[Shananigan]

Hello Well, I apologize for having an unbearably long thread! It seems they all turn out that way (although I will say, this probably has to be my longest!!!). I was going to say in the topic (long is an understatement) but then I was afraid no one would click on it! haha To skip down to the actual questions about dog careers, just scroll down to the 3rd post. The rest is just background info. (oh my..) Thank you!

I am seventeen years old, going on eighteen at the end of the month. Of course, when growing up you have a list of what you aspired to be. For me, whenever asked what I wanted to be when I grew up, the answer was "Veterinarian". Hands down, not much thought too it. More specifically, I wanted to be a large animal vet so that I could work with horses. Horses have always been my passion since four years old.

In my freshmen year of high-school, however, I became more concerned with what I was actually gonna do when I got older.

I'll tell you why...

A close family friend of ours started a computer business. He talked about getting myself, his son, and another kid set up in the business. We could start sooner rather than later, by the time we were 18 -we could already be making more money then a lot of people, let alone 18 year olds. We'd have a jump start on life.

Well, I knew what my view on all of this was... Pssssh, I don't want to be stuck behind a computer all day! I wanna work with animals!!!! I want to be outside!! Obviously! And I put my foot down, I was not interested AT ALL. Period.

My dad, however, didn't think I should shut the idea off so quickly. He pushed the idea. --Nope, sorry dad, not going for it! I stuck to my guns. Plus, I seriously doubted this whole idea was even gonna lift off the ground. I mean, come on. I live on the west coast and our friend is on the east coast! How's that gonna work?! onder:

Time went by, however, and I was able to brew on the idea. I started seeing valid points.

• Hey, a major goal of mine is to see the world. I could do this work from anywhere I have internet!
• I do enjoy working on the computer and I do have skills with a computer. I could see myself learning this.
• It does make good money. This job would easily support my love for animals (both horse and canine). I could even work a few years, save enough money, then just drop out and start my own business! (I've always wanted to run a business with animals, but not until I get a bit older.)
• Since the animal world is a hard field to get into, this would give me a fall back job.

Hey, waddaya know, this opportunity was actually starting to look pretty appealing to me! Especially since my views on becoming a "Veterinarian" were starting to fall apart.



Okay, I'm game for it now! What do I have to do?


I did my freshmen year in home-school, but I decided to go back to public high-school my sophomore year. I missed my friends. Half-way through my sophomore year, I decided I wanted to give this computer gig a shot. So, after my first semester of public high-school, I went back to home-school. It wasn't going to be for long though, because I was going to take the C.H.S.P.E. (equivalent to a GED, however in California you can't take a GED till your 18). Get out of high-school, go to the east coast, and get my career on!!! :thumbsup: Woo!!! Easy, right? Well yes, up to a point.



I took my C.H.S.P.E. and passed with flying colors. I was planning on passing this, going to the east coast, then taking my GED there to stay outta high-school. Our friend would teach me the tricks of his trade, I would work in his company, eventually get a degree in college, life would be grand, ect...


Well, to be honest, I'm not sure what happened. Once I passed the C.H.S.P.E. --it all fell apart. My dad suddenly didn't seem so supportive anymore and the whole thing came crashing down around me. I don't know if he realized that I was really doing this and could be gone soon or what. I'm not blaming it on him, because I could have stepped-up and got some answers. Figured things out, fixed the plan -but I didn't. Like I said, the plan almost literally vanished over-night. We didn't talk about it, it was awkward whenever we talked about my future (it still is actually), our friend was confused. I mean, I didn't have the plane ticket over there or anything, but I was working on it.


I don't know, after this, I fell into this depressed, confused sort of state. I mean, life carried on of course. Yet, it is always weighing on me. It still is actually, hence why I posted this thread. It's a constant nagging in the back of my mind. I decided to just finish out HS and get my diploma, which looks better than a CHSPE or GED because why not? I didn't have anything else going for me.



I feel like I let this event sap all my energy. My motivation to get started early in a career; to have a head start, hit the ground running. It also saddens me because I've let this consume the last few years of my life. I've had no idea what I want to do. (Except some ideas with horses, see notes below) If I had recovered faster or handled it differently, life could have been quite different.


~*~*~*~*~*Horse Side Note*~*~*~*~*~
Besides computers, only a couple different career options have entered my head. Working with horses or working with dogs.



