[Wranglercmd]

I have a coonhound puppy (now 9 months old)- I thought I was getting a "Lab-mix".. but no, he's 100% coonhound (Walker-Redbone). - I say this because it wasn't on purpose that I got a dog with a high energy level and a very serious prey drive.

My previous dog was a Catahoula and we consistently had her off-leash and didn't do much training, just started as a puppy. And her recall was SOLID... So, naively I attempted the same with my new dog, and around 6 months, he just bolted off after a cat and I lost him (a kind person found him a couple of miles from my house). At this point, two things became very obvious to me... 1- his prey drive was out of control and this instinct is something you have to manage differently than simple behavior correction 2- he HAS to be off leash in a park or area where it is safe because although I am active and able-bodied, there is NO WAY I could properly exercise him by walking.

I consulted many different people because the reality was if I couldn't come up with a safe way for him to be off-leash, I would have to give him up... which wasn't an option because I love him so much. I watched a number of YouTube videos by various pet trainers and hunters. After this, I decided to get an e-collar despite the controversy (I did a lot of research before I made the decision). And it has been the best tool I could ever imagine. After training him, I always keep it on him for emergencies, but now he responds extremely well to my verbal commands alone (much better than before) and occasionally I vibrate him (not shock)... I have shocked him a couple of times at a low level and he "got" the concept that I give him a command and vibrate him until the moment he follows my command and if he doesn't he gets shocked.

I think there is a misconception that e-collars are a punishment, but I'm not sure people understand when the dog is properly trained (by being rewarded for a proper response to the collar), it can be a sure way to shift the dog's focus from the prey to your command. Even if it is just a beep or a vibration - if properly conditioned - it is enough to get their attention (in my experience)... as I think it is easier for them to ignore noise when they are fully focused on pursuing something.

If you do decide that an e-collar might work for you, I found the Sport Dog YouTube training videos to be extremely helpful. I can also say that I purchased a few inexpensive e-collars from Amazon ($45-$65) and had to return them because after using them on myself only, I learned the timing was way off, the button placement was horrible and use required 2 hands - which you can't do when you're using a leash which is how you introduce the concept and false claims to be waterproof. I ended up going with a basic Dogtra collar and I have heard great things about the Educator collars.

I hope this helps... of course it could be that this doesn't feel like the right solution for you, but for me, it was either this - or not give my dog the chance to have the best life possible with me as his owner - or if I'm lucky maybe he'd show up at a shelter 2 counties away. I fundamentally believe instinct is something you have to manage by shifting their focus and a voice or a piece of cheese (or other highly desirable treat is going to do it. When my dog catches a scent - I know he can't hear a thing. But.. he can feel when his neck vibrates and certainly in an emergency when he is shocked (at a low level - it is static electricity.

Now, if I am to be honest about my biggest struggle with an e-collar is at first it takes a tremendous amount of attention. At first, for the best response, you have to catch your dog at the moment they are contemplating bolting. My dog will freeze, sniff the air for a second, stick his tail up - curled, and then BOLT. The time to call him and vibrate at the same time is while he is "contemplating".

 

[Wranglercmd]

I want to clarify my response. It was only regarding RECALL. Basically, I think you can get most any breed if you use an e-collar and train the dog properly. I want to add that I have almost 100% recall and have only been using it for 3 months (some of it training, mostly just having him wear it and vibrating him). Today, he saw or smelled a doggie-friend in the distance and darted off after him... I called him and he came back.. no need to use the collar because he's been properly conditioned. But.. I still put it on him because you never know.

 

[Wranglercmd]

I read the article and a commentary that pointed out the numerous flaws in the design (linked below) of the study you referenced. I do research for a living and I realize people can argue different points forever, however... given the study group and the nature of the problems (aggression and not prey drive) confounded by the techniques used, it would be hard to relate the article. I'm not interested in starting a debate, but I do think you, or others who may be interested in the topic, should acknowledge the commentary when considering the value of the research.

Frontiers | Commentary: Efficacy of Dog Training With and Without Remote Electronic Collars vs. a Focus on Positive Reinforcement (frontiersin.org)

 

[Wranglercmd]

My advice would be to not only take the prey drive into account but also the dog's trainability because if you choose to use not to use an e-collar, you certainly want a breed that is reliable.... and I hate to say it, but not all dogs are reliable especially coonhounds - I've never experienced anything like them. And their issues are well-known and most would agree with me. The same information is available for all of the breeds.

