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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Obviously this is a controversial topic, so please be respectful :)

Thoughts on feeding a dog "V-Dog" (dry vegan kibble) and supplementing with yogurt, healthy eggs - and occasional good quality meat. I don't know anyone who has fed their dog a vegetarian diet (we have never done this with any dogs). Just looking to hear from those who have done this, and how it went (or is going).

Here's a link to the V-Dog webpage:
https://v-dog.com/collections/kibble

And here are a couple of other articles on the topic:

Vegan Dogs – A healthy lifestyle or going against nature? – Clinical Nutrition Service at Cummings School

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/06/well/family/the-vegan-dog.html
 

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Nope. I don't agree with it at all. While dogs CAN live on a vegetarian diet, they don't truly thrive, tend to have deficiencies, and just overall aren't meant to eat that way. Lifespan is probably shorter as well. Feeding a dog, a carnivore, a diet so unnatural is wrong. There are SOME beneficial plant matter that they can really benefit from, like spirulina and coconut oil. But a whole diet, no. They have absolutely no biological need. Dogs didn't evolve over thousands of years eating plants. If so, they would have teeth for grinding like horses and cattle do.
 

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Nope. I don't agree with it at all. While dogs CAN live on a vegetarian diet, they don't truly thrive, tend to have deficiencies, and just overall aren't meant to eat that way. Lifespan is probably shorter as well. Feeding a dog, a carnivore, a diet so unnatural is wrong. There are SOME beneficial plant matter that they can really benefit from, like spirulina and coconut oil. But a whole diet, no. They have absolutely no biological need. Dogs didn't evolve over thousands of years eating plants. If so, they would have teeth for grinding like horses and cattle do.
I agree dogs are not suppose to eat just plants they need meat in their diets. :)

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Personally, I think anyone who forces their dog to be a vegan/vegetarian should be charged with animal abuse - those dogs Know they are missing out one something they desire/want/need every time they smell meat waft in from some place...and it has to be stressful for them to utterly know that this is something they should be getting...a deep down natural thing.

If owners are that concerned about the not eating of meat, then their pet of choice should be a rabbit, or a cow, or something that is a Plant Eater...not one who, by nature, is meant to have meat as a source of food.
 

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Cats are obligate carnivores; domestic dogs are omnivores.



it's not really that controversial - despite certain catchy commercials on TV. ;)
Dogs are omnivores; so are humans, pigs, & many other mammals - bears [other than polar], peccary, raccoons,...

Dogs digest carbs quite well; the problem ingredients for them are actually 2 of the high-protein items, a grain [flint corn AKA field corn, used in cornmeal, corn starch, etc] & a legume: soybean.
Soy looks great on paper - it has a wonderful analysis, but it's an extremely complex molecule, & dogs don't break it down well. Flint-corn is very high in cellulose & difficult to digest. Neither is absorbed well by dogs, b/c they don't digest it well.

Grains in general are not "bad" for dogs - if they aren't gluten intolerant, dogs can have gluten, WHICH IS THE PROTEIN COMPONENT OF THE GRAIN; that's why seitan is made of wheat-gluten; wash away the starch, & what's left? - protein, which is what stretches to make yeast-breads rise.
No gluten? - the yeast has no stretchy protein to work on.

Many dog-breeds do well on diets that hark back to the breed's foundation & country of origin - Asian dogs on rice, Rough Collies on oats, N Europe on barley.

Beans, rice, sweet potato, wheat, potatoes, many fruits, berries, garden veg [broccoli, cauliflower, summer squash, winter squash, etc] are readily digested & absorbed by dogs.

GMOs are a different critter! - the alteration of GMO crops is cellular, & every cell in the plant, from root to leaf-tip, is changed. Every cell produces herbicide if that's what it codes for - & when U digest & absorb it, or a dog digests & absorbs it, that tissue becomes a part of U. Now there are intestinal cells secreting herbicide - which plays havoc with friendly flora.

Dogs can eat pretty much most of what humans eat, aside from a few items [onions, grapes / raisins, chocolate, Macadamia nuts]; feral dogs don't chase down antelope in Africa & whitetail deer in eastern U-S, they forage in dumpsters, scavenge in trash, eat garbage off the street & dead fish that wash-up on the beach, & beg from sidewalk-cafe' patrons.

