Too Much Space

Go Back   Dog Forum > Keeping and Caring for Dogs > Dog Training and Behavior

Too Much Space

This is a discussion on Too Much Space within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; I adopted my brother's dog, Julie. She's a smallish medium lab spitz border collie, and smart and sharp. I have been trying to teach her ...

User Tag List

 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-02-2019, 09:08 AM
  #1
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: in the States
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Too Much Space

I adopted my brother's dog, Julie. She's a smallish medium lab spitz border collie, and smart and sharp. I have been trying to teach her new things even before she was mine.

Now I've been teaching her a dumbbell retrieve like you see in obedience competitions. I am really only doing this "just for fun" because she is really only a "just for fun" dog. But she refuses to come into my space to present her fetch item. I want to see how close to a competition style fetch we can get to but I don't know how to encourage her to come in with something. I also want her to hold her item and she's wanting to drop it. I'm trying to fix this with me holding the item inside her mouth until I mark and I haven't seen results yet. Obviously it won't be overnight but I'm more concerned about her skirting my space and avoiding that directness.

For full disclosure I have used aversion in quasi-emergency situations. I never hurt her or was mean, but she is very sharp and I usually would need to snap her out of her idea of dangerous situations. This may have damaged our relationship, even though I am less inclined to believe that when her reaction was mostly "oops my bad" and happy directly after. I want to explore all options with you guys the experts and try whatever I need to. Thanks!
ThePastoralFandog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2019, 04:10 PM
  #2
Senior Member
 
diamondemuzik@gmail.com's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 745
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
ok, so as its for fun- you can change & add things like before the drop keep saying bring bring bring bring (up high like a phone ringing) crouch down & smile (so your not intimidating)reach out for the ball & say give. If its still not happening- offer a treat or another ball & give it to her when she releases it. Or keep saying give give smile, & say c'mon give it to me ( in a friendly way) then you can go yay thanks!!! good girl I then throw it up & catch it a couple of times & then give it back to her, so she knows I have a turn then she gets it back or I throw it. As far as hands & association of hands been used in a way which creates fear- your dog will be wary of hands & to overcome that hands must only be used as a positive experience (with the emphasis on only). This builds trust in hands. Patting cuddling sharing (2 way giving) so she doesnt think hands just take, hand feeding, hands doing fun things like throwing a ball, & then another sometimes I have 10 balls & throw different ones. Tummy rubs, rubbing behind the ears, back rubs above the tail, use of harness & lead, not pulling by collar- hands are then associated with the collar pulling as she can see hands coming near her face/neck, where as a harness & lead the hands are away from her gently guiding. If you think aversion & collar pulling isnt horrible try wearing one & get someone to pull you forward & backward by it for a day & see how your neck feels. Or have a human do to you what aversion you used. You might also be nice to the person for stopping, not becos it wasnt that bad. Dogs are the same- they will be happy its over, that doesnt mean it wasnt awful at the time. Even not done roughly it still hurts & feels uncomfortable so I am glad to hear your not using aversion anymore! Dogs have feelings- they feel deeply
diamondemuzik@gmail.com is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2019, 05:42 PM
  #3
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: in the States
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
her problem is that she will not hold on to the retrieval item. She loves bringing it, and she will put it IN my hand. She's not afraid of me. She just wants to show respect or something by giving me lots of space and she thinks I want her to immediately surrender the item. I need to be able to communicate that she needs to hold it longer.
ThePastoralFandog is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Old 01-04-2019, 06:53 PM
  #4
Senior Member
 
agility collie mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Mt Lebanon, PA
Posts: 378
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
So here is what I did. I sat and put the dumbbell between my knees which frees up my hands for clicking and rewarding.
Does she know how to touch? First have her touch the dumbbell. Click and treat. When she puts her mouth around it click and treat. Keep pressure on the dumbbell with your knees at first. As she become more proficient start to loosen your pressure with your knees. Keep raising the criteria until she will take it, you release the pressure and she holds it. Ask her to hold it. At first it will be only a second but ask for the drop quickly before she drops it so you can capture the behavior. Increase the time slowly. Go back if she starts dropping it again before you ask, to where she is successful. Hope this helps.

