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Hello, I've just registered for this forums really in my last hopes of some advice on my two boys (And to post updates probably weekly on how adorable they both are - Not meaning to brag! haha)

This will probably be a long post, im not good with words and tend to drone on. I apologize in advance.

We rescued our first dog a border collie, Lando, when he was 11 weeks old, he was quite a scaredey cat at first coming into my fathers home with our (at the time) 7 year old black Labrador, Max. Over time he picked up some courage and they lived happily together for the first year of Lando's life. He was potty trained fully and slept on his own bed in my room, Apart from the odd occassions where my partner would come to visit from uni and he would spoil him and id wake up to them spooning :ponder: He was a very social dog, he would go up to stangers and other dogs happily for a cuddle, Everything was perfect with him.

Last april me and my partner decided to move in together near his uni, so we packed up and said goodbye to our families and Landos Bestfriend Max and moved down to the south of england, At first he was like he was back in our hometown. He would approach other dogs on walks and would let strangers pet him on the head as they walked past our house. The only main change was that we went from a large garden to a small courtyard with no grass (We take him out the front to go for a wee in the fenced in front garden) AND that my boyfriend has fully spoilt him and now he sleeps at his feet. I have No problem with this, as its always his side so i can stretch my legs out and he cant (Sucks to be him!)

A few months ago we started noticing he wasnt as social as before and he was shy around people, with men mainly he refuses to go near until hes met them at least 5 times. We have my partners Uni friends come to visit now and again and it takes a long while for him to go near them. Women are totally different he will happily cuddle up to them and love them to bits. Weve tried slowly introducing people since this started happening but hes not getting any better

The other issue was he started randomly peeing on the bed, Out of nowhere he will jump up and pee. I dont know if i should tell him off or not because its happened a fair few times now out of the blue, hes been to the vet and hes not got any issues related to randomly peeing, Im clueless as of why hes doing it, hes pretty much a perfect dog 90% of the time so it cant be us telling him off cause hes pretty chill and is trusted in the house not to ruin anything

Final issue

We decided because he had a bestfriend living at my fathers for a year maybe it would be a good time to bring him a friend, we found a lovely woman near our town that was adopting out border collies so we jumped on the chance and brought home our new bundle of cute, Nuka. hes a typical hyperactive, nippy, Annoying yet cute 9 week old puppy. Slowly training him as much as we can. Since getting Nuka lando is refusing to poo in the courtyard. Since moving in we leave the back door open 24/7 because he likes to poo at random times in the night. Weve just trained nuka to poop in the courtyard and he caught on quite fast, But now weve taught nuka, lando is refusing to poop out there. If we take him for a walk he will poop and thats fine, but on days we cant (I've recently injured my foot, we keep him busy other ways) he will hold it all in.


Does anyone have any advice at all for any of these issues?

I dont know if hes holding in his poo because hes stressed with the new puppy, Nuka is really playful and nippy, with the nipping we are trying to control but energy is hard because hes not fully jabbed so i cant take him for walks.
Im at my wits end i dont know what to do

Any help would be great, Again im sorry for the long post im really bad at thinking one thing and writing it down
 

