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They are this way so that they will never, ever, give up the fight. Even if the person they are taking down is assaulting them. This is for police and protection work.

IPO, French ring, Mondioring, etc... The 'bite' or 'protection' sports, can just be sports. Much like agility and rally. I know (very few) dogs achieve high level results with positive reinforcement based training too. They see it as a game, doesn't make the dog less stable or more prone to biting people.

Like I said, they aren't all this way. I have not heard of these kinds of stories from my dog's breeder. Her dogs go into therapy and service work too and are stable and clear headed. Those who know more than me know which lines to avoid, if you don't want handler aggression. Though in the story I posted, it wasn't necessarily handler aggression. It was just very, very intense fight drive and lack of a release cue.

EDIT: Just read your last post. Didn't detect the sarcasm in the prior one. Oops!
This is very good! :)

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Or a very green not so clearheaded dog which hadn't learned his los /laat los with an unrefined fight drive.
Could be! My point wasn't to scare people from the breed. But people should be fully aware that a stable, well bred dog will still be intensely bitey. And an unstable, poorly bred dog can be dangerous. Not saying the dog in the anecdote was one or the other, since I don't know. But there is that potential.

Oh my! I need a vicious teacup GSD like this.
 

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Okay, first off, I don't make up the news, I just report it.

The vet is the one that is of the opinion that this would have been a thousand dollar dog, worth big dough to put out to stud, if he had papers. I thought PB when I saw brindle coat, and my wife asked the vet when she took him in. The vet laughed, said there was not chance he had any PB in him, aside from his coloring, he had no characteristics of the breed at all. She based her assessment of the dog's likely lineage on his physical examination and her many years of experience.

About the ears, it is common enough that the shepherd breeds ears don't stand up that there are techniques that can be used, including prosthetic devices and tapes to put inside the ears to train them to stand up. This is not quite as bad as cropping the ears, but every bit as silly. The older rescue licks and chews on the pup's ears frequently, and we would have been picking that tape out of his stools, no doubt. The stood up pretty well at 2 months, but 5 months of Staffie chewing on them has broken them down to the point that the tips don't stand up any longer.

With respect to his behavior, his level of energy and propensity to chewing, he is a puppy. In my experience, all puppies chew and all have high energy. He does seem to be more prone to chewing things than other puppies I have known. From day one, he was chewing on the other dog, fortunately the other dog is very gently and has a better temperament than any dog I have had previously. The pup is prone to grabbing your sleeves, if you are wearing a long sleeve shirt, which is a new behavior to me.

I would say his prey drive is relatively high, higher than the other dog for sure. He also barks or growls if he hears anything outside, or if he sees someone or something walking by. He alerts at the slightest provocation, shaping up to be a good watch dog. Both of them are very attractive dogs. The older one we have had for a few years. I can't count how many times people driving by while I was walking him stopped and commented how beautiful he is. One woman was particularly disappointed that he was neutered, as she wanted him to sire some pups for her.

Finally, you are welcome to disagree with my strongly held opinion that people who abuse children and animals deserve the harshest punishment available. Educate yourself about personalities with the tendency to behave in that fashion, and you might just change your mind. That is not really what some of you are doing though. There is a term for folks who think that others have no right to express an opinion contrary to theirs. You can figure that out for yourselves
 

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When a Sheps ears don't stand if you care then there are techniques,some pet owners don't care. That's understandable.
If they don't stand, then they still have shepherd type ears lol they are just floppy rather than erect They don't become rose bud (genetic trait) nor do they somehow fail to grow full Dutch size ears.
So your vet has years of experience as a vet, but clearly not years of experience with Dutch Shepherd. Nor does he seem to have much clue of the varied phenotype of mixed breed dogs, including Pit Bull mixes. He has the perfect ear set for a PB (also found in other breeds like sighthounds got exanple), but he said no characteristics.
The other dog pictured is also being called a Staffie. Was that the vet too?

I don't think the dog is a PB either though, it's a mixed breed. Could have DS, Malinois, GSD, Greyhound, Lab, Cur or Pit Bull or host of any other breed in the background.