The big concern is to ensure that U provide all the essential nutrients & trace minerals, so buying a base from a company like Honest Kitchen & adding to that will cover the imperatives that are difficult to calculate.

- terry

 

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grass is tough stuff. **Grains** are grass-seeds.

Every time Earl eats veggies (ok, grass) he throws up.[


grass isn't a vegetable - it's mostly cellulose, & very difficult to digest. Herbivores eat grass, & they have many ways to make it more digestible - grind it [horses], ferment it & use termite-type symbionts to break it down [ruminants], chew it twice: once as grass, once as cud; etc.

Dogs & cats mostly use grass to either clean-out the front end [stomach] or the back-end [bowel] of the G-I tract. Foxes use sawgrass to evict gut parasites, another k9 trick.

- terry



 

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Dogs are omnivores;
.

- terry


Yes that is one belief and the other is they are carnivores and the jury is not out yet so it is a contended point. As cats are considered obligate carnivores ( as you cited ) and dogs are considered facultative carnivores.

facultativecarnivores, meaning that they are true carnivores (flesh eaters), but they need not depend solely on animal matter to meet all of their nutritional needs. They can survive on other sources of food, such as plants and insects, for a time or as a supplement when meat is scarce."

Dogs are in the Order Carnivora and family Canidae along with other carnivores.

Dogs can and will eat most anything as they are scavenging carnivores but survive and thrive are two different animals.

You will find opposing opinions by the scholars hence it is rather "controversial".
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I?m curious as to the point of feeding a vegan kibble if you?re going to supplement it with non-vegan ingredients anyway. I?m not trying to be rude, I just don?t understand.

I am not planning on doing this, just to clarify. I just heard an interesting radio interview about this scientist who found that the two biggest differences between dogs and wolves are: 1. a gene that makes them more friendly and sociable to humans, and 2. their ability to digest starch. The scientist described the co-evolution of dogs and humans (as they became less hunter-gatherer and more agricultural) - and basically described how dogs eat like we do - opportunistically and omnivorously. I thought it was a very interesting idea.
Were I to do it, I would choose to supplement the vegan kibble with small amounts of ethically sourced WHOLE foods (like eggs, yogurt, meat), to support small scale family farms rather than factory farms and because it sounds pretty healthy. If the V-Dog kibble is nutritionally adequate, and I give pup some top quality extras to boost quality of their diet, all the while supporting good companies and responsible farmers, that might be a very appealing option. But I don't know. It's a new idea to me, and it's hard to talk about it because people have a strong emotional response... not a lot of people have investigated it from a science-based perspective. I'm not promoting it or defending it, I'm just asking questions.
(I also have read on here a number of people who have dogs with allergies that seem to do fine on a vegetarian kibble.)
 

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I?m curious as to the point of feeding a vegan kibble if you?re going to supplement it with non-vegan ingredients anyway. I?m not trying to be rude, I just don?t understand.

I am not planning on doing this, just to clarify. I just heard an interesting radio interview about this scientist who found that the two biggest differences between dogs and wolves are: 1. a gene that makes them more friendly and sociable to humans, and 2. their ability to digest starch. The scientist described the co-evolution of dogs and humans (as they became less hunter-gatherer and more agricultural) - and basically described how dogs eat like we do - opportunistically and omnivorously. I thought it was a very interesting idea.
Were I to do it, I would choose to supplement the vegan kibble with small amounts of ethically sourced WHOLE foods (like eggs, yogurt, meat), to support small scale family farms rather than factory farms and because it sounds pretty healthy. If the V-Dog kibble is nutritionally adequate, and I give pup some top quality extras to boost quality of their diet, all the while supporting good companies and responsible farmers, that might be a very appealing option. But I don't know. It's a new idea to me, and it's hard to talk about it because people have a strong emotional response... not a lot of people have investigated it from a science-based perspective. I'm not promoting it or defending it, I'm just asking questions.
(I also have read on here a number of people who have dogs with allergies that seem to do fine on a vegetarian kibble.)
I think the difference with feeding a non-vegan supplement is the food is whole it's not cut up and made into kibble it's more of the actual whole product then something made in a factory :) It would have a higher nutrition value then if it was in the kibble with it made in it. As kibbles has to add that back in through supplements because it was taken out through the process. Which would make it not whole any longer. That also would explain why certain dogs have allergies to it. They need the whole product not processed product.
I believe both of those things the scientist said I know my huskies can handle rice okay its what they get if they get sick or I have a rescue coming in that needs to gain weight. Rice chicken and eggs works Everytime.

