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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Because people are too stupid to own intact animals!

Yesterday at work a young female shepherd mix came in first thing in the morning. It was me, a front desk employee, and a dog handler. There were only a few dogs in the group (a couple other young females and a laid back male) because we had just opened. The shepherd was playing with another one of the females and the handler told me he thought maybe one of them got scratched during play because he was seeing drops of blood all over the floor. I checked them both over and it became apparent that the blood was coming from the shepherd's vulva. She was in heat and the owner hadn't told that to the front desk employee. While we were trying to figure out what was going on and get a hold of the owner, another male came in and immediately tried to mount the shepherd. We put her down in a kennel so she wouldn't disrupt the other dogs any further.

A second front employee came in and told us the owner had told him a couple days ago that the dog was in heat and he had told her she couldn't bring the dog in. He had also told her the dog shouldn't be around other dogs in general and that she could cut up some underwear or a diaper so the dog wouldn't bleed everywhere. So the owner knew and didn't tell us she was in heat and still brought her in even though she was told not to, because bringing a bitch in heat in to daycare so it can hang out with a bunch of other dogs is such a great idea...

So we kept the dog in a kennel for the whole day because the owner couldn't pick her up. When the dog went home the owner was told she couldn't come in again until the heat was over.

Today I get out of work and go to the grocery store (local co-op) on my way home. And I see that shepherd and her owner in line at check out! I go to the aisle I saw them walk from and found a trail of blood spots that went all around the store! I guess since the dog can't come to daycare the owner's bringing her on errands and just letting her bleed everywhere for everyone else to clean up... And this is why animal welfare groups are so adamant about spay/neuter. There are so many clueless, irresponsible owners like this!
 

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You don't know for sure this owner is irresponsible and would permit her dog to breed. I am not condoning someone taking a bitch in heat out to a store or daycare, I think they are wrong, but how many intact dogs do you actually have in your facility or see being walked about?

Now it would be an issue for me as I have an intact male, but I don't take him into stores nor does he frequent doggie daycare.

Personally, I have not found it difficult to keep a dog intact, and I think animal welfare groups are way too militant on the issue; de-sexing puppies is unacceptable IMO.
 

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Ew.

As someone with a bitch currently in season, I can't imagine taking her somewhere with a bunch of dogs to hang out for the day. Also, she is a fairly small dog and has the potential to make quite a mess, so I can't imagine a shepherd.
 

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It is very individual how much a bitch bleeds. None of ours has needed pads or other protection. They leak very little or keep themselves clean by frequent licking. I barely notice Alva's heats - and she is not a small dog. Well, she has some hair down there which probably absorbs some of the discharge.

A bitch on heat can be a problem in places like a daycare. The intact males can get excited and fight or just be stressed in general. If the staff does not realise the situation in time there can be an accidental mating. Ouch, would not want that...

Where I live, training facilities have opened up a bit towards bitches on heat. Earlier heat mean total ban from, well, everywhere, if I remember it right. Now some places allow them if others in the training group don't resist and the bitch is wearing pants to avoid scent residue and stains. Well, for those earning their bread by training, a banned bitch on heat means less income. Some male dogs' owners even want to practice near bitches on heat for distraction training.
I guess kennels here would take in bitches on heat but prefer being informed about it. Not many doggie daycares here so never considered their opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
You don't know for sure this owner is irresponsible and would permit her dog to breed. I am not condoning someone taking a bitch in heat out to a store or daycare, I think they are wrong, but how many intact dogs do you actually have in your facility or see being walked about?

Now it would be an issue for me as I have an intact male, but I don't take him into stores nor does he frequent doggie daycare.