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If you look at a picture of the catahoula I know, and at a picture of the catahoulas on Google, he's the spitting image. Catahoulas are also very protective and bark to alert to every little thing. My dog and his catahoula buddy are the two most alert guard dogs in the park racing to the fence and barking and growling at everything. And my dog supposedly has most of his mixed breeds as guarding protective breeds, gsd/shepherd herding breeds, American Staffordshire/ Chow Chow, boxer. He'd extremely protective, as is the catahoula.
He will grab long sleeves, scarves, fuzzy boots or slippers, anything dangling and tempting, so will his English lab buddy. So did my last dog the Akita pitbull mix. That's not that unique.
Your dog is still a puppy so is going to chew on things. Mine is three and chews everything. He chews for fun, he chews when he's bored, he chews when he's anxious or stressed, he chews when he's mad, he just chews. And he's a very sensitive protective guard dog he barks and growls at every little sound in the hallway in my large apartment building. No one gets near my car.
His ears and the catahoula's ears are like your dog's. The DNA testing I had done called them a specific genetic type called semi erect ears.
Shelter and many vets all said my dog was a lab and supposedly he's only got twelve and a half percent lab in him.
Without doing DNA testing you really have no clue.
But if a bunch of unscrupulous abusive criminals and abusers got him they probably stole him or took him as a debt collection from someone who couldn't pay. Somewhat doubtful that either the victims, drug addicts or criminals would have access to a closely monitored Dutch shepherd if it's so hard to get one. More likely a mix or a catahoula who originated down south somewhere and isn't as closely regulated. And isn't a canine shark lol.
Lots of dogs are absolutely gorgeous and get lots of compliments who aren't some rare purebreds, no offense to your dog or to purebreed owners.
My first dog was a Dalmatian lab mix and very fear aggressive so dangerous to walk much in public. Whenever we did cautiously take him to the vet or anywhere, random people would approach and while he was lunging at them say how gorgeous he was and want to breed their dogs to him or offer $600 or more for him and this was way back in the 80s! He wasn't neutered so could have bred.
People say how gorgeous my last dog was and how gorgeous my current dog is all the time. Doesn't make any of them purebreds. Someone actually tried to steal my last dog once. All kinds of nut jobs out there.
 

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Most vets especially if it's such a rare breed no nothing about them.
I know if I where to go to vet with a dog that was a Dutch Shepherd I don't think they would have a clue what it is.
Mixed dogs get called Beautiful all the time because they are. My huskies get complaints any time i take them anywhere with me. So that really a here or there thing.
And on the whole people don't like it when you state your opinion thing most things are fine murder isn't one of them. I grew up with foster children in my home I know how gruesome people can be those children's backgrounds make me cry but it isn't my place to say who dies or who lives.
As @Shadowmom pointed out if those people are such terrible things already. The dog as rare as it is more then likely stolen.
Those ears didn't come from a Dutch Shepherd. I would DNA test your dog to figure out exactly what it is.

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Dutch shepherd are still quite rare in this country, so it's rather unlikely that he is one (I have met a couple through a local dog cllub, and one Dutch/Mal mix that a client was fostering for a shepherd rescue, but they are not a breed you typically encounter outside of "dog people" circles- they aren't mainstream. There is a saying in medical care, "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras" (Dr. Theodore Woodward). It applies to dogs of unknown lineage as well- a given dog is much more likely to contain common breeds which possess its traits vs rare breeds. Your boy has a quite "pit bull esque" facial expression and ear set in the head on photo, and in the side photo, bears a strong resemblance to my neighbor's (long deceased) pit bull/GSD mix. Could he be other breeds? Sure. He doesn't particularly resemble the Dutch shepherds I have met in person, but one can never say never.

You might get in touch with some of your local dog training or conformation clubs, as there may be someone in one of them with personal experience with the breed who can evaluate him in person or even based on photos and give you a better idea as to whether he may be a dutchie or mix. I have done this a few times with dogs of unknown heritage (adoptable dogs from my place of employment), with varying responses (bull terrier rescue agreed with me that a given dog looked to be a BT/pit mix, but they had enough purebred BTs that they couldn't help with him; anatolian rescue told me that the 90 lb shepherd-y looking dog I presented them photos of looked like a very nice shepherd mix, but was exceeding unlikely to be an anatolian given his appearance, behavior description, and history. That said, I do know someone who recently acquired a young purebred central Asian shepherd through our municipal animal shelter (she is an employee there), so rare breeds can pop up occasionally in shelter situations, it's just rare.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
This discussion has gone about as I expected it to go, which is sort of why I worded the initial post as I did. Amusing, though not too surprising.

Riddle me this:

Which opinion would carry more weight with you?

Would it be the opinion of a random group on the internet who looked at a few pictures.

or

Would it be the opinion of someone you have come to know in over 10 years of being acquainted with them as a knowledgeable and thoughtful person. A professional with well over 20 years of experience in the matter being discussed, who actually examined the animal in question.

Who would you be more likely to believe?
 

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This discussion has gone about as I expected it to go, which is sort of why I worded the initial post as I did. Amusing, though not too surprising.

Riddle me this:

Which opinion would carry more weight with you?

Would it be the opinion of a random group on the internet who looked at a few pictures.

or

Would it be the opinion of someone you have come to know in over 10 years of being acquainted with them as a knowledgeable and thoughtful person. A professional with well over 20 years of experience in the matter being discussed, who actually examined the animal in question.