I have mainly looked into working with horses. Because of past experiences, I could see myself working on a dude ranch. (I have quite a bit of experience guiding public trail rides and of the outdoors period.) I love guiding trail rides and giving people the outdoor adventure experience. When looking into this career more, I found that this job pays very little money and just how seasonal it was. Which, I know is the case with most animal careers (little money). However, you spend a summer working and living on this ranch. At the end of the season, you need to go. You have no home, no job, and $5000-$8000 to live the rest of the 6 or more months to live off of. For me, this is a little more unstable than I'd like. (I can see myself working a summer or two at a ranch sometime, but I can't make a career that would satisfy me out of it).


Next Idea: Horse trainer. I've had horses steadily since I was 8 years old, and have been taking lessons since 5-6 years old. I know and absolutely LOVE HORSES. I could start a business, boarding and training. This satisfies what I'm looking for in a career. Only one problem, after this summer, I have found I'm not sure I enjoy breaking horses to ride. Even after the BEST EXPERIENCE possible with training horses. (Broke my filly Sasha this summer under a real professional friend's guidance. She never once tried to get me off her back. It was such a positive experience!) Yet I still get a little nervy for a bit when getting on her back because she is so green, and that is even after she has treated me so kindly. I'm lucky she loves me, cause a lot of green horses would have felt my nerves and probably be like Bye bye!! -buck- With time, I could probably become more confident, but the horse business is a very hard and VERY EXPENSIVE business to break into which I don't have the money to do.



I will say, I do love working with them on the ground, especially foals!!! De-sensitizing, building trust, halter breaking, lunging, tricks ect... :thumbsup: I am totally comfortable with horses on the ground and on their backs. Just when I'm sure they're not going to try and get one over on me. (Had a bad overall experience with an unpredictable previous horse, and I think this is why I get nervous now).

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~



You know, if I really wanted, I could still pursue this option. He told me himself, when you are 18 we'll talk. Yet, it is not the opportunity that I feel it once was. My friend has now built a booming business. His life is now extremely busy, and if I tried to wiggle my way in there now -I would feel as if I were being quite the burden to him


I didn't fight for that life though, and this thread is about letting go of the past and embracing the future...



I want to think of it now as: "Hey, maybe fate intercepted a bad call. If I really wanted that life, I would have fought harder for it."



So here it is, I want to start a new chapter in life. Chapter 1 "The NEW Beginning".

 

[Shananigan]

I love communicating with animals. That spark of recognition you see when they understand a concept you are trying to teach. This is what has drove me to teach my animals not only basic obedience, but tricks as well. It seems the older I get, I have realized, the more I want to teach my animals. For instance:


I taught my border collie Ace first. I taught him obedience: Sit, stay, lay down, stop (to freeze wherever he is), on and off leash manners, heel, shake, and we're working on spin.



Marlie was the second, I got her 2 years after Ace: I taught her all of the basic obedience as above, but I have also taught her how to shake, spin, and roll over.


Trick wise, Sasha (my filly) I have taught so far how to take a bow down on one knee with her head touching the ground. Along with breaking her this summer. I plan on also working with her with a variety of other tricks.



I love it!


These are just the tricks I myself have learned to teach, I would love to teach them more!



While Marlie and Ace are not my first dogs, they are my first dogs that I have put work into to have obedient well rounded dogs. I absolutely love working with them!



Since I do enjoy working with and seem to get along well with animals and people (of course there are those people that I can make exceptions for), I could really see myself being a dog trainer. And, eventually, one day even a horse trainer or at least giving people lessons. (I do enjoy giving people horse-back riding lessons also, in the times I have done it).


Here's where you guys come in.. I'm sure too those of you who have read the entire thread (if any) are ready to do something similar to this.


So I will ask you. What steps could I take to become a professional dog trainer? I really want to learn positive reinforcement and clicker training.



Because I have to confess something... I have loosely followed the ways of "dominance based" behavior training. I said it, it's out.. Over the last few weeks and reading up on clicker training, the DF training sticky's / threads, and various other resources I do see that there is no need for dominance methods. I will say though, not ALL my training was dominance based. I am not some Caesar Milan guru and I did use A LOT of positive reinforcement in my training. I didn't see every little thing the dog does as trying to be "the alpha". I always make sure to use lots of praise for the good. I will admit again I have punished for the bad (potty in the house -cringe-, trash -cringe-, not listening -cringe-). Never anything catastrophic, but any punishment for the wrong behavior means you, the human, are in the WRONG and I see that now. My dogs love and respect me, but I want to turn to 100% positive training now and only strengthen our bond. I wasn't aware of how effective and beautiful the new training techniques are now. And I want to start fresh!!!


