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What to do with puppy?

This is a discussion on What to do with puppy? within the Puppy Help forums, part of the Dog Training and Behavior category; Ok, you have no idea what steps any of us took before using a crate so please stop generalizing. Posted via Mobile Device...

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Old 07-15-2010, 01:39 PM
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Ok, you have no idea what steps any of us took before using a crate so please stop generalizing.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:30 PM
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Ok, you have no idea what steps any of us took before using a crate so please stop generalizing.
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Why don't YOU stop taking everything I say so personally. It was exactly that.. a generalization... what is wrong with a generalized statement? It was a retort to something Mikey had said about dogs being perfectly happy in crates and all I did was explain how and why that happens. Would you prefer I pick some random person out and make the statement directed at them? Hence the "Some people" comment. It wasn't directed at ANYONE least of all... you. If you're getting upset or offended at the things I say then maybe need to re-evaluate your practices rather than ask me not to make generalized statements.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:39 PM
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Thank you all for your replies--you've certainly given me a lot to think about!

I hadn't even thought of a yard as being a bad place for a dog--in my mind, I had thought that a dog would be much happier in a yard, with more space to run and some fresh air instead of being in a small room all day. But for now, I will certainly leave him in the laundry room when I can't be with him, and decide about the yard when he gets older.

As far as crating goes, I don't want to incite any further debates re: the merits of crating; the bottom line is that for ME, I want my dog to at least be comfortable in a crate, even if he isn't always crated for long periods of time. He will be in a crate when we travel in a car, because I think it's much safer that way. I also planning on flying with him a few times, and I want him to be comfortable with his crate in that case, as well as if I ever board him or send him to a friend's house--I want him to have a portable safe place! (He is doing slightly better with the crate training, but still barks and cries a LOT and very loudly--although it only takes him about 10 minutes to calm down. People who have crate trained successfully--any tips?)

So in response to my original question, I will certainly (at least for now) keep him in the laundry room and put out some papers. My only issues with this are:
1) so far, he has shown no interest in the papers. I left them out yesterday and was gone for two hours, and when I got back he had torn up the papers and peed elsewhere on the floor.
2) Won't this teach him that it's OK to pee in the house, as long as he goes on the papers? I want him eventually to be able to go all day in the house without having to eliminate at all, but how do I transition to that point?
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:41 PM
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Sorry you think I am taking it personal, I feel you try to break down others opinions and say they are wrong or you say I'm wrong but repeat what I say. IMO generalizations are horrible and insulting. I do not need to re evaluate my method of training
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:57 PM
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Thank you all for your replies--you've certainly given me a lot to think about!
So in response to my original question, I will certainly (at least for now) keep him in the laundry room and put out some papers. My only issues with this are:
1) so far, he has shown no interest in the papers. I left them out yesterday and was gone for two hours, and when I got back he had torn up the papers and peed elsewhere on the floor.
2) Won't this teach him that it's OK to pee in the house, as long as he goes on the papers? I want him eventually to be able to go all day in the house without having to eliminate at all, but how do I transition to that point?

You need to bait the papers with a paper towel or something else you used to clean up a potty mess. Place it in between the papers and that will teach pup the papers aer a potty area and not a play toy. Him playing with them shows us curious interest which is good, he's thinking about them...now we just need to go the extra step and place the proper thoughts in his head as to what their for. You don't want a HUGE area of papers. Maybe 2 section opened up and kinda over lapped by half their size so your overall area is like a papers width and a half tall.

This will not teach him that it is ok to pee in the house. That is a myth. It gives him the opportunity to make the right choice which is what potty training is all about. Once he is using the papers when you're not home you can move them outdoors to transfer the idea of this is where you're suppose to go. Gradually decrease the size of the paper'd area in his laundry room and don't keep papers down while you're able to watch him. Those are only for times you can't watch him closely and make sure he gets out to go. lastly make sure you are leaving him with plenty of stimulating toys when you confine him so that he has other options aside of the papers to play with. If he seems exceptionally attracted to them then maybe you can get toys that simulate the crinkley sound the papers make. I have seen a hedgehog toy that grunts and crinkles that would prob. make him real happy if he likes that kinda thing.

I'm not going to debate the merits of crating versus not... in your case with the things you plan on doing with air travel crating will be needed but you already have resistance from the pup so you're going to have to make it an uber comforting experience for him and not a battle. Sometimes employing the use of classical music can help soothe an upset dog. Mozart is esp. good at this. I had a 5 months old choc lab here on a 2 week boot camp. He hated his crate but his people wanted him crate trained. The first night he whined and barked ALL night. I finally decided to test the theory of music helping. I put on some christian gospel classical station the second night, he barked/whined for about an hour and was out all night after that so I can say it really does work.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:29 PM
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You need to bait the papers with a paper towel or something else you used to clean up a potty mess. Place it in between the papers and that will teach pup the papers aer a potty area and not a play toy. Him playing with them shows us curious interest which is good, he's thinking about them...now we just need to go the extra step and place the proper thoughts in his head as to what their for. You don't want a HUGE area of papers. Maybe 2 section opened up and kinda over lapped by half their size so your overall area is like a papers width and a half tall.

This will not teach him that it is ok to pee in the house. That is a myth. It gives him the opportunity to make the right choice which is what potty training is all about. Once he is using the papers when you're not home you can move them outdoors to transfer the idea of this is where you're suppose to go. Gradually decrease the size of the paper'd area in his laundry room and don't keep papers down while you're able to watch him. Those are only for times you can't watch him closely and make sure he gets out to go.
That makes sense, thank you! Right now he is great about going outside, so hopefully he will continue to do that when I'm home to let him out, and the papers will work for inside. But how do I transition to him not peeing inside at all, when he's older? I don't want to have to use the papers forever, right?

