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Hey everyone,

I am new to this formum and looking for some advice and ideas. My first question is, has anyone ever seen or heard of a bark collar and wireless fence all wrapped up into one device? I have looked at petsmart and chewy to find one but they both came up blank. The person I talk to at petsmart was almost sure that they were out there but couldn't come up with any results. Thanks in advance!

James
 

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Z, Rescue Mutt
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Hi! Please take the time read my whole post- I won't be rude and judgmental if you don't decide to take this advice, but I really think it's important for you and your dog. I may sound a bit angry in this post- rest assured, I don't mean it that way- but the facts just paint it that way- you'll see what I mean, I think. Thanks!

bark collar: your dog's excessive barking is the result of either boredom (try find-the-treats or hide-and-seek and fetch)or lack of physical exercise (walks and fetch) and mental stimulation(trick training, smelling on walks), or is simply your dog trying to communicate(hey look, there's a squirrel outside!). Either way, punishing them with pain is not the best idea (generally). It could do any of these things, and more:
a) cause your dog stress, or even fear. Especially since dogs do not initially make the connection between barking and the shock.
b) cause your dog to bottle up this anxiety, and then all the sudden lash out- even at a time when they are not wearing the collar- with aggression and biting
c) cause your dog to bark, then instantly cower with fear, rather than stopping the problem
d) it could actually worsen the barking problem
Also, it does not address the root cause, only the symptom. The best bet is to find out the cause, and then provide whatever need they have or do training- in a humane way. Plus, that way you aren't hurting your dog and scaring them. I mean, if you think about it, dogs don't "get" that barking is "bad". To their mind, humans "bark" all the time. And barking is a natural method of communicating- it's not fair to totally take that away, instead, it's best to show them how to effectively and appropriately communicate, rather than punishing them for communicating, which is how the dog sees it.
Another important point to consider: there may be a time when you need the dog to bark: first, this could be a warning he wants to bite- your chance to back off. (punishing growls and barks is what often indirectly leads to "out of the blue" dog bites/ attacks. Second, what if there's an intruder? You'll want your dog to alert you. yes? This is why teaching appropriate self-control is better.

Quick note on shock: when people say "try it on your own neck, you'll see it's ok!", that's flawed for 2 reasons. 1. The human epidermis is more than 3x as thick as the canine epidermis. Second- you know it's coming. Your dog doesn't understand why, or anticipate when, it's coming, especially at first. Shock should be used only very minimally in extreme cases, on low settings, by professionals, applied by remote, not automatic sensors- if at all.

electric fence: I have actually seen cases where this makes the dog afraid to go outside. In less extreme cases, it just makes them enjoy it less. If at all possible, build a fence. If not, try recall training and long leads whenever you can go with, or consider a tie out or trolley for when you can't. Again, the dog makes a different connection. The human thinks, "ok, this will teach my dog he shouldn't leave the boundary". The dog thinks that "every time I get near this area, I feel pain". And since dogs don't get human customs and rules, this is just confusing and scary to them. Plus, as with any device that gives a shock, there is the chance of sparking aggression or causing anxiety.

A method that teaches your dog what you want them to do and how to please you, instead of causing pain whenever they- unknowingly- do something you consider "bad" will have better results, although it may take more patience. It will also improve your bond and communication, helping with other areas of behavior and obedience. It is the safer approach- for both the dog and the human. Plus, dogs are smart- they often stop behaving if they aren't wearing the collar- it suppresses the behavior when it's on, but what happens if the collar is dead, and you have to charge it? Besides, wouldn't you rather a dog who listens to you, not a to a device?

Modern science actually shows that pain-free training is better- pain-based training is an outdated approach. Even the police and military- super high level training involved there- is switching, slowly but surely, to positive techniques. it just works better.

I would imagine these devices exist. But, you may not get a lot of help here, as this is the "positive" forum, and most users are against those tools- for good reason. If you are 100% convinced this is necessary, try dogforums.com. (forums in the plural).

If you want any help, tips, or advice on how to train your dog to stay on property or not bark using less painful methods, or train anything else- anyone here would be happy to help, myself included. Thanks, and good luck! :)
 

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Hey everyone,

I am new to this formum and looking for some advice and ideas. My first question is, has anyone ever seen or heard of a bark collar and wireless fence all wrapped up into one device? I have looked at petsmart and chewy to find one but they both came up blank. The person I talk to at petsmart was almost sure that they were out there but couldn't come up with any results. Thanks in advance!

James
Sorry, but it's against forum rules to promote the use of aversives, therefore we can't answer you post. Anyone trying to recommend such a product would have their post deleted and receive a warning, followed by a ban if they persisted.

However, just FYI, dogs have died from the use of both of these devices. One was kept in its garden, wearing a shock collar. Its owner went out, leaving the dog out during a thunderstorm. The e-collar short-circuited and shocked the dog to death.