So please, help me turn this new leaf in training!! I get the basics, but I have A LOT to learn! And I know I won't ever be able to learn it all, but I want to start my learning process now!

 

[Shananigan]

Whether I turn dog training into my career, is yet to be 100% determined. I am, however, 100% determined to learn the training techniques of positive re-enforcement and clicker training, regardless because I will always have dogs! And horses for that matter too!!! (Not that I use dominance theory with horses, but I LOVE this clicker training idea! I've had such misconceptions about clicker training!)


With this being said what are some good resources on learning to use positive re-inforcement training and clicker training? If I were to become a trainer, what steps should I take and what certifications are prudent? I have looked into the CCPDT organization (Certification Council For Professional Dog Trainers).
I have only heard of the AKC and another certification (ADPTA) or something along those lines I can't find it.. Could you tell me how reputable each of these certifications are? I know training is not based on just by the certifications you carry, but by experience as well. I'm just wondering what are some of the more reputable certifications out there?

I would mainly want to train obedience classes first. After gaining more extensive experience with that, I would really love to help solve behavior problems with dogs (ie. Aggression, barking, destructive-ness, ect..). Another thing that REALLY interests me is detection dogs. I would love to work with and train Arson dogs!
I've seen a suggestion on how to gain experience in the dog training field. Since, a lot of these certifications require so many hours of training, 3-4 client references along with veterinary references ect.. What is your guys opinion on starting off as a Petsmart trainer? I know those businesses have terrible training programs and really don't care about the dogs. However, if I could do some work and studying (until I was comfortable with taking on a class), then land a job there -I could use those hours as references AND it would start to help build a client base.


My overall goal, if I entered the dog training world, would to one day be this:

Have my own indoor/outdoor business (which may or may not be ran from home) where I can board and train dogs. I would also do in-home sessions as well. I would love to have a groomer (or maybe learn to groom myself) to add to the mix. If ran from home I would probably also board horses as well. I would love to have a big fenced in outdoor area where dogs could run and play all that energy out. Also, have my property big enough to work with detection dogs. I would like to have a program where I took problematic rescue dogs and turned their life around. Train them and find them a new home. And possibly (I'm not sure I should even say this) breed GSD's. WAIT, don't cut my throat yet please, I wouldn't be doing it for money. Just to purely improve the breed. So many GSD's out there have genetic disorders from backyard breeders -it makes me very sad. I would love to get a pair of certified healthy GSD's (no hip-dysplasia, ect..) and better the breed. Also, I would use selected puppies in an detection dog program. Of course I would back all my puppies up for life and be a responsible breeder.
...You know, I just read that and that's a TALL order to fill. I believe though, if I put my mind too it, and I find it is really truly my calling in life. I have no doubt I could fulfill all those dreams!
Please, any and all information / references would be HIGHLY APPRECIATED!!! Thank you DF for existing!!

**Disclaimer, I cannot pay the medical bills if your eyes fall out of your head after reading any or all of this thread. I can, and will however, thank you for reading this post and sincerely apologize for any permanent damage you may have incurred**

 

[Tess]

Start reading voraciously. There is a reading list somewhere on the forum i am sure you can find it. First book I would rec to you is Karen Pryor " don't shoot the dog".

You have loads of time so no hurry. Stay in school while you study dog training on the side. I know you feel like almost an adult, but it is also ok to give yourself a little more time to grow up before launching out on your own. Like fine wine and good cheese, time helps.
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[DLo]

I don't think much of big box store trainers. I'm not sure how they 'certify' their trainers but when I looked into training with both PetSmart and PetCo I was not impressed. One could not answer my questions and the other had an abrasive personally to the point I walked away. The huge part of being a dog trainer is to work with the OWNERS to train their dog. I was very fortunate to find a trainer who has an animal science background including animal behavior and ethology. I would go out into the field, talk to independent trainers and possible work into a mentoring position. In the meantime, as Tess has already suggested read up on the subject. Plenty of great books on the topic are available.