 

[Wranglercmd]

I would have completely agreed with you - 100%-.I expect my Catahoula was similar to your terrier- hard to train, but eventually, they listen... . I honestly thought I was an expert dog trainer based on how well my dog was trained... but then I got a coonhound. It is something you must experience to understand and again, it is well documented - and the information is available for all breeds. And for this reason, a discussion like this is so useful when considering which dog is the best fit.

The question of genetics and its role in obedience is really a question of how susceptible a dog is to all of the factors that go into learning (and those are genetic).

 

[Wranglercmd]

@Wranglercmd as stated this is a non-aversive forum and promoting e-collars is specifically prohibited in our rules, which members agree to observe when joining.

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The following is a list of basic rules and guidelines about what is and is not allowed while posting on our site. These rules are in addition to what is listed in our Terms Of Use. Please read through these sections before using our site, and contact us if you have any questions. 1. You may...

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Several things leap out from your replies.

First, he is only nine months old. His head will be all over the place, like most dogs of that age.



If you can train by rewarding a response to the collar, you can train by rewarding a response to something else. And your e-collar could fail too. A lot of dogs get such an adrenaline high from the chase that they just power through the pain. So, you turn it up a notch. Then, you have to do it again. When do you stop? That's a rhetorical question, this is not a debate and further attempts to justify this type of tool will not be accepted.



So, you put your wishes ahead of what was best for the dog.


Secure fields with a perimeter fence? Or maybe training him differently, or participating in an active sport like bikejoring ? Or maybe putting his needs before yours and accepting you are maybe over-dogged?

Anyway, there are alternatives to shock collars - @dierne, please don't follow the advice to get one, there are alternatives that are far kinder.

I would encourage learning as much as possible on how much technology and training techniques have changed in the past decade. For instance, the term "shock collars" is no longer an accurate or acceptable term as it applies to something other than static energy and older technology.

Clearly, based on the resistance and how far off-base many comments here appear to be, there is an information gathering bias that appears much like ignorance - when information is available and not considered because the choice to remain uneducated on a given topic is made on purpose - repeatedly.

 

[Wranglercmd]

I would encourage learning as much as possible on how much technology and training techniques have changed in the past decade. For instance, the term "shock collars" is no longer an accurate or acceptable term as it applies to something other than static energy and older technology.

Clearly, based on the resistance and how far off-base many comments here appear to be, there is an information gathering bias that appears much like ignorance - when information is available and not considered because the choice to remain uneducated on a given topic is made on purpose - repeatedly.

I HAVE EDITED MY POST- IT TIMED OUT AND I WASN"T ABLE TO AMEND PREVIOUS REPLY

I would encourage learning as much as possible about how technology and training techniques have changed in the past decade. For instance, the term "shock collars" reflects a bias and so does the complete banning of a topic that is not well understood. Before I considered the information, I was depriving my dog of a safe off-leash experience that is necessary with such an energy level. And the person who initiated the question about choosing a breed may very well make a decision based on limited knowledge of all training options as well.

Clearly, based on the resistance and how far off-base many comments here appear to be, there is an information-gathering bias that appears much like ignorance - when information is available and not considered because the choice to remain uneducated on a given topic is made on purpose - repeatedly. Mostly, there is an assumption that I failed to consider other behavioral alternatives when this simply isn't true. I consulted a number of trainers and thought very seriously before making a choice.

 

[Wranglercmd]

I sincerely apologize and completely understand that I have overstepped the clearly defined and necessary rules that have to be upheld based on the widespread misuse of the technology. I feel that I must retract my statements in support of the goals of this forum which are very much in line with our collective approach and the clear concerns that we have for dogs and the care they receive as well as the fundamentals and consideration of alternatives to anything that may be used improperly and can even (in some cases) be known to "break a dog's spirit". I believe if a person is willing to use the tools without education and experience, these same owners will surely find a way to "break a dog's spirit" in a host of other ways. And the risk of supporting the potential of that in any way must be firmly rejected by a community of educated people whose primary interest must be a dog's wellbeing.

I've seen this misuse directly because I've used horribly designed equipment with obviously no quality control and no person in their right mind would put these cheaply made devices on a dog after using it on themselves. I also think older devices were similar. After testing, I found these particular things to be similar to torture devices, and yet thousands are sold. In my own defense, I believe it is because I care so much about my dog that I have gone to the extent I have to provide a very careful application, which despite belief is not easy for an owner to do and SHOULD NOT BE RECOMMENDED CASUALLY... AND FOR THAT REASON I WAS COMPLETELY OUT OF LINE- and would never want a dog owner to consider these alternatives lightly... simply by reading a recommendation and applying it without using the alternatives that you stand by.