Then there was another one in which the dog repeatedly went to board-and-train places which used the e-collar. Showed the owners how to use it. The dog became so aggressive to literally everyone who wasn't its owner that by the time the owners decided to go to Victoria Stillwell of It's Me or the Dog fame, it bit her. Repeatedly and severely. To the point where she recommended the owners have the dog euthanised. If you Google it, it's on her blog.

As for a e-fences. This member joined up purely to war people like you against them. Please read;
 

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On this forum, promotion of aversive devices is prohibited, so nobody will be able to recommend anything.

Please don't use electric shock devices.

One of the easiest ways of teaching your dog not to bark is to get a yoghurt pot and smear the inside with wet dog food, meat paste or squeezy cheese.

When he barks, get him to lick it, he can't lick and bark at the same time. As he is licking, use a word you will later use as a cue word - like ”quiet”. After a number of times (depending how consistent you are and how quickly your dog picks things up) you can use your cue word to tell your dog to stop barking and use the yoghurt pot as a reward. After he is reliably stopping barking on cue, you can fade the reward.
 

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Quick note on shock: when people say "try it on your own neck, you'll see it's ok!", that's flawed for 2 reasons. 1. The human epidermis is more than 3x as thick as the canine epidermis. Second- you know it's coming. Your dog doesn't understand why, or anticipate when, it's coming, especially at first. Shock should be used only very minimally in extreme cases, on low settings, by professionals, applied by remote, not automatic sensors- if at all.
I tell people that, and I don't think it is flawed.

1). Because people in general have no intention of doing so, which I hope causes them to stop and think.

2) . I tell them to give the remote to someone else -, rendering your second point obsolete.

3). People who do try it, usually do it against their hands.
 

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I cannot imagine there is ever a situation where shocking a dog is an 'appropriate' thing to do - regardless of the 'intensity' of the shock.
There are those who use and will defend their choice saying 'It doesn't hurt.' - Firstly: we should never presume to decide for our dogs what hurts them and what does not.
Secondly: It does hurt (emotionally and/or physically) that is why it works.

We should keep in mind that how we teach, is just as important (if not more-so) as what we teach, and it 'matters' to our dogs.
 

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I would argue that they are never necessary.
I personally agree. However, a lot of experienced trainers know how to make a good case for the minimal use of them (not to say I agree with them, just that they argue well)- so I just make a point to never say never. But I will never put one on my dog, or recommend it to anyone else. I will also always encourage people not to use them, and will make my case to anyone who will listen. But you can't convince everyone, and I never say never. (this is why I added "if at all")

By the way, to @LMMB , I do see that it's a valuable way to convince many owners not to do it- but I have actually seen a lot of trainers try it on themselves to make "propaganda" videos- showing how they can take the shock with no reaction, or that they barely feel it, or whatever. So for individual owners that strategy may work- but since there are videos where trainers demonstrate how it "barely hurts", I just wanted to give those facts to make the point that it's a totally different category. I like what @CachetheBC said :Emotionally and/or physical pain- that's a good point
 

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bark collar [...] could do any of these things, and more:
e) dog starts biting people without warning. Normal dogs may bark & growl to warn you: "Stop it or I will bite!" Just because painful electric shocks has taught them not to make a sound, it doesn't mean it's taught them not to bite. Since people are bad at picking up clues that they're upsetting the dog, they will (1) upset the dog, (2) keep provoking the dog, and when the dog strikes back by biting without warning them off first, (3) claim they were attacked without provocation. That would be all thanks to the shock collar.
 

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I had an Akita pitbull for eleven years. Akitas are silent and don't bark or growl much. He bit several dogs and people without any warning. No one ever used a shock collar on him. He did bark at noises at the door or if someone threatening went by the car with us in it. He preferred to silently attack though.
Some dogs just aren't naturally vocal due to breed tendencies.
 

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I had an Akita pitbull for eleven years. Akitas are silent and don't bark or growl much. He bit several dogs and people without any warning. No one ever used a shock collar on him. He did bark at noises at the door or if someone threatening went by the car with us in it. He preferred to silently attack though.
Some dogs just aren't naturally vocal due to breed tendencies.
I get what you mean- in a dog like that, you need to be especially careful to watch for other, more subtle signs: progressing something like: Licking their lips, tucking the tail down or lowering it, showing the whites of their eyes, laying ears back, crouching (almost imperceptibly) lower or lowering the head, tensing up, showing teeth in a "smile", baring the teeth, etc. However, dogs do not ever bite completely out of nowhere- there will be some warning sign, it's up to the humans to watch for it. (Except for in the case of a mental illness) But if you have a dog that does growl, that gives you an extra "safety net", in case you missed the initial signs, so if you are "lucky" enough to have a dog willing to growl and tell you it's concerned, it should never be punished, it should be respected.
 
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