Personally, I have not found it difficult to keep a dog intact, and I think animal welfare groups are way too militant on the issue; de-sexing puppies is unacceptable IMO.
We have a policy against females in heat, and she was informed about that, and still thought it would be a great idea to bring her dog to daycare, where we absolutely have intact adolescent males- we get a lot of new puppies and adolescent dogs and we're pretty lenient about spay/neuter up until about a year as long as the animal's not in heat and it isn't causing problems with the other dogs. AND she didn't inform the current staff that her dog was in heat (because she knew we would turn her away otherwise). Also causes problems with the fixed dogs too, neutered males can and will tie with a female in heat, become possessive of her, and many dogs react negatively to the hormonal/pheromonal change.

Then she brings the dog into a grocery store when it's bleeding everywhere!

How is this not selfish and irresponsible? The fact that she's knowingly breaking our policy and bringing her dog to spend time with about a dozen other "unknown" dogs is irresponsible.
 

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We have a policy against females in heat, and she was informed about that, and still thought it would be a great idea to bring her dog to daycare, where we absolutely have intact adolescent males- we get a lot of new puppies and adolescent dogs and we're pretty lenient about spay/neuter up until about a year as long as the animal's not in heat and it isn't causing problems with the other dogs. AND she didn't inform the current staff that her dog was in heat (because she knew we would turn her away otherwise). Also causes problems with the fixed dogs too, neutered males can and will tie with a female in heat, become possessive of her, and many dogs react negatively to the hormonal/pheromonal change.

Then she brings the dog into a grocery store when it's bleeding everywhere!

How is this not selfish and irresponsible? The fact that she's knowingly breaking our policy and bringing her dog to spend time with about a dozen other "unknown" dogs is irresponsible.
That's completely ridiculous. We have people do that in the grooming salon too. We have policies against dogs coming in if they have been given any shots in the past 48 hours (among other things). People think that rules and policies are for everyone but them and will work around them as best they can.

We actually had someone come in the other day and when we asked if their dog had any history of heart disease she said no. Then as we were taking the dog back she said "wait, she was diagnosed positive for heart-worms last month, that doesn't count does it?" and proceeded to get upset with me when we explained that we can't allow a dog who currently has heart-worms into the salon.

We also had to send a dog to the vet last month because he was anally bleeding profusely. He was diagnosed with tapeworms and pancreatitis. She called and accused me of giving him treats that gave him the tapeworms (fully grown tapeworms in the span of an hour? We don't even give treats!) and said her vet said it was fine for him to finish the groom that day. When we told her no she booked online for the very next week and put in a phone number that was disconnected. We told her when she showed up that day that we asked a vet and her dog couldn't come in until 2 and a half weeks after he stopped showing symptoms, because pancreatitis plus stress could kill him and she screamed at us about how we were idiots and her vet said it would be fine.

Anyways, I'm sorry you have to deal with that at daycare too. Sometimes I wish I could just work with the dogs and never have to see the owners.
 

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Ugh I've been there. The thing is, if people would just tell us their dog is in heat we would make some accommodations if they need to board or a place to hang out for a bit. But we always get the people who lie.
 

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How is this not selfish and irresponsible? The fact that she's knowingly breaking our policy and bringing her dog to spend time with about a dozen other "unknown" dogs is irresponsible.
IMO, your client was ignorant, but that doesn't mean that shelter/rescue spay and neuter policies are reasonable. Any organization that de-sexes 6/7/8 week old puppies, in fact up to six months of age, is also ignorant and cares nothing for the well-being of their young charges.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
IMO, your client was ignorant, but that doesn't mean that shelter/rescue spay and neuter policies are reasonable. Any organization that de-sexes 6/7/8 week old puppies, in fact up to six months of age, is also ignorant and cares nothing for the well-being of their young charges.
I completely agree with you that spaying and neutering puppies isn't in their best interest and I wouldn't choose to do that with my own puppy if I had one. My point is that I understand why they're so concerned about spaying and neutering because the general public is so clueless about handling intact dogs
 

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I'd say that it's fair to call a dog owner irresponsible if that owner insisted on bringing a dog in heat to a facility where she was specifically told that was not allowed earlier--and obviously knew the dog was in heat, as she had been told that it was. Did she not understand--or not care--that her dog could have been mounted, and possibly impregnated, by male dogs or that fights could break out that could end up with her dog, or someone else's, being injured?