Who would you be more likely to believe?
Why did you ask a random group of people if you not going to take them serious? One of which owns a real Dutch Shepherd.

20 years experience? Examining animals is different than 20 years experience with a certain pure bred of dog? One of the vets at my clinic just retired after about 50 years, they've been part time these last few years but still working kept putting off retiring. Lots of experience obviously, doesn't mean I trust them to breed ID, but that's me you can believe what you like.

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Why ask us?

.

If U already had the opinion of a qualified pro that U know & respect, why ask a bunch of ne'er-do-well keyboard cowboys?
:rofl: Obviously, we don't know sh!t from Shinola. :happydance:

In over 35-years as a volunteer in various public & private pet-shelters, everything from major-urban municipal to small-town county pound, plus all-breed dog rescue organizations [registered 501-c3s], & all of these in 3 states...
I've never seen a Dutchie in a shelter or rescue, EXCEPT a single dog who was surrendered to a GSD-specific rescue, & he was a GSD x Dutch Shep, not a purebred.

Over that same time frame, i've seen hundreds of GSDs in shelters & rescues galore - vs just TWO BSD-Malinois who arrived in public shelters as strays, both with collars, neither with tags or chips.
The Maligator who arrived in Va Beach ACC was housed beside a pitbull who was awaiting a court-date, seized during a dogfighting investigation; he came in wearing a prong-collar as a stray, & while cautious of strangers, was neither human-aggro nor dog-aggro on arrival.
After 2 solid weeks of being snarled at from inches away, threatened every time he ate or moved, & having the cyclone-fence bang under the impact of the 50# male pittie next door, day & night, he was BOTH human- & dog-aggro, & was euthanized. :headshake: It was a dam*ed shame - he was a good dog, but driven crazy by the stress.
Incessant barking, a parade of strangers that agitated the pittie beside him, clanging gates, the clatter of steel bowls on concrete, steel fire-doors with steel frames in cinderblock walls, echoing hard surfaces - the old ACC was built in the 1960s, long, long outgrown, crowded, noisy, with bald hard surfaces.
Had he arrived as a stray 2-years later, after the NEW A.C.C. was constructed, that Malinois might still have been adoptable, after his mandatory reclaim period [for a presumed owner to retrieve him].


I must agree with my fellow know-nothings on 2 points:
Dutchies are very rare in the USA, & that dog is not a purebred of any breed that i'm familiar with.
If he's a genuine purebred, it's of a breed i've never seen before, even as a photograph.

cheers,
- terry

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I'm laughing too, why ask if your set in your ways then get upset on if they don't agree. As I posted in this before, my boy Dixon is a brindle mystery but I'm not set on him being anything other then what he is, a mystery lol.

And the only reason I say this is because my dog has a lot of charisteristics as yours color ear shape wise.
 

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I'm with everyone else what was the point of asking?? Lol
Then you get all mad and upset because it wasn't the way you wanted it lol
You had it set in your mind that's what it is and an expert telling you what it is then why ask.
Vets aren't trained in knowing breeds they are trained on taking care of animals which doesn't require knowing the breed.
"Don't ask questions you don't want to know the answers to"


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Lol I'm sticking with Catahoula. Still looks like a clone of the one I know. And acts like her too. No idea if she's a mutt or purebred she came from a rescue.
I've seen a lot of experts be very wrong.

Vet told me my dog didn't have Lyme because Lyme never caused aggression in dogs or any personality changes in dogs like it does in horses and people. I've read on the internet that it can. And since when does any animal who's feeling pain not get cranky? I insisted that the vet test him for Lyme anyway. Positive. Treated him, all aggressiveness disappeared with treatments.

The behaviorist vet in charge of the mspca insisted my current dog had a high prey drive and would kill my cats because he failed their cat test and tried to refuse to let me adopt him. Problem with that is I read his last owners write up when they surrendered him, he'd lived with cats his whole life at both his homes and was fine. I saw the cat test, they used a wimpy passive cat who didn't out him in his place at all. The behaviorist didn't know my formerly feral Street cats that had my Akita pitbull running to his crate yelping with a bloody nose.
Sure enough, after hours of advocating, the first night he made one lunge while leashed at my smallest fiercest cat and got a scratched cornea and made a mortal enemy. Two weeks of eye meds and six months of me retraining the cat to stop chasing and traumatizing the dog. All the cats ganged up on him and he had to ask permission to go from one room to another or even eat his own food.
They're all buddies now and sleep together, but he's at the very bottom of the totem pole.
Vets definitely can be wrong.
 

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There definitely are Dutchies in shelters occasionally- I'm on a Dutch Shepherd/Malinois FB page that focuses on moving dogs from high volume, often kill shelters to rescues and fosters educated about the breed and with a wider network to find appropriate homes. In watching the page for probably about six months, I haven't seen more than a handful of Dutchies posted, but see at least one Malinois posted every day or two.