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Hmm, if Lando is afraid of men, try not to tell him "Aww, it's okay, you'll be alright, it's okay buddy..." in a soothing voice, try also not to pet him and "calm him down".... This might seem a little bit mean and harsh, but let me explain... When you speak to him in a soothing voice when he's all afraid and freaked out, or in the wrong state of mind you are actually nurturing and praising his state of mind! So in a nutshell, when you pet him and try to "assure" him or something, you're actually telling him "Good boy!" for being scared. Instead, try making YOURSELF assertive, strong, and bold. That way, he can look at you, and see you as a leader he is comfortable with to trust. So when you try to introduce him to new people, in your case, men. Be straight forward and strong. Because dogs are like mirrors of your emotions and feelings. If you look like you have everything in control, he will trust you that you got it! And as long as you "Got it all in control" he will learn to be totally cool with whatever he's faced with, because you as "Leader" of the "Pack" are controlling the situation fully. That is kind of how the dogs mind works, dogs are pack oriented animals, so in their mind, the family is like a chain. There is the Leader, or multiple Leaders, and then Followers. The Followers also dominate over themselves in a perfect chain. Sometimes it's fun and interesting to watch lol. Actually, you should watch to see who bosses who around, between Lando and Nuka! Maybe Nuka has the higher rank, and claimed or took over the territory in the courtyard, and Lando is not longer "Allowed" to do his business there because, Lando and Nuka are not yet a "Pack".... Okay okay, I'm getting ahead of myself lol. Start paying attention to these things, its very interesting and fun actually! And you learn so many things of the dog world, it fantasizes me! I love it! Also! I just remembered something! Do any of your dogs roll in each others poo? Sometimes dogs do that, if they enter another dogs territory. They will do that to mask themselves in the scent of the packs' territory, so no accidents happen. Sometimes in the same manner, they will cover each others urine with their own urine, to claim whatever ground the previous dog used. They do this to say "This is mine now, you can't come here or else.." Anyway, hopefully my very long message actually helped you with at least one of your questions lol. Sorry about myself getting a little bit ahead of myself... if you found some unnecessary facts there, hahaha. Have a good day! ;)
 

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For the being afraid of meeting people (particularly men it seems), I would start at a distance and every time he looks at a man, click (if you use a clicker, if not a happy Yes! will do) and give him a fantastic out-of-this-world treat (could be cheese, hot dogs, real meat etc.). These phenomenal treats are only given when he sees a man. Have your partner's friends come to the house, give them some treats, and have them toss the treats to him. Don't have them look at him, or try to pet him, just toss some treats in his direction. Over time he will realize men = fantastic treats coming his way, and will start to look at you whenever you see one. He's a BC, so I suspect he'll catch on quickly.

For the peeing in the bed, is he neutered and did it start happening before or after you got the puppy? If it was after, my guess might be that he is trying to mark that spot as his?

As for the pooping, that is a tough one. Perhaps if each dog had a designated "spot" they each poop in? He could very well be a little bit stressed out by the new puppy, and is more relaxed on walks when he's with you alone?
 

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Sometimes, as dogs mature, they do change a bit - they become more territorial, or more discerning in who they'll accept as friends, whether people or dogs. This could be part of whats happening with Lando. It's not clear to me how old Lando was when you moved house, or how old he was when he began exhibiting fear of men.

The three behaviors you've described sound to me as if your dog is becoming more anxious with each change in his life. How long after you moved did he begin peeing on the bed? Was it before or after he started exhibiting fear of men? Did anything else happen around that time - for instance, did your daily schedule change, so that you are both gone more during the day, or at different hours? Have people moved in nearby that are noisier than previous neighbors, or perhaps have their own dog that has rowdied up the neighborhood? Have you had a lot of visitors? Things that you might consider perfectly unexceptional may seem to your dog as if the world has gone mad, so think back about what might have changed to trigger his anxiety. Knowing this may help you figure out how best to help your dog.

The peeing, in my opinion, is more likely related to anxiety than to marking, as dogs will pee as an appeasement behavior (although the logic of using the bed escapes me, but no doubt he's got it figured out somehow). Have you cleaned your bedding using an enzymatic cleaner? If he did it the first time, and then later smelled it, it could have encouraged further use. The best way to handle that is to reduce his access to the bed; perhaps he needs to sleep beside the bed while you figure out these issues.

As @Shandula suggested, counter-conditioning him to men is a good idea, along with taking him out without the puppy, not just to poo, but just so he gets some one-on-one attention.