I also wonder why in the world she thought it was acceptable to take a dog into the grocery store in heat or not, unless the grocery store in question has more lenient policies regarding dogs in their store than any grocery store I've ever been in. The ones I frequent only allow assistance/service dogs, although some might allow ESA as well--I've just never seen anything but clearly identifiable assistance/service dogs in the stores. And any animal--including the human variety--ought not to be dripping blood all over a grocery store's floor without it eliciting some kind of comment from the other customers/store personnel. At best, it's unsanitary and at worst, it would be an indicator of something being seriously wrong.
 

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IMO, your client was ignorant, but that doesn't mean that shelter/rescue spay and neuter policies are reasonable. Any organization that de-sexes 6/7/8 week old puppies, in fact up to six months of age, is also ignorant and cares nothing for the well-being of their young charges.
I agree with you that not every doog needs to neutered. especially since early neutering is suspected to be a risk factor for some health and behaviour problems.
When the owner can 100% guarantee that the dog isn't bothing anyone there no need to neuter them.
but letting your dog bleed on the floor in stores is icky.:eek:
 
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I do think that neutering/spaying dogs is an obligation of dog owners. Just go to your local pound, how many dogs are there without homes just waiting to be euthanised? How many puppies are there also who will almost always be adopted? The only reason to breed your dog is for selfish reasons. We have an over-population of dogs without homes and it seems cruel in my opinion to keep breeding dogs while there are so many desperately in need of adoption.

It's also been showing that neutering female dogs before a certain age reduces their risk of breast cancer later on. There biological advantages to neutering/spaying, not just social/moral ones.
 

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Friendly reminder of rules.
Spay/neuter is certainly a hot topic especially when breeding and sheter/rescue discussion enters the mix!

Many different opinions out there. Just please remember to be respectful even if disagreeing with another. Thanks!;)
Posted via Mobile Device
 

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It's also been showing that neutering female dogs before a certain age reduces their risk of breast cancer later on. There biological advantages to neutering/spaying, not just social/moral ones.
I mostly left my current bitch intact for health reasons as there is a flip side to the comment you made. Health risks such as urinary incontinence, cardiac tumors, delay in growth plate closure and osteosarcoma are associated with spaying a bitch. There have been studies done regarding most of these issues. There are pluses and minuses, so to say there are only benefits from spaying a bitch is mostly uninformed just as it would be to suggest the opposite.

This thread is aimed at the responsibilities an owner has if they choose to keep their dog intact. The OP cited an example of someone who is not living up to the additional responsibilities a person has if they chose to leave their dog intact. I wholeheartedly agree with the OP that there are too many irresponsible owners with intact dogs. It's a real problem.

Dr. Milani a somewhat dissenting voice regarding traditionally accepted "benefits" of speutering probably sums up this topic best, “When all of the responsible people neuter their dogs, who’s left breeding?” she asks, answering, “The irresponsible ones.”
 

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I agree, having an intact dog is not for everyone. I castrated my Aussie at 6 months, since that was just what you did. After doing research, I regretted it immensely. My BC is currently intact until she is old enough that getting her spayed will not impact her development.
The over-flowing of shelters is tragic, but it isn't from responsible breeders.
 

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Yes, there is an overflow at shelters, but it is not from responsible dog owners with intact dogs. My male is one year old and intact, and we may neuter him when he is old enough or decide not to at all. There are many health reasons, especially for large breeds. It's all about management. And I take my dog to stores all the time...like, for eg., Home Depot, and never have problems. He is well behaved, but regardless of that, he is on a leash. I no longer take him to the dog park, but he has supervised play dates with other dogs.

In reference to the OP's story, yeah, that woman was really trying to be sneaky! Hah, yeah, I can just imagine having a female in heat at a daycare could be a nightmare for the staff.
 
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