 

[Criosphynx]

Ccpdt requires xyz amount of hours as a HEAD trainer and passing an exam. I have not heard of the other cert you mention so its either foreign or worthless probably

Personally I think book smarts should come before hand on, that way you arent ruining any dogs as you learn...I read dozens of GOOD books and attended many seminars before I ever took money from people as a trainer.

Train your own dog. Find a trainer you look up to and look at their dog, find one that impresses you. Now train your dog to that level. I also advocate rescuing or volunteering at a shelter if you want to do behavior mod. BM is not the same as training. Its good to have skills in both places because you will get crossover questions if not clients

Its a hard industry to break into. Be prepared. Wait until you are 110% sure you can answer anything before you try is my advice and the path I took. Nothing is more embarrassing than being stumped so study up.
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[Shananigan]

Start reading voraciously. There is a reading list somewhere on the forum i am sure you can find it. First book I would rec to you is Karen Pryor " don't shoot the dog".

You have loads of time so no hurry. Stay in school while you study dog training on the side. I know you feel like almost an adult, but it is also ok to give yourself a little more time to grow up before launching out on your own. Like fine wine and good cheese, time helps.

I do love to read, so this won't be a problem!! I have heard a lot about this book, I wish it was a kindle book because I want it now! I have to order it though and wait for it in the mail. I guess this will just work on my patience though. I am definitely staying in school, I only have 2 1/2 more months until I graduate. I am also looking into the community college, I don't really have the money to afford a big fancy college. Especially with the times right now, I don't want to be buried in student loans for most of my life. It's a fine line. I love that wine and cheese comment, it helps bring me down to earth a bit. When I think about this stuff I get wound up and excited!:happydance:

I don't think much of big box store trainers. I'm not sure how they 'certify' their trainers but when I looked into training with both PetSmart and PetCo I was not impressed. One could not answer my questions and the other had an abrasive personally to the point I walked away. The huge part of being a dog trainer is to work with the OWNERS to train their dog. I was very fortunate to find a trainer who has an animal science background including animal behavior and ethology. I would go out into the field, talk to independent trainers and possible work into a mentoring position. In the meantime, as Tess has already suggested read up on the subject. Plenty of great books on the topic are available.

I don't think very highly of them either. I have read on how they certify them. It's bogus, they don't really teach them anything about training dogs. And you can apply without ANY previous dog experience. Never owned a dog, interacted with a dog, NO EXPERIENCE. I've heard they're all about "marketing" in the class. Then you spend like a day or two with the head trainer for your area (which may or may not be hours away from the store you are actually applying for). Watch a couple classes and TA-DA!!! Your suddenly a dog trainer!:thumbsup:onder::headshake: Yeah, okay!

I was mentioning it just for the fact that after I've done a lot of studying, I could possibly use it as a stepping stone for training hours for certification, references, and building a client base. Not to have them teach me anything. (Not saying I'd know it all, you can never know everything. Just saying, they don't really teach you anything when it comes to training dogs.) Who knows though, maybe getting seen as a trainer in one of those stores may hurt one's reputation! **Note** All the things I mentioned about becoming a Petsmart / Petco trainer is just what I have heard. I haven't had any experience in it myself.

Thank you, for replying. I am looking into local trainers. In fact, through a school course, I am assigned to set up a Job Shadow! Their is a positive re-enforcement trainer that is along the lines of what I am looking for in my area. She also does seminars and teachs / certifies dog CPR and basic first aid! That would be something good to get under my belt! I am going to do more research on a few other trainers in my area (not a huge selection, I live in a rural area). But so far she has been my pick! I'll keep you guys updated on how that goes!

When it comes to working with people, I am fairly confident that I could handle -even enjoy it. I do like working with people and strengthening their bond with animals. I have worked with people riding horses for the first time. I have also witnessed those stubborn people who ask for your advice and help, you give it, and they just keep going like you didn't say anything because apparently "they know it all!!!". And inside your like :headbash:... But you gotta keep that smile on your face and roll with the flow.

Ccpdt requires xyz amount of hours as a HEAD trainer and passing an exam. I have not heard of the other cert you mention so its either foreign or worthless probably

Personally I think book smarts should come before hand on, that way you arent ruining any dogs as you learn...I read dozens of GOOD books and attended many seminars before I ever took money from people as a trainer.

