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I know this might be a silly question given the category I'm asking about but I have been thinking of a new dog for the last few years and am very fond of the wire coat and kind of gentlemanly appearance of terrier breeds like
Irish
Airedale, Welsh
etc.
I like knowing I can "whoah" and recall a dog with confidence though. Does anyone have experience if this is a reasonable goal for breeds like those mentioned or similar breed being a little easier to train for this?

I live on a large rural farm and am confident I can introduce most terrier pups to chickens and the cat (I got the cat to respect the chicks) but I have a lot of predators and a lot of forest to get lost in so need a dog that I can work with to respond reliably when I call them back.
 

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Most terriers have strong prey drive, given that's what they were bred for. This means their instinct to track and chase moving creatures can be an issue without intervention.

However, with time and training, any dog can be taught reliable recall and tolerance. I own a terrier myself, and while she has also learnt not to bother the chickens and the cats, she definitely still tries to chase possums, rats and the like. However, if I give the command, she will stop mid-chase and return to me. She still has the instinct but will reliably ignore it when asked.
 

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I'd add, the reward of returning to you has to outweigh the thrill of the hunt.

There's a book about working with your dog's prey drive rather than battling against it, which you might be interested in.

Hunting Together by Simone Mueller.
 

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I have a coonhound puppy (now 9 months old)- I thought I was getting a "Lab-mix".. but no, he's 100% coonhound (Walker-Redbone). - I say this because it wasn't on purpose that I got a dog with a high energy level and a very serious prey drive.

My previous dog was a Catahoula and we consistently had her off-leash and didn't do much training, just started as a puppy. And her recall was SOLID... So, naively I attempted the same with my new dog, and around 6 months, he just bolted off after a cat and I lost him (a kind person found him a couple of miles from my house). At this point, two things became very obvious to me... 1- his prey drive was out of control and this instinct is something you have to manage differently than simple behavior correction 2- he HAS to be off leash in a park or area where it is safe because although I am active and able-bodied, there is NO WAY I could properly exercise him by walking.

I consulted many different people because the reality was if I couldn't come up with a safe way for him to be off-leash, I would have to give him up... which wasn't an option because I love him so much. I watched a number of YouTube videos by various pet trainers and hunters. After this, I decided to get an e-collar despite the controversy (I did a lot of research before I made the decision). And it has been the best tool I could ever imagine. After training him, I always keep it on him for emergencies, but now he responds extremely well to my verbal commands alone (much better than before) and occasionally I vibrate him (not shock)... I have shocked him a couple of times at a low level and he "got" the concept that I give him a command and vibrate him until the moment he follows my command and if he doesn't he gets shocked.

I think there is a misconception that e-collars are a punishment, but I'm not sure people understand when the dog is properly trained (by being rewarded for a proper response to the collar), it can be a sure way to shift the dog's focus from the prey to your command. Even if it is just a beep or a vibration - if properly conditioned - it is enough to get their attention (in my experience)... as I think it is easier for them to ignore noise when they are fully focused on pursuing something.

If you do decide that an e-collar might work for you, I found the Sport Dog YouTube training videos to be extremely helpful. I can also say that I purchased a few inexpensive e-collars from Amazon ($45-$65) and had to return them because after using them on myself only, I learned the timing was way off, the button placement was horrible and use required 2 hands - which you can't do when you're using a leash which is how you introduce the concept and false claims to be waterproof. I ended up going with a basic Dogtra collar and I have heard great things about the Educator collars.

I hope this helps... of course it could be that this doesn't feel like the right solution for you, but for me, it was either this - or not give my dog the chance to have the best life possible with me as his owner - or if I'm lucky maybe he'd show up at a shelter 2 counties away. I fundamentally believe instinct is something you have to manage by shifting their focus and a voice or a piece of cheese (or other highly desirable treat is going to do it. When my dog catches a scent - I know he can't hear a thing. But.. he can feel when his neck vibrates and certainly in an emergency when he is shocked (at a low level - it is static electricity.

Now, if I am to be honest about my biggest struggle with an e-collar is at first it takes a tremendous amount of attention. At first, for the best response, you have to catch your dog at the moment they are contemplating bolting. My dog will freeze, sniff the air for a second, stick his tail up - curled, and then BOLT. The time to call him and vibrate at the same time is while he is "contemplating".
 

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I want to clarify my response. It was only regarding RECALL. Basically, I think you can get most any breed if you use an e-collar and train the dog properly. I want to add that I have almost 100% recall and have only been using it for 3 months (some of it training, mostly just having him wear it and vibrating him). Today, he saw or smelled a doggie-friend in the distance and darted off after him... I called him and he came back.. no need to use the collar because he's been properly conditioned. But.. I still put it on him because you never know.
 