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I know it's a crude observation when it comes to the question of whether a dog is an omnivore or a carnivore but I look at it this way. If I fed my dog the same diet the rabbits in my backyard eat, my dog will eventually die on that diet. However, if I feed my dog the rabbit whole, sans the contents of its gut ( so as to avoid the obvious argument ) my dog will live. One diet ( plant matter only ) is contingent on the other for life whereas the other diet consisting of strictly the rabbit carcass does not need any of the vegetative diet nor components which might be unique to that specific diet.
 

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I?m curious as to the point of feeding a vegan kibble if you?re going to supplement it with non-vegan ingredients anyway. I?m not trying to be rude, I just don?t understand.

I am not planning on doing this, just to clarify. I just heard an interesting radio interview about this scientist who found that the two biggest differences between dogs and wolves are: 1. a gene that makes them more friendly and sociable to humans, and 2. their ability to digest starch. The scientist described the co-evolution of dogs and humans (as they became less hunter-gatherer and more agricultural) - and basically described how dogs eat like we do - opportunistically and omnivorously. I thought it was a very interesting idea.
Were I to do it, I would choose to supplement the vegan kibble with small amounts of ethically sourced WHOLE foods (like eggs, yogurt, meat), to support small scale family farms rather than factory farms and because it sounds pretty healthy. If the V-Dog kibble is nutritionally adequate, and I give pup some top quality extras to boost quality of their diet, all the while supporting good companies and responsible farmers, that might be a very appealing option. But I don't know. It's a new idea to me, and it's hard to talk about it because people have a strong emotional response... not a lot of people have investigated it from a science-based perspective. I'm not promoting it or defending it, I'm just asking questions.
(I also have read on here a number of people who have dogs with allergies that seem to do fine on a vegetarian kibble.)

I will not feed any of the vegan company pet foods, simply because I think they are placing a human lifestyle choice on to an animal who is somewhere between a omnivore and carnivore, leaning more towards carnivore.

To figure out whether or not a dog or cat should be fed a vegan diet try homecooking one and do not supplement it with vitamins and minerals, and see how it ultimately does. From what research I've read the dog will likely start to show vitamin and mineral deficiencies and the cat will be suffering severe health problems if it hasn't died. The only way dogs and cats survive on such diets, especially commercially produced heavily processed diets, is that they are heavily supplemented with vitamins and minerals. Now I know what you will say, but so are all the commercial dog foods. The thing is that I can homecook for my dog or cat so long as I do it right, and include meat and organs, the animal will be fine, not so with a vegan diet. The companies that produce vegan foods like to ignore that fact and will inform you that being a vegan is actually healthy for a dog or cat.

If you wish to use a carb, veg, based food try The Honest Kitchen. They have vegetable and carbohydrate base mixes that you can add your own meat to, or you can get their complete mix that already contains dehydrated meat. Doing that you'll skip supporting factory farms, will know where the meat comes from, and you won't be supporting vegan pet food companies.
 

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I have to add as a side note my huskies will not eat human processed food. All the raw food I get them is from an Amish store in my area. My huskies will not touch a French fry or a hamburger. (I have tried on them all. They look at me and put their noise up in the area. They are thinking No Way). :) besides rice. There is just something different about it. :)

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proteins as food allergies

I think the difference with feeding a non-vegan supplement is the food is whole it's not cut up and made into kibble -
it's more of the actual whole product then something made in a factory :)

It would have a higher nutrition value then if it was in the kibble with it made in it. As kibbles has to add that back in through supplements because it was taken out through the process. Which would make it not whole any longer.