Train your own dog. Find a trainer you look up to and look at their dog, find one that impresses you. Now train your dog to that level. I also advocate rescuing or volunteering at a shelter if you want to do behavior mod. BM is not the same as training. Its good to have skills in both places because you will get crossover questions if not clients

Its a hard industry to break into. Be prepared. Wait until you are 110% sure you can answer anything before you try is my advice and the path I took. Nothing is more embarrassing than being stumped so study up.

Is the ccpdt a more reputable certification? It's hard to tell, you know every certification organization says theirs is the BEST. What happens at seminars? I've never been to one for anything, not that I'm aware of at least. Are they just demonstrations? Speeches? I am working on finding a mentor trainer, it's a bit hard in such a rural area though. I do have one in mind however!

What do you do when helping at shelters? Once I've done much more studying and am feeling more confident in tackling behavior modification -can you volunteer training time at a shelter? Would they allow you to come in and work with their dogs that have behavior issues? I would love to be able to, get rescue dogs, train them, then find forever homes. Not for money, just to save a life and give myself more experience. (Of course, after I've done a lot of studying and previous training).

Thank you guys for the advice!!!

And I found the certification I was talking about! Actually it was a post by you and your certification. apdt! (Sorry, I sorta slaughtered the abbreviation above!)

Thank you guys for the advice!!! I did start searching through more threads and just found a TON of videos and book references -wow! I wanna check them all out right now, but I'm beat. I just realized it's almost midnight! So, I must postpone my adventure and continue tomorrow!

 

[Tess]

Your enthusiasm will carry you a long way. Get on Facebook and start following the really great trainers out there like Emily larlham (kikopup). In addition to reading you can learn loads from watching the master trainers on u tube.

There is nothing wrong with community college. You get out of your education what you put into it and clearly you are super motivated.
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[Shananigan]

Your enthusiasm will carry you a long way. Get on Facebook and start following the really great trainers out there like Emily larlham (kikopup). In addition to reading you can learn loads from watching the master trainers on u tube.

Thank you! And thanks for the subscribing tid bit!! I just subscribed! It amazes me how trainers like Ceaser Millan get so much attention from the media -but people like Emily Larlham aren't mentioned (at least that I've been aware of?). And I find it interesting, Emily does TONS of these FREE videos on YouTube just trying to help people out there have better relationships with their dogs. Where as Ceaser Millian.. Think you could get your hands on ANY of his training material for free? At least free material that HE PROMOTED. (I mean, not that I would want to.)

Just saying, it shows you the mentality of the trainers: Millan is in it more for the money and glory.. He trains the dogs out of fear and pain based methods because he doesn't care. Kikopup is in it for the dogs, which is what it is all about. She is trying to spread this knowledge as far and wide as she can and help the dogs. Not see how many viewers she got on last weeks episode and how much money she can squeeze out of the people. I think the title "Dog Whisperer" needs to be given to Emily Larlham she actually communicates and builds a relationship with her dogs. "Dog Suppressor" can be saved for Millan's honorary title. /rant haha sorry

There is nothing wrong with community college. You get out of your education what you put into it and clearly you are super motivated.

Thank you very much. And I 100% agree with you on education! I'm one of those people who -if I'm not into, I have a difficult time pursuing it (the computers). I'll get it done, but it probably won't be to the best of my ability. When I want something though, good luck trying to keep it from me! I am a person that believes You CAN make your dreams come true. It won't always, if ever, be easy and it'll take time to get there, but there is always a way. Yes, it sounds corny. It's a bit on the cliche side. But you know what? For a good reason, because it's true!

I found another thread with a Book Recommendations thread! In fact here is the list the Crios actually posted!

I personally own and recommend these.

Don't Shoot the Dog Karon Pryor

Culture Clash Jean Donaldson

Other end of the leash Patricia McConnel

Oh behave! Jean Donaldson

Controlled Unleashed Leslie Mcdevitt (for reactive dogs)

Mine! By Jean Donaldson (for resource guarding)

Dogs, a Startling New Understanding Of Canine Origin and Behavior By Raymond and Lorna Coppinger

The Power of Positive Dog Training By Pat Miller

For the love of a Dog Patricia Mcconnell



I haven't read these personally but they are recommended often

How to Behave so your dog Behaves Dr. Sophia Yin DVM

Before and After getting your puppy Dr. Ian Dunbar.