Last edited by agility collie mom; 01-04-2019 at 06:58 PM.
agility collie mom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2019, 08:43 AM
  #5
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: in the States
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
NOVEL WARNING

Julie will fetch and take but her possession drive is pretty much zero. She will spit pretty much anything out happily without even me glancing at her. I didn't teach her an out by threatening her but I may have taught her out before I let her develop joy in possession enough to hold stuff.

BACKGROUND for Clarity:
Julie is supposedly 12 years old? or nine? she wasn't my dog when the family got her for my brother so I'm not sure which one she is. No grey yet on her nose though.
She's quite food motivated and will just about attempt anything for any value level of food reward. She is a nervous dog and will be distracted if she feels threatened. Other types of distractions don't bother her and without threatening distractions she will focus really well.
She is smart, figures out many things already from luring and exaggerated body language (not sure what that's called in jargon) and from her younger days I taught her to understand marker training. I have more recently been resurrecting this type of system with her.
Julie has a habit of skirting my personal space especially in my front, and I've been trying to lure, invite, mark closeness, improvised front paw target, everything, and still she will not approach closer than six inches from my toes as I stand, though she does not seem wary of me.

I have been tug playing with her using tips from various youtube trainers with these steps, tried and reformed to get a system that seems to be working to a point:
1.Excite Julie, let her touch toy, drop toy, walk away (everything is happy and she's allowed to have it) followed by treat
2. slight tugs added, easy wins with treat
3. harder tugs, moderate wins, treat
4. any difficulty of win, run away, reward carry/follow with treat then more play
5. all above steps but trying to fade treat

With tug using any style of toy (rope, fabric tug with handle, tennis ball ring, leather tug with handle, etc) i am able to play, encourage a retrieve and even get a retrieve to hand. Her retrieve to hand is at around.... 70% accuracy I'd say and it's always praised and encouraged. If I attempt to just hold the toy as she holds it or if I do not already have my hand out she will drop it immediately and look at me like "I did it! Treat?"

With dumbbell she is more than willing to fetch it while it's active or static, bring it back, shove it into my hand, and that's it after I have it. I am experimenting with the following steps:
1. As she fetches the dumbbell I fake hold the end before she entirely has it in my hand and praise/mark that moment every time she retrieves the dumbbell.
2. While not fetching, I am creating an action that I intend to add to fetching later, which is holding my hand inwards and cupped slightly so that she can rest her chin on it comfortably. Marking for a solid contact at this point and will be working on duration hopefully that will go well.
3. I intend to combine step 1 and step 2 when they are solid.

I know that in all likelihood using the treat route to motivate her to play wasn't the smartest idea but previously Julie was extremely play inhibited. I have used moderate aversives in history but I have always been fair, I thought, about it and only when warranted (never in play) and now maybe I created too much of a bubble that I need to pop.

I want to, for fun, attempt to create a respectable competition style dumbbell retrieve, consisting of Julie fetching a placed or thrown dumbbell, with the extra close sit/watch at the end with the hold. It is an experiment in technique and communication which will serve as a learning experience for both Julie and I to help me serve her better as her step-dogmom and understand very well what can work for her. I understand it isn't going to be perfect. She is a pet dog with unknown genetics other than her guessed at breeds. I am working extra hard to be patient with her so she can be in a learning mood and not an obeying mood.
Even if I cannot get this image in my head expressed by her through work and learning, I would at least want to somehow communicate that she is allowed to be really in my space if I invite her.

/NOVEL WARNING

Thanks for your help everyone!
ThePastoralFandog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2019, 07:32 PM
  #6
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Texas
Posts: 851
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
E collars, prong collars,shock collars....some thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
. If you think aversion & collar pulling isnt horrible try wearing one & get someone to pull you forward & backward by it for a day & see how your neck feels. Or have a human do to you what aversion you used.
You might also be nice to the person for stopping, not becos it wasnt that bad. Dogs are the same- they will be happy its over, that doesnt mean it wasnt awful at the time.
Even not done roughly it still hurts & feels uncomfortable so I am glad