From what I've heard from those more plugged into the breeding community for the breed, there just aren't that many backyard breeders producing these dogs. Mostly they're being produced for performance- either in professional work or sport. The less-than-reputable breeders tend to be gravitating towards Malinois these days- there is a much wider market for Mals thanks to all the military movies they've been producing.

I really, really doubt that that dog is a Dutch mix. Most bully breeds have brindle coat genes, and they're much wider spread. I don't personally see much Dutch in the shape of the head, either. But heck, believe what you want.
 

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@Markie
I really like that quite, fitting
"Don't ask questions you don't want to know the answers to"

An owner is free to believe what they want, but don't ask questions with a closed mind.

I have respects for most vets, but generally they are not an authority on dog breeds. I trusted mine and respect mine after decades of practicing, I entrust my dogs life to him. He did emergency c section for my bitch after midnight there till 3am 2 years ago, he cropped her mom's ears 15 years ago and I asked specifically that he do it (there were other vets that worked at his clinic), but I don't believe he knows every dog breed or is an expert on rare breeds or breed standards, ect. When I took my rare breeds to the vets most don't know what they are and if they do it's the first they've ever met or very few.

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Would it be the opinion of someone you have come to know in over 10 years of being acquainted with them as a knowledgeable and thoughtful person. A professional with well over 20 years of experience in the matter being discussed, who actually examined the animal in question.

Who would you be more likely to believe?
Having had a little experience with the breed and slightly more experience with fanciers/breeders of it and related breeds (Mals, Tervurens, WL GSDs), I would actually be inclined to dismiss the opinion of an individual who bases the breeding value of a dog- of an almost completely purpose-bred breed- on looks alone. Someone familiar with the breed enough to be able to reliably identify a given dog as said breed would know that a purpose bred dog is of minimal monetary worth without proof of said working ability, or history of working heritage (known parentage). I would guess that it is equally likely that your vet thinks your dog is a lovely dog and a good pet, and wanted to impress upon you what a nice dog you have found.

As someone who works with several vets and has great respect for their knowledge of dogs and their health and well being, I can say that many are NOT experts on dog breed ID or physical conformation of ALL breeds. They may have greater knowledge of common breeds or breeds they particularly are fond of, but aren't necessarily going to know every nuance of a given breed unless it correlates with a health issue which is known to the veterinary community.

Again, I would encourage you to try to get in touch with someone from either a local/regional Dutch shepherd breed club, or a local working dog club that has Dutchies actively participating, as that is your best bet to find someone who is knowledgeable specifically about Dutch shepherds. Or you might consider DNA testing for breed, though I'm not sure that Dutch shepherds are a breed that all tests can identify. Regardless, he looks like a nice dog and I'm sure he's a great pet :)
 

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Since you don't believe anyone and looks can certainly be deceiving, just do the DNA testing for breed. Heck do all the DNA testing that exists to be as sure as you can be and post the results to see if your exalted vet has an unknown talent for identifying breeds by look that no one else has.
It's a bit condescending to ask for peoples opinions and then reject them all saying your vet is the only expert that matters. None of my vets even try to identify breeds, they don't study breed identification in vet school they're too busy studying how to actually treat and save lives.
If you want to have and brag about owning some gorgeous rare purebred go to a breeder, learn about the breed of your choice and spend top dollars on it like everyone else does. You got a nice looking rescue mutt, congratulations. I've had three so far and guess what, every Tom, **** and Harry on the street that knows nothing to everything about dogs wants me to breed them all in the past and present and is always offering to buy them.
I spent much time and money breeding my one horse to a breed that would get me one good future performance horse, years and many thousands of dollars. That's what you do for a purebred, learn about and research the breed. Does your dog bite like a true dutch shepherd? Since it sounds like you knew absolutely nothing about them, he would have been euthanized for aggression by now since you weren't prepared for a dog like that. The personality you described sounds absolutely nothing like the dutch shepherd person described. Does sound like the catahoula I know and looks like her clone, look on Google. Maybe that's not a fancy rare enough breed for you though.
Be thankful you got a dog you can manage, and get DNA testing instead of asking for peoples opinions and then being rude. Vets don't care what breed a dog is they care about keeping dogs healthy. Maybe your vet is patronizing you to keep your business.
 

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I agree with the others. Dutch Shepherds are a leaner, leggier breed, he just looks kind of blocky like a bully breed. Also shepherds can't have rose ears. Even if the ears didn't stand up, they'd still have big shepherd ears.

Picture him as a black dog, or a white dog, would you think he still looks like a shepherd then? Far too many people make the mistake of classifying breeds based on color but many, many breeds can be brindle.
 
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