Calming Signals Turgid Rugaas

I'm on Amazon now, I think I could order 2 or 3 of these books right now. I'm definitely getting "Don't Shoot the Dog". I've got to pick out 2 other ones though. -head smack- which is going to be difficult because I happen to be a slightly indecisive person when it comes to these things. Any suggestions for the first couple books? I was thinking Culture Clash (or On the other end of the leash) AND The Power of Positive Training (or Dogs, a startling new understanding of canine origin and behavior).... OR any of the rest of them... haha joking -kinda (incase you haven't noticed, "slightly indecisive" is a bit of an understatement)

 

[Tess]

Emily is one of my heroes. (Crio is another... Listen and learn from her when ever you can!)

I have read most of the books on that list, and still I am a novice. Putting it all to practice is the next step for me. I am not trying to be a pro like Emily or Crio, but just trying to learn enough to work with my challenging dogs.

My main job is teaching high school science to wonderful folks your age.
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[Criosphynx]

The apdt is a trainer organization. Its not a cert. You pay $100 a year and your a member

The ccpdt is reputable imo but joe blow doesnt care about certs or know they exist or which are crap etc etc. Only other dog trainers care generally unless you are hoping to train for serious clients or sport clients in which I believe its ness. You will, unless you get super lucky, be training basic ob or puppy stuff to average members of the public, who will not care about certs.
I didny renue my apdt membership since I found it not worth the $100. It got me two clients and one went with another trainer before I could even return her call and the others issue was so silly I just gave her a free phone consult. A new trainer startig a new bussiness might have better luck or use for it.
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[Shananigan]

Emily is one of my heroes. (Crio is another... Listen and learn from her when ever you can!)

I have read most of the books on that list, and still I am a novice. Putting it all to practice is the next step for me. I am not trying to be a pro like Emily or Crio, but just trying to learn enough to work with my challenging dogs.

My main job is teaching high school science to wonderful folks your age.

I believe I am starting to share your sentiments! Over the last couple days I've been watching Kikopup videos and reading up here in the DF (Crios and other great contributors posts) and I'm like -mind blown- haha :thumbsup:

Oh wow, you've read them all? That's great! Now practice makes perfect right? I'd like to read all of them too, then practice with my animals first also (I've got plenty!). 3 dogs, 2 horses, a cat, a fish, and a bird. I am excited to work with a clicker with my dogs, but also with my horses and bird too! I think it will be a great aid with my filly that I'm training.

Like the last week or two we've been working on going through puddles. (She loves water out of a hose and playing in her water bucket, but is afraid of puddles.) I think using the clicker with desensitizing is going to be a HUGE help. She's a pretty solid trusting horse (I've had her since she was born) but these puddles are giving us a little run for our money. -I will say though, she was crossing the puddle with me pretty comfortably in our last session. I think the clicker will give her a better definite reward though when she is 'in' the puddle. onder:

Your a high-school teacher -that's cool! Thank you for taking your time to answer my thread. What grade do you teach?

The apdt is a trainer organization. Its not a cert. You pay $100 a year and your a member

The ccpdt is reputable imo but joe blow doesnt care about certs or know they exist or which are crap etc etc. Only other dog trainers care generally unless you are hoping to train for serious clients or sport clients in which I believe its ness. You will, unless you get super lucky, be training basic ob or puppy stuff to average members of the public, who will not care about certs.
I didny renue my apdt membership since I found it not worth the $100. It got me two clients and one went with another trainer before I could even return her call and the others issue was so silly I just gave her a free phone consult. A new trainer startig a new bussiness might have better luck or use for it.

I see! Thank you for the information, I won't worry about things of that nature then for now. I could see the ccpdt maybe being something I'd be into in the future, but it doesn't sound worth much too me now!

I wanna ask you guys, this is not the trainer I've been looking into shadowing. Although it is one of the few that has a base in my area. They seem to be a pretty big operation based out of many states. I wanted to ask, if you had time, what this trainer sounded like to you. I'm not sure if I like them. They are pretty full of themselves and I can't figure out what kind of training techniques they use. They make it sound like they don't use force, but they say they don't use anything treat based either. Paired with their arrogance I'm kinda like... onder:hmmm... Is this "I'm the best trainer in the world" attitude regular in the dog training world?