About crate training: I've been doing lots of what I've seen on other threads in this forum--I toss treats in there for him to find, and I ONLY give him his Kong with a little peanut butter when he's in his crate. He's doing better and better--in fact, today when he saw me getting out the Kong he got really exciting and ran into his crate! But I've been crating him at night because I felt like I had to, and he was MISERABLE, howling like he was being tortured for at least an hour. I felt like the trauma of nighttime was undoing all the gradual introduction to the crate I was doing during the day! So now I think I might not crate him at night, just leave him in the laundry room...and only use the crate for short periods of time during the day, so he continues to get used to it without being traumatized. Is this a bad idea?
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:06 PM
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Iam going to have to respectfully disagree that crate training is a form of owner "cop out" and that free feeding elevates a dogs "status".

That said, lets have som' respect for the OP and not use their thread as a soapbox for our contraversial views that we know will get a kneejerk reaction. If you want to debate crating please start your own thread. If you don't recommend them, thats fine, outline how to use a pen or room instead, that advice can be given and no one is insulted.

Back on topic now everyone. Plzkthxbye



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Old 07-15-2010, 06:16 PM
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[quote=Margarita;68952]That makes sense, thank you! Right now he is great about going outside, so hopefully he will continue to do that when I'm home to let him out, and the papers will work for inside. But how do I transition to him not peeing inside at all, when he's older? I don't want to have to use the papers forever, right?

*At the age of 4-ish months if they have established that they would rather go outside to potty and are giving some sort of signal, or you have your schedule so down pat he isn't having accidents inside or needing the paper, is when you start to decrease the size of the area you leave in teh laundry room for him. If he goes say a week and is going mostly outside, then you move the papers neart he door you take him out to potty in OR if you're confident enough that he will get it (and he seems a smart fellow from your replies) then you can jus take the papers and leave them outside for a couple days. If he has consistant accidents after the papers are outside you're going too fast and he is confused. You'll need the middle step of papers near the door and redirecting him there. When my english shepherd pup Luna was about 4.5 months old is when I noticed consistantly that she was not using her papers over night, that is when I reduced/removed them and expected her to hold it over night. Of course we took up her water bowl about an hour before bed time so we had a "dry dog" when she went to bed.

IMO having an acceptable potty area indoors is better than the pup going thru the mental anguish of having to go in his crate. You really can't make a positive association with his crate if he sees it as a place that gives him discomfort because he's forced to eliminate in it because his bladder/uthreal muscles aren't developed yet. This is one of the biggest causes of anxiety in young pups that are crated. They really DO want to please us and they certainly don't want to have to languish in their piddle all night, so there's really only 2 options.. paper train in a confined area (like you are doing) for longer periods of time, or crate the dog overnight and you have to get up every 3 hours to let him out to potty then you run the risk of establishing a negative behavior pattern (since you obviously don't want to get up in the middle of the night the rest of their lives) of the dog having to go out in the middle of the night for many years. I've seen this happen a lot in some crate trained dogs. *

About crate training: I've been doing lots of what I've seen on other threads in this forum--I toss treats in there for him to find, and I ONLY give him his Kong with a little peanut butter when he's in his crate. He's doing better and better--in fact, today when he saw me getting out the Kong he got really exciting and ran into his crate! But I've been crating him at night because I felt like I had to, and he was MISERABLE, howling like he was being tortured for at least an hour. I felt like the trauma of nighttime was undoing all the gradual introduction to the crate I was doing during the day! So now I think I might not crate him at night, just leave him in the laundry room...and only use the crate for short periods of time during the day, so he continues to get used to it without being traumatized. Is this a bad idea?

*Actually I think that is a great compromise for you and the dog. You're keeping his crate interactions positive with minimal anxiety triggers and providing him the opportunity to think and make the right choices about his potty habits so teaching self limiting behaviors at the same time. You may also want to consider after he is comfortable in his crate in the laundry room you might even consider moving into various other rooms of the house to kind of "bomb proof" his crate experiences. Once you get past a level in training the next step is to add distraction which changes the entire aspect of the training element. if you put his crate in many different rooms it will help him to learn it is truly the crate that is his source of comfort and not the crate in the laundry room that is the source of comfort. Know what I mean? Also I'm sure he'd appreciate the change of scenery every one in a while for mental stimulation [/quote]


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Old 07-16-2010, 06:56 AM
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Well, partial success! Actually I would call it near-complete success...I left Joey in the laundry room last night, didn't bother shutting him in his crate. He crawled right into the crate by himself and fell asleep! No howls of horror at all, barely a yip or two. I got up in the middle of the night to check on him and sure enough, asleep in his crate. Hooray! I slept so much better, and I feel SO much better knowing that my roommate will come back from vacation and not have to suffer through the barking.

The only issue was that I left some newspapers on the floor, nicely baited with some pee-soaked paper towels...and he once more peed NEXT to them. Maybe I need to put out a bigger area?
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Old 07-16-2010, 11:43 AM
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Yay Joey (and you ) I would increase the size opf the paper for the next 2 nights or so so that he is compelled to potty in them. Basically don't leave him room to go next to it. After he does this for a couple nights then start to cut backt he size of the paper. On extremely difficult dogs I have on occasion just put the paper right over the accident spot and left it there to soak it up then put fresh paper on top, then changed it the following morning (I know this sounds gross but it is effective). Make sure your bait paper isn't HUGE. Just a napkin sized bit or smaller to bait the papers usually put under the corner insted of in the middle might be mroeeffective for tis fellow. If it smells too "used" he will go next to it rather than on it. I notice in my dog run that my dogs tend to put at lest 2-3 feet of space between their leavings.
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