I think that whatever you can do to increase his confidence will help eliminate these other issues. It may take some time, so patience is key. For some excellent guidance on how to help dogs who are fearful you could look up the website Fearfuldogs.com
 

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Hmm, if Lando is afraid of men, try not to tell him "Aww, it's okay, you'll be alright, it's okay buddy..." in a soothing voice, try also not to pet him and "calm him down".... This might seem a little bit mean and harsh, but let me explain... When you speak to him in a soothing voice when he's all afraid and freaked out, or in the wrong state of mind you are actually nurturing and praising his state of mind!
Not 100% true. It's true that you can increase or decrease a dog's anxiety through your voice and tone, but not because the dog will think you are praising him, but because if you are worried, maybe he should be worried as well. Being confident is important, but so is being sensitive to how your dog is feeling. Forcing a dog to 'face his fear' is likely to backfire, no matter how 'confident' a persona you present. It doesn't work for a confident person to tell a person who's deathly afraid of snakes "Hey, everything is fine, these snakes aren't scary at all" and then insist you touch one. It would be very difficult, if not impossible, for you to touch that snake, but even if you could it wouldn't eliminate your fear - although it might cause you to try to avoid that person in the future.

On the other hand, if you could see the snake at a safe distance and were given $20 for looking at it, you probably wouldn't mind the snake so much. If you were then asked to move one step closer, for $20, you'd probably do that. Eventually, you'd be able to get close to the snake, all to earn that next $20. And eventually, you might even find yourself able to touch it without heart-pounding fear. That is how counter-conditioning works: the emotional reaction to something scary is changed through pairing the scary thing with something "Great!" - in a dog's case, that would most likely be a special treat.

And as long as you "Got it all in control" he will learn to be totally cool with whatever he's faced with, because you as "Leader" of the "Pack" are controlling the situation fully.
Not true. Even if a dog seems to be ok with having to deal with a scary thing without any counter-conditioning, it may just be that he's shut down. He's not gaining confidence, he's just barely coping with a stressful situation.

That is kind of how the dogs mind works, dogs are pack oriented animals, so in their mind, the family is like a chain. There is the Leader, or multiple Leaders, and then Followers.
Dogs are actually a little different from wolves, they're not so much a pack animal as a group animal. Left to their own devices (feral, free-roaming, village, street dogs, etc.) they are more solitary than wolves, and they don't follow any particular heirarchy. They may travel in a group, but the group changes regularly and is rarely larger than 3 to 5 dogs. And recent studies have demonstrated that dogs will follow the 'friendliest' dog, not the most 'dominant'.

Actually, you should watch to see who bosses who around, between Lando and Nuka!
I think Nuka is still a puppy, and even if dominance in dogs were a "thing", it'd be extremely unlikely that a PUPPY is out trying to dominate other dogs. She's still learning how to communicate effectively, never mind throwing her weight around.

If you do watch multi-dog households, what you are likely to see is that 'status' is quite fluid, not fixed and that most conflicts are settled with little more than a gaze (among well-socialized dog). If one dog is "bossing" other dog(s) around, than that dog is a bully, not an alpha.