 

[Shananigan]

Oh wow... I guess it helps if actually POST the link I want you guys to check out huh?

You know, scratch what I said above. (And I'm sure there are plenty trainers out there with the "I'm the best" attitude whether they are good or not) I don't know what to think of these trainers, I just re-read their website. Just let me know what you think!

Here's the link!!

http://www.superdog.com/superdog_philosophy.htm

 

[ZoesMom]

The link you posted, the person repeatedly says the photos are the proof, "look at all the happy dogs". I don't see all the dogs being happy. A lot of them have ears back with worried expressions. As if they are being intimidated into staying where they are.

I think this person could possibly be a Cesar Milan (or cesar salad if you hang out here long enough)wannabe.

 

[Shananigan]

The link you posted, the person repeatedly says the photos are the proof, "look at all the happy dogs". I don't see all the dogs being happy. A lot of them have ears back with worried expressions. As if they are being intimidated into staying where they are.

I think this person could possibly be a Cesar Milan (or cesar salad if you hang out here long enough)wannabe.

Yes, that's probably what is making me so iffy about them. They talk all highly of themselves, but the dogs (especially that fawn colored hound) look depressed. I wasn't sure if it was just me though! Thank you for replying!

 

[Tess]

That is not the training program I think you want to mentor in.., looks very Cesar-ish to me, or a variation thereof that is claiming to be different, but in reality is still negative reinforcement based. Some clues are words they use such as "winning psychologically" and "respect" and "leadership". These are all euphemisms for dominance based theory. Also they poo-poo treats as "bribery," illustrating they do not understand Positive Reinforcement or operant conditioning or learning theory.

I teach 9 through 12, biology, chemistry, climate science, stuff like that! I really enjoy teaching and working with teenagers. You all keep me young and make sure I do not take life too seriously. . It's hard not to have fun and laugh a lot with young people and puppies... My two favorite kinds of people.

As far as books go, Don't shoot the dog is probably the one to start with, then maybe a Jean Donaldson then maybe Sophia Yin. Once you get those under your belt you will be able to evaluate trainers to see if they are the kind you want to learn from.
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[instyle]

The superdog website won't load on my phone. Where is the person located??
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[Criosphynx]

I dont even need to look at the link. Any trainer that doesnt shout "positive" from the rooftops on their site is doing to be yank and crank or a version there of..You shouldnt have to decode or figure out their style

Also beware of "positive" trainers that really arent. Make sure you go watch classes before you commit to anything. I actually walked away froma treat and clicker class because they kept yanking and spraying a reactive shnauzer.
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[Tess]

I looked more extensively at the site later. Lots of emphasis on prolonged down-stays of an hour, heeling behind the owner, and humans eating meals first and so on. Also they announced that wild dogs live in packs based on dominance led by an alpha dog who gets there by strength... As Crio says, the same old, same old tired worn out and scientifically dis-proven stuff.

Lots and lots of photos of dogs on down stays, looking fairly supressed, but the caption talking about how happy they are.
Sigh....

Oh, and a story with pictures about a JRT who acts as a life guard, is concerned about dogs in the water, and wants the labrador to get out of the pool, and shows this by biting the lab's ear. It was very confusing!

 

[Shananigan]

hat is not the training program I think you want to mentor in.., looks very Cesar-ish to me, or a variation thereof that is claiming to be different, but in reality is still negative reinforcement based. Some clues are words they use such as "winning psychologically" and "respect" and "leadership". These are all euphemisms for dominance based theory. Also they poo-poo treats as "bribery," illustrating they do not understand Positive Reinforcement or operant conditioning or learning theory.

I teach 9 through 12, biology, chemistry, climate science, stuff like that! I really enjoy teaching and working with teenagers. You all keep me young and make sure I do not take life too seriously. . It's hard not to have fun and laugh a lot with young people and puppies... My two favorite kinds of people.

As far as books go, Don't shoot the dog is probably the one to start with, then maybe a Jean Donaldson then maybe Sophia Yin. Once you get those under your belt you will be able to evaluate trainers to see if they are the kind you want to learn from.

I was able to read your posts the other day, but I've been so busy I haven't had the chance to reply! Thanks for replying! I see exactly what you are saying, I went over the site again with what you guys had to say in mind and I could see how it screamed negative reinforcement! Good call guys :thumbsup: Definitely not a trainer I will be wasting anymore of my time on.