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There's much confusion about e-collars and given their effectiveness, I can understand the thought that any discomfort is the lesser of two evils as compared to a lost dog or one hit by a car. It must be noted that some studies (frontiersin.org) show aversive e-collar training to be less effective than positive training. The Humane Societies' position is that "aversive collars, or collars that rely on physical discomfort or even pain to teach a dog what not to do, are not a humane option. " And while it's worth noting that non aversive e-collars using sound / vibration do exist with the latter used for deaf dog training using, it's been previously stated here that forum rules prohibit promotion of same.

A member of my bike club uses one of those clown nose sounding bike horns for her dogs when out on trail rides, she trained her dogs using it at feeding time, when it's time to get in the car for a bike ride or trip to the dog park .... they hear the horn, see it as a sign of something positive and come a running for their treats, She wants a collar that she can clip a speaker to that duplicates that sound for when they outta range... carries about as far as a typical clicker.


I have heard of walkie talkies being used where one clips a walkie onto a dog harness to relay normal training commands but as walkies tend to be kinds a "squalkie", I dunno that dogs would recognize their owners commands. Some "walkie talkie" collars are available but all also have static stimulation, vibration and tone modes.
 

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I know this might be a silly question given the category I'm asking about but I have been thinking of a new dog for the last few years and am very fond of the wire coat and kind of gentlemanly appearance of terrier breeds like
Irish
Airedale, Welsh
etc.
From those you listed, seems to be the Irish ... that being said, while that may be true "statistically", it's no guarantee that any particular specimen may be at one end of the other of the spectrum

Irish Terrier:
Irish Terriers have a very low prey drive. This means they get along well with other pets.

3/5 Stars - Irish Terriers have average wanderlust potential. Sometimes they like to explore the world and they might escape once or twice, but usually, they prefer staying safely at home. Safer to teach them how to get back to you on command.

Airedale:
Airedale Terriers have a high prey drive. They do not get along well with other pets.
Airedale Terriers have a high tendency to wander. They are easily distracted by other animals or objects.
They are protective over their families and very loving, but they like to do their own thing and choose how their day is going to go. This makes it harder to train an Airedale Terrier so it is advised to begin training as early as possible.

4 / 5 stars - The wanderlust potential of the Airedale Terrier is strong enough to escape from home. They have a strong desire for exploring the world. Safer to walk them on a leash unless you teach them how to get back to you on command.

Welsh:
Welsh Terriers have a high tendency to wander. They are easily distracted by other animals or objects.
Welsh Terriers have a high prey drive.
They do not get along well with other pets.

4/5 Stars - The wanderlust potential of the Welsh Terrier is strong enough to escape from home. They have a strong desire for exploring the world. Safer to walk them on a leash unless you teach them how to get back to you on command.
 

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I read the article and a commentary that pointed out the numerous flaws in the design (linked below) of the study you referenced. I do research for a living and I realize people can argue different points forever, however... given the study group and the nature of the problems (aggression and not prey drive) confounded by the techniques used, it would be hard to relate the article. I'm not interested in starting a debate, but I do think you, or others who may be interested in the topic, should acknowledge the commentary when considering the value of the research.

Frontiers | Commentary: Efficacy of Dog Training With and Without Remote Electronic Collars vs. a Focus on Positive Reinforcement (frontiersin.org)
 

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My advice would be to not only take the prey drive into account but also the dog's trainability because if you choose to use not to use an e-collar, you certainly want a breed that is reliable.... and I hate to say it, but not all dogs are reliable especially coonhounds - I've never experienced anything like them. And their issues are well-known and most would agree with me. The same information is available for all of the breeds.
 

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@Wranglercmd just a reminder this is a non-adversive forum and the promotion of e-collars are not allowed. This way may have 'worked' for you, but there are many other ways to train reliable recall which are a lot more pleasant. Also, obedience is not a genetic trait but a learned ability. Genetics and prey drive play a part in trainability but not obedience, which is the end result of said training. My terrier was hard to train given her short attention span and high prey drive, but she is still obedient given the time I have put into her to find a method that worked for us.

Tagging @JoanneF and @LMMB for their input on the e-collar matter as well.
 

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I would have completely agreed with you - 100%-.I expect my Catahoula was similar to your terrier- hard to train, but eventually, they listen... . I honestly thought I was an expert dog trainer based on how well my dog was trained... but then I got a coonhound. It is something you must experience to understand and again, it is well documented - and the information is available for all breeds. And for this reason, a discussion like this is so useful when considering which dog is the best fit.

The question of genetics and its role in obedience is really a question of how susceptible a dog is to all of the factors that go into learning (and those are genetic).
 