A lot of research over the last few years has really disproven the whole dogs and dominance thing from the last century or so. Unfortunately, the 'pack-theory' has been around a long time, so its not surprising its still popping up during dog discussions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you for all your replies! Will get to reading them now thought id say thanks in advance! Sorry for the late reply also, apparently looking after a 2 year old and an 11 week old is hard work! haha
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hmm, if Lando is afraid of men, try not to tell him "Aww, it's okay, you'll be alright, it's okay buddy..." in a soothing voice, try also not to pet him and "calm him down".... This might seem a little bit mean and harsh, but let me explain... When you speak to him in a soothing voice when he's all afraid and freaked out, or in the wrong state of mind you are actually nurturing and praising his state of mind! So in a nutshell, when you pet him and try to "assure" him or something, you're actually telling him "Good boy!" for being scared. Instead, try making YOURSELF assertive, strong, and bold. That way, he can look at you, and see you as a leader he is comfortable with to trust. So when you try to introduce him to new people, in your case, men. Be straight forward and strong. Because dogs are like mirrors of your emotions and feelings. If you look like you have everything in control, he will trust you that you got it! And as long as you "Got it all in control" he will learn to be totally cool with whatever he's faced with, because you as "Leader" of the "Pack" are controlling the situation fully. That is kind of how the dogs mind works, dogs are pack oriented animals, so in their mind, the family is like a chain. There is the Leader, or multiple Leaders, and then Followers. The Followers also dominate over themselves in a perfect chain. Sometimes it's fun and interesting to watch lol. Actually, you should watch to see who bosses who around, between Lando and Nuka! Maybe Nuka has the higher rank, and claimed or took over the territory in the courtyard, and Lando is not longer "Allowed" to do his business there because, Lando and Nuka are not yet a "Pack".... Okay okay, I'm getting ahead of myself lol. Start paying attention to these things, its very interesting and fun actually! And you learn so many things of the dog world, it fantasizes me! I love it! Also! I just remembered something! Do any of your dogs roll in each others poo? Sometimes dogs do that, if they enter another dogs territory. They will do that to mask themselves in the scent of the packs' territory, so no accidents happen. Sometimes in the same manner, they will cover each others urine with their own urine, to claim whatever ground the previous dog used. They do this to say "This is mine now, you can't come here or else.." Anyway, hopefully my very long message actually helped you with at least one of your questions lol. Sorry about myself getting a little bit ahead of myself... if you found some unnecessary facts there, hahaha. Have a good day! ;)
Thank you for all of your advice!
We've noticed that nuka will TRY and be dominant towards Lando but Lando has slowly learnt that hold on this is my house and has been putting Nuka in his place, the first few weeks were rocky, Lando seemed really stressed but now they cuddle in bed together, Almost inseparable and Nuka has started calming down ALOT

Luckily we have had no poo rolling haha (Other than one incident where Lando found fox poop in our front garden!) Lando finally caved and pooped in the courtyard, lots of praise was given as he trotted into the bedroom looking very proud of himself haha. Nuka is fully house trained and will happily poop and wee outside and will take himself out in the night so thats heaven, less to clean up lol

Thank you again! :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
For the being afraid of meeting people (particularly men it seems), I would start at a distance and every time he looks at a man, click (if you use a clicker, if not a happy Yes! will do) and give him a fantastic out-of-this-world treat (could be cheese, hot dogs, real meat etc.). These phenomenal treats are only given when he sees a man. Have your partner's friends come to the house, give them some treats, and have them toss the treats to him. Don't have them look at him, or try to pet him, just toss some treats in his direction. Over time he will realize men = fantastic treats coming his way, and will start to look at you whenever you see one. He's a BC, so I suspect he'll catch on quickly.

For the peeing in the bed, is he neutered and did it start happening before or after you got the puppy? If it was after, my guess might be that he is trying to mark that spot as his?

As for the pooping, that is a tough one. Perhaps if each dog had a designated "spot" they each poop in? He could very well be a little bit stressed out by the new puppy, and is more relaxed on walks when he's with you alone?
Thank you for your reply and your advice on everything

Great advice on teaching him to love men again will definatly be trying this to see if it helps :) when our friends come over we do almost the same thing now and hes learnt to sit peacefully on his bed and come and say hey when he feels comfortable to, Weve been taking him to an agility park down the road from us so hopefully we can try out your tips there!

Hes not neutered at the minute, we are getting that done in a couple of weeks. It was happening a few months prior to getting Nuka, My boyfriend suggested it could be because for a long time i was bedridden and couldnt leave my bedroom (Due to some mental illness malarkey) so he was marking it, probably a bunch of BS hahah but other than that there were no changes in the house, it would be completely randomly, We took him to the vet the last time he did it to see if it was a UTI or if he had an issue in his bladder but all came back good, He hasnt done it in a while now, luckily we have a laundrette just down the road from us so thats helpful when we need to wash bunches of pee stained items!

I cant tell if hes calmer on walks currently because he loves walking so much he wants to get there and be a typical hyper border collie haha, Its kind of weird...Both dogs will now cry when they are away from eachother and then ignore eachother as soon as they are together again (then will cuddle and play all day) With pooping hes feeling a bit more comfortable to go in the courtyard which is fantastic but hes still really picky! hopefully when we move into the new house with a garden he will feel alot better :)

Thank you again for all your help!
 
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