To your point, the dogs in this picture are enjoying off-leash freedom (the Great Dane has a GPS tracker and was trained using only positive reinforcement and the Lab owner has established near-perfect recall). My dog (top left- was a young puppy who would never stray at that point in development). And my intentions were to stress the significant instincts and differences in prey drive and breed selection, which is where the discussion started. As I said, I thought I was getting lab mix and I was initially trying to voice my experience... I was not considering the larger goals of the community. It was stated that I may be "over dogged" and admittedly I certainly was before I sought out as much guidance and informed about as many forms of training as I could and talked to coonhound owners of all types (normal pet trainers, owners, hunters). I also stated, that my dog is trained enough at this point to not require anything aversive which is clearly the preferred way and should have been the point of what I attempted to convey - the challenge of breed selection and lifestyle fit.

I also failed to mention that I walk my dog 3 miles a day (1.5 miles in the morning and 1.5 miles mid-day and I take him to play off-leash for an hour in the evening with other dogs and he spends a great deal of time outside in the yard). I CANNOT UNDERMINE THE VALUE OF EXERCISE- because it was also a change that I made as he got older and that change alone allowed me to access a dog that was more able to be trained effectively.

Please consider this post to over-ride my previous posts - I think it is much more accurate. And, if you see fit - please remove anything I have previously written that you find inappropriate or undesirable for this goals of this forum.

 

[Wranglercmd]

I forgot my referenced photo.

 

[Wranglercmd]

It really serves no purpose to ignore the rules of this non- aversive forum and then presume to make assumptions of others by implying they are ignorant and/or uneducated. Many of us are well educated and fully aware of how and why those tools work (via suppressing behavior through the infliction of emotional and/or physical discomfort and/or pain) and are strongly opposed to the use of them.

You are absolutely correct. I reacted inappropriately in ignorance. Please consider my recent post and understand that it was my error and my fault in the first place for inappropriately communicating the bigger picture. I also took the discussion down a horribly negative and inappropriate path and failed to focus on the needs of the person who initially posed the question and everyone who responded much more appropriately than I did. I started out inspired by the question of breed selection and its importance. Additionally, no one was even mentioning coonhounds before I came along and upset a quality discussion.

 

[Wranglercmd]

Perhaps being a scientist / engineer myself, (it's also what I do for a living) and as such perhaps overlooked or didn't make it clear ... but the point of saying "some studies", I thought it was implied that this is by no means "settled science". Conversely, it also means that the position that e-collars are more effective and worth their emotional and physical toll is also in question. But regardless of the conclusion on training effectiveness, the physical and emotional impacts are rarely considered in the evaluation.

Ok, please can we get this back on topic now.

I'd would certainly like to go back to the breed question at hand and explain that I adopted a Catahoula Leopard Dog (bred to have enough "grit" and stubbornness to hunt wild boar) and she was a traumatized Katrina Rescue. The following highlighted characteristics highlighted are, in my opinion, the key to establishing reliable recall.

I think we can agree that I am not an expert on behavioral conditioning or dog breeds. I am completely limited to my own experiences and I know that I am a dog lover who managed to train a traumatized Catahoula and now I find myself loving a Walker-Redbone who has taught me a great deal because of his challenging high energy level and prey drive. I also want to point out that while coonhounds make excellent family dogs who are very friendly with strangers were never bred to be pets. They also hunt alone and are independent, whereas most dogs work in a pack and tend to follow commands as a result of the pack well-being. These types of considerations are also important.

If I am to be honest, my confidence as a dog owner and the standards to which I hold myself have been challenged. My dog has reminded me of how patient I can be (and I have 2 children- one a teenager) and due to my coonhound's energy drive, he's shown me sunrises and sunsets every day that I would ordinarily not make time for and more importantly, this has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my life.I wouldn't trade the lessons he's taught me for anything. And the funny thing is, he is still a puppy and if I am lucky he'll teach me even more about life. He's a happy dog and giving him the best life I know how is a priority and I am lucky to have him. My point is to say that there are so many considerations when choosing a dog and every breed has so many qualities and trade-offs... in all of them are lessons to teach us.