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@Wranglercmd as stated this is a non-aversive forum and promoting e-collars is specifically prohibited in our rules, which members agree to observe when joining.


Several things leap out from your replies.

First, he is only nine months old. His head will be all over the place, like most dogs of that age.

I'm not sure people understand when the dog is properly trained (by being rewarded for a proper response to the collar), it can be a sure way to shift the dog's focus from the prey to your command.
If you can train by rewarding a response to the collar, you can train by rewarding a response to something else. And your e-collar could fail too. A lot of dogs get such an adrenaline high from the chase that they just power through the pain. So, you turn it up a notch. Then, you have to do it again. When do you stop? That's a rhetorical question, this is not a debate and further attempts to justify this type of tool will not be accepted.

consulted many different people because the reality was if I couldn't come up with a safe way for him to be off-leash, I would have to give him up... which wasn't an option because I love him so much.
So, you put your wishes ahead of what was best for the dog.

he HAS to be off leash in a park or area where it is safe because although I am active and able-bodied, there is NO WAY I could properly exercise him by walking.
Secure fields with a perimeter fence? Or maybe training him differently, or participating in an active sport like bikejoring ? Or maybe putting his needs before yours and accepting you are maybe over-dogged?

Anyway, there are alternatives to shock collars - @dierne, please don't follow the advice to get one, there are alternatives that are far kinder.
 

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@Wranglercmd as stated this is a non-aversive forum and promoting e-collars is specifically prohibited in our rules, which members agree to observe when joining.


Several things leap out from your replies.

First, he is only nine months old. His head will be all over the place, like most dogs of that age.



If you can train by rewarding a response to the collar, you can train by rewarding a response to something else. And your e-collar could fail too. A lot of dogs get such an adrenaline high from the chase that they just power through the pain. So, you turn it up a notch. Then, you have to do it again. When do you stop? That's a rhetorical question, this is not a debate and further attempts to justify this type of tool will not be accepted.



So, you put your wishes ahead of what was best for the dog.


Secure fields with a perimeter fence? Or maybe training him differently, or participating in an active sport like bikejoring ? Or maybe putting his needs before yours and accepting you are maybe over-dogged?

Anyway, there are alternatives to shock collars - @dierne, please don't follow the advice to get one, there are alternatives that are far kinder.
I would encourage learning as much as possible on how much technology and training techniques have changed in the past decade. For instance, the term "shock collars" is no longer an accurate or acceptable term as it applies to something other than static energy and older technology.

Clearly, based on the resistance and how far off-base many comments here appear to be, there is an information gathering bias that appears much like ignorance - when information is available and not considered because the choice to remain uneducated on a given topic is made on purpose - repeatedly.
 

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I would encourage learning as much as possible on how much technology and training techniques have changed in the past decade. For instance, the term "shock collars" is no longer an accurate or acceptable term as it applies to something other than static energy and older technology.

Clearly, based on the resistance and how far off-base many comments here appear to be, there is an information gathering bias that appears much like ignorance - when information is available and not considered because the choice to remain uneducated on a given topic is made on purpose - repeatedly.
I HAVE EDITED MY POST- IT TIMED OUT AND I WASN"T ABLE TO AMEND PREVIOUS REPLY

I would encourage learning as much as possible about how technology and training techniques have changed in the past decade. For instance, the term "shock collars" reflects a bias and so does the complete banning of a topic that is not well understood. Before I considered the information, I was depriving my dog of a safe off-leash experience that is necessary with such an energy level. And the person who initiated the question about choosing a breed may very well make a decision based on limited knowledge of all training options as well.

Clearly, based on the resistance and how far off-base many comments here appear to be, there is an information-gathering bias that appears much like ignorance - when information is available and not considered because the choice to remain uneducated on a given topic is made on purpose - repeatedly. Mostly, there is an assumption that I failed to consider other behavioral alternatives when this simply isn't true. I consulted a number of trainers and thought very seriously before making a choice.
 

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there is an information gathering bias that appears much like ignorance - when information is available and not considered because the choice to remain uneducated on a given topic is made on purpose - repeatedly.
We believe there are kinder alternatives to e-collars and there are plenty of studies to back that up.

But, when I said this isn't a debate, I meant it. On this forum, promoting their use is not allowed. Full stop. If that's going to be a problem for you, then perhaps you will find more support on other forums.
 

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Clearly, based on the resistance and how far off-base many comments here appear to be, there is an information-gathering bias that appears much like ignorance - when information is available and not considered because the choice to remain uneducated on a given topic is made on purpose - repeatedly. Mostly, there is an assumption that I failed to consider other behavioral alternatives when this simply isn't true. I consulted a number of trainers and thought very seriously before making a choice.