That's great! I'm glad to hear you have such a positive outlook on teaching teenagers! I was in public high school for one semester and I could see some seriously unhappy teachers. My adv. algebra 2 teacher was so disgruntled I actually switched from his class. I am a good math student and I had an F in his class (this is after going in every day for a month on my lunch trying to get help) all he'd do is read his magazine and chatter off an explanation from across the classroom with a mouthful of food.:eyeroll: When you looked at his class sheets, only three people in my class were passing. And I personally know quite a few of them who were math WIZ kids. The teacher I switched too was very nice and understanding, within a couple weeks he had me entirely caught up and rolling smoothly because he actually cared and helped me! I'd like to thank you for having a positive outlook on teaching kids, their needs to be more teachers like you!!

The superdog website won't load on my phone. Where is the person located??

They were located out of multiple states, but as Tess, Crio, and Zoe said, it was yelling negative reinforcement!

I dont even need to look at the link. Any trainer that doesnt shout "positive" from the rooftops on their site is doing to be yank and crank or a version there of..You shouldnt have to decode or figure out their style

Also beware of "positive" trainers that really arent. Make sure you go watch classes before you commit to anything. I actually walked away froma treat and clicker class because they kept yanking and spraying a reactive shnauzer.

Good advice, thank you Crio!! I will definitely keep this in mind! How awful is that?

I looked more extensively at the site later. Lots of emphasis on prolonged down-stays of an hour, heeling behind the owner, and humans eating meals first and so on. Also they announced that wild dogs live in packs based on dominance led by an alpha dog who gets there by strength... As Crio says, the same old, same old tired worn out and scientifically dis-proven stuff.

Lots and lots of photos of dogs on down stays, looking fairly supressed, but the caption talking about how happy they are.
Sigh....

Oh, and a story with pictures about a JRT who acts as a life guard, is concerned about dogs in the water, and wants the labrador to get out of the pool, and shows this by biting the lab's ear. It was very confusing!

I thought I'd searched the site! I didn't see where they had actually mentioned being "alpha" and such or I wouldn't have wasted your time. I did get some valuable information though! So thanks guys! And I didn't see that JRT story either -scratches head- I must have missed a link somewhere? The whole site looks the same.

**Update**

Alright, so today I made a call to really the only positive reinforcement trainer in my area that I can find. She specifically says on her site that she doesn't use outdated methods such as the "Alpha role, leash pops, dominance based theory ect.." There is one other organization, but they are a little sketchy. I feel they may be boasting positive reinforcement, but they have also stated things that makes me think they would do things like the class that Crio experienced with the schnauzer. They were saying all positive reinforcement, but then were saying you must be your dogs leader -sooo...onder:I wound up leaving a message with this lady, explaining my situation. My name, school, I was interested in the Dog training career and would, like to talk about job shadowing. The entire message was a train wreck though. I've never been good with leaving messages! I'm hoping I didn't come off as too pushy, but I did say things like "when it's convenient for you" "I know your probably busy", but -cringe- I don't know. I totally felt and sounded nervous, so I tried not to sound nervous, but I hope I didn't over shoot it and sound like I really didn't care about dog training by trying to play off the cool unworried attitude. She's probably wondering if English is my second language after that message! I hung up the phone and did the "Ahh crap!!!:bashself: That was awful!!!" dance. (Well, at least I have a little dance and jig for that situation. Usually consisting of me grimacing and jumping around for several seconds while I contemplate what just happened. Not sure about you normal folks out there) Annnd I haven't heard anything back from her. I called her at 2 pm.

Do you think I should give her a couple days or call back tomorrow (but not leave a message)?? I'm sure that if I had her on the phone, I could explain my situation better and not come off like some random teen. I just am awful at leaving messages!:headshake: I don't want to come off as being pushy either and annoy her.

P.s. I tried to proofread this post, but I couldn't make it. I'm sorry for any major grammatical errors or long babbling strings. It's late though and I can't look at this screen for another second or I think my eye's are going to fall out of my head! It's been a long day! So if something needs clarifying, please ask! And I am apologizing ahead of time!
Thanks guys for helping me so much and giving me such valuable information. I can't believe how much I've learned in the last week, and I am excited about how much more I still have to learn!