That also would explain why certain dogs have allergies to it. They need the whole product, not processed product.
...

"whole food" / unprocessed won't avoid allergens, nor will kibble / cooked-canned / cooked chill-pack AKA sausage or loaf / "dry burgers" - semi-moist foods / raw / home-cooked "cause" allergens / allergies.
Allergies are caused by repeated exposure, sensitizing the body.

Food allergies in dogs are most-often to proteins - what form the protein comes in, whether cooked & dried kibble, cooked & canned wet food, cooked & tube-packaged "loaf" for slicing, semi-moist "burgers", or even RAW whole-foods, makes no difference -
the allergy is to the protein, not to the processing method. It's the ingredient.

Dogs, just like ppl, can be allergic to anything - contact, inhaled, eaten, drunk, coloring agent, flavoring, Rx med, U name it. Dogs, just like ppl, can break out in a rash from a certain shampoo, or a dryer-sheet "softener", which is actually a perfumed wax that coats the fibers.

But food allergies are generally proteins - not sugars, & carbs are less often a problem than meat proteins.
I've known dogs who had to eat duck & potato, 'cuz they couldn't tolerate beef, chicken, lamb, trimmed pork, or even turkey - all the common meats were off-limits, & duck was among the few left.
[Venison might have been OK, but duck is easier to get in many places.]

an article from Web-MD:
https://pets.webmd.com/dogs/guide/caring-for-a-dog-that-has-food-allergies#1

Scroll part-way down & click on SHOW ALL - otherwise they make U flip thru 4 pages of 3 paragraphs each, vs scroll down the article to the end. [there are ads on each page - hence the flip process.]

QUOTE,
"10% of all allergy cases in dogs are food allergies. ...[a] food intolerance... is different from a food allergy.
...
The most common allergens are beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb, soy, pork, rabbit, & fish. And, most dogs [who are allergic] are usually allergic to more than one thing."



- terry

 

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vegan =/= vegetarian

...

To figure out whether or not a dog or cat should be fed a vegan diet, try home-cooking [a vegan diet], do not supplement it with vitamins & minerals, and see how [the pet] ultimately does.

...the dog will likely start to show vitamin and mineral deficiencies, & the cat will be suffering severe health problems, if s/he hasn't died.

The only way dogs and cats survive on such diets, especially commercially produced heavily processed diets, is that they are heavily supplemented with vitamins and minerals.
...

dogs R not cats, & cats R not dogs.
Cats are obligate carnivores; dogs are not.

Feed Your Cat

QUOTE,
"Cats are obligate carnivores & are very different from dogs - and people - in their nutritional needs.
What does it mean to be an obligate carnivore?
It means that cats are strict carnivores that rely on nutrients in animal tissue to meet their specific nutritional requirements - [they] consume prey high in protein, with moderate amounts of fat, & minimal amounts of carbohydrates.

Cats also require more than a dozen nutrients, including vitamins, minerals, fatty acids, and amino acids. These nutrients are the building blocks of various structural body tissues; are essential for chemical reactions (metabolism, catabolism); transport substances into, around, & out of the body; supply energy for growth & maintenance; & provide palatability.

The important thing to remember about nutrients, particularly vitamins & minerals, is that your cat needs the correct amount - but no more. It is possible to have 'too much of a good thing' when it comes to vitamins & minerals; the use of supplements not only is unnecessary but also can be potentially dangerous to your pet's health."



A cat will indeed die on a strictly-vegan diet, but s/he will go blind 1st, due to lack of taurine.

Dogs OTOH can thrive on a vegetarian diet with small amounts of eggs, dairy, & / or fish, so long as complementary proteins are combined [rice & beans, grain & legume, etc].
For a nutritionally-complete vegan diet, i'd recommend buying one already made that meets AAFCO testing. There are at least 4 commercial brands that are AAFCO-approved in the U-S.
here's one -
https://v-dog.com/blogs/veterinarians


No matter what diet U feed a dog, they need a base mixture of essential nutrients & trace minerals; a home-cooked diet made with meat but lacking in zinc, Vit-C, metabolizable iron, trace amounts of copper, cobalt, manganese, etc, is lacking.

- terry

 
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