It really serves no purpose to ignore the rules of this non- aversive forum and then presume to make assumptions of others by implying they are ignorant and/or uneducated. Many of us are well educated and fully aware of how and why those tools work (via suppressing behavior through the infliction of emotional and/or physical discomfort and/or pain) and are strongly opposed to the use of them.
 

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I sincerely apologize and completely understand that I have overstepped the clearly defined and necessary rules that have to be upheld based on the widespread misuse of the technology. I feel that I must retract my statements in support of the goals of this forum which are very much in line with our collective approach and the clear concerns that we have for dogs and the care they receive as well as the fundamentals and consideration of alternatives to anything that may be used improperly and can even (in some cases) be known to "break a dog's spirit". I believe if a person is willing to use the tools without education and experience, these same owners will surely find a way to "break a dog's spirit" in a host of other ways. And the risk of supporting the potential of that in any way must be firmly rejected by a community of educated people whose primary interest must be a dog's wellbeing.

I've seen this misuse directly because I've used horribly designed equipment with obviously no quality control and no person in their right mind would put these cheaply made devices on a dog after using it on themselves. I also think older devices were similar. After testing, I found these particular things to be similar to torture devices, and yet thousands are sold. In my own defense, I believe it is because I care so much about my dog that I have gone to the extent I have to provide a very careful application, which despite belief is not easy for an owner to do and SHOULD NOT BE RECOMMENDED CASUALLY... AND FOR THAT REASON I WAS COMPLETELY OUT OF LINE- and would never want a dog owner to consider these alternatives lightly... simply by reading a recommendation and applying it without using the alternatives that you stand by.

To your point, the dogs in this picture are enjoying off-leash freedom (the Great Dane has a GPS tracker and was trained using only positive reinforcement and the Lab owner has established near-perfect recall). My dog (top left- was a young puppy who would never stray at that point in development). And my intentions were to stress the significant instincts and differences in prey drive and breed selection, which is where the discussion started. As I said, I thought I was getting lab mix and I was initially trying to voice my experience... I was not considering the larger goals of the community. It was stated that I may be "over dogged" and admittedly I certainly was before I sought out as much guidance and informed about as many forms of training as I could and talked to coonhound owners of all types (normal pet trainers, owners, hunters). I also stated, that my dog is trained enough at this point to not require anything aversive which is clearly the preferred way and should have been the point of what I attempted to convey - the challenge of breed selection and lifestyle fit.

I also failed to mention that I walk my dog 3 miles a day (1.5 miles in the morning and 1.5 miles mid-day and I take him to play off-leash for an hour in the evening with other dogs and he spends a great deal of time outside in the yard). I CANNOT UNDERMINE THE VALUE OF EXERCISE- because it was also a change that I made as he got older and that change alone allowed me to access a dog that was more able to be trained effectively.

Please consider this post to over-ride my previous posts - I think it is much more accurate. And, if you see fit - please remove anything I have previously written that you find inappropriate or undesirable for this goals of this forum.
 

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It really serves no purpose to ignore the rules of this non- aversive forum and then presume to make assumptions of others by implying they are ignorant and/or uneducated. Many of us are well educated and fully aware of how and why those tools work (via suppressing behavior through the infliction of emotional and/or physical discomfort and/or pain) and are strongly opposed to the use of them.
You are absolutely correct. I reacted inappropriately in ignorance. Please consider my recent post and understand that it was my error and my fault in the first place for inappropriately communicating the bigger picture. I also took the discussion down a horribly negative and inappropriate path and failed to focus on the needs of the person who initially posed the question and everyone who responded much more appropriately than I did. I started out inspired by the question of breed selection and its importance. Additionally, no one was even mentioning coonhounds before I came along and upset a quality discussion.
 

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I read the article and a commentary that pointed out the numerous flaws in the design (linked below) of the study you referenced. I do research for a living and I realize people can argue different points forever, however... given the study group and the nature of the problems (aggression and not prey drive) confounded by the techniques used, it would be hard to relate the article. I'm not interested in starting a debate, but I do think you, or others who may be interested in the topic, should acknowledge the commentary when considering the value of the research.

Frontiers | Commentary: Efficacy of Dog Training With and Without Remote Electronic Collars vs. a Focus on Positive Reinforcement (frontiersin.org)

Perhaps being a scientist / engineer myself, (it's also what I do for a living) and as such perhaps overlooked or didn't make it clear ... but the point of saying "some studies", I thought it was implied that this is by no means "settled science". Conversely, it also means that the position that e-collars are more effective and worth their emotional and physical toll is also in question. But regardless of the conclusion on training effectiveness, the physical and emotional impacts are rarely considered in the evaluation.
 
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