would engage his brain and is incompatible with that behavior - perhaps cue a sit (sit to greet) or a down, even a behavior such as 'touch' your hand with his nose, or chase a tossed toy - and then reward him with a food reward (while he is learning the new, acceptable behavior) and give him the attention he is seeking.

Take a moment to consider that leashing him and leading him off to a corner to be by himself, is (in his eyes) a negative consequence for being leashed, the 'isolation' happens far too long after the biting/nipping for him to be able to associate it with that unwanted behavior.
It sounds like he may be starting to associate being leashed with negative consequence (isolation) hence the warning growl that he displayed towards your wife.

Dogs associate what happened next with what happened immediately prior to the positive or negative consequence, he cannot 'reason' /back track in time and figure out that being isolated is because of the rough play behavior that happened before being leashed and led off into the corner. The time out may give him the time he needs to calm himself, so that he doesn't immediately go back to the rough play, but he still won't understand why he ended up there in the first place.

While I can understand not having a lot of time to work with him, life is busy, but any time you can find now to invest in helping him now will pay off long run. Consider that he does need help to burn some of his puppy mental and physical energy. Perhaps taking some time each day reinforcing the skills he already has, doesn't have to be structured training sessions, a few minutes here and there works well too, brain games, 'settle', perhaps teach him some new skills that can help him to learn some self-control - leave it/ take it, wait/stay, go to a mat/bed and 'settle' there until released.

 

[Fidelis]

The biting and nipping, even the rudeness/pushiness - standing in the way, sounds like typical behavior for puppy who is on his way to becoming (is not yet) an adult dog. As young dog with little self control he gets excited when he is greeting or gets a little amped up/ rough when trying to play, when it happens take a moment to consider what you could get him to do that would engage his brain and is incompatible with that behavior - perhaps cue a sit (sit to greet) or a down, even a behavior such as 'touch' your hand with his nose, or chase a tossed toy - and then reward him with a food reward (while he is learning the new, acceptable behavior) and give him the attention he is seeking.

Take a moment to consider that leashing him and leading him off to a corner to be by himself, is (in his eyes) a negative consequence for being leashed, the 'isolation' happens far too long after the biting/nipping for him to be able to associate it with that unwanted behavior.
It sounds like he may be starting to associate being leashed with negative consequence (isolation) hence the warning growl that he displayed towards your wife.

Dogs associate what happened next with what happened immediately prior to the positive or negative consequence, he cannot 'reason' /back track in time and figure out that being isolated is because of the rough play behavior that happened before being leashed and led off into the corner. The time out may give him the time he needs to calm himself, so that he doesn't immediately go back to the rough play, but he still won't understand why he ended up there in the first place.

While I can understand not having a lot of time to work with him, life is busy, but any time you can find now to invest in helping him now will pay off long run. Consider that he does need help to burn some of his puppy mental and physical energy. Perhaps taking some time each day reinforcing the skills he already has, doesn't have to be structured training sessions, a few minutes here and there works well too, brain games, 'settle', perhaps teach him some new skills that can help him to learn some self-control - leave it/ take it, wait/stay, go to a mat/bed and 'settle' there until released.

Thank you! Great advice.

 

[Fidelis]

Possibly. You could try stepping out of the room yourself rather than try to lead him out.

The problem is that it is not a room is a yard and garden....and it is not possible for the whole family to get out of the yard gate or get inside the house when the dog starts biting/nipping just to show him that it is not acceptable...there are various jobs and errants that need to be taken care of outside the house in various instances throughout the day...laso the child wants to play with his bicycle, football etc...i cannot keep interrupting him, he is a 4y.o. and uncooperative as usual. So i need other solutions, that is why i have tried a time out, and unfortunately as i dont have a crate i needed to leash him.
As CachetheBC suggested the isolation technique might help calming him down but it might not be helping him to reason why he ends up there...so the immidiate handling from the colar and escorting him to separation was what i thought would help him make the connection...

 

[Fidelis]

While I can understand not having a lot of time to work with him, life is busy, but any time you can find now to invest in helping him now will pay off long run. Consider that he does need help to burn some of his puppy mental and physical energy. Perhaps taking some time each day reinforcing the skills he already has, doesn't have to be structured training sessions, a few minutes here and there works well too, brain games, 'settle', perhaps teach him some new skills that can help him to learn some self-control - leave it/ take it, wait/stay, go to a mat/bed and 'settle' there until released.

Each day i go out with him for a 40 minute walk twice a day and before the walk we do a rehearsal of the basic obedience routine plus extra commands. Every weekends we go for three walks and also play with him/train him in the yard for another hour....i mean its not that i dont dedicate to him anytime at all...i try my best but he is so stubborn...he even shakes his head left to right like saying i know what you mean but NO when i try to correct him sometimes..believe it or not..hehehe.
All training takes place using positive reinforcement

 

[JoanneF]

that is why i have tried a time out, and unfortunately as i dont have a crate i needed to leash him.

Maybe having a short (~30 cm) leash attached to (hanging from) his collar would help so it's just something to get hold of, rather than have to put on? If possible, use one without a handle loop for safety.

 

[Fidelis]

Maybe having a short (~30 cm) leash attached to (hanging from) his collar would help so it's just something to get hold of, rather than have to put on? If possible, use one without a handle loop for safety.

Thanks! Perfect idea! It would definitely help and i think he will feel less threatened handled this way in comparison to grabbing him from the collar.

 

[JoanneF]

I should have said, it's also a good idea to get him used to being handled around the collar. So start with rubbing his neck and reward, touching and holding the collar (without pulling) and reward; and so on, a little every day until it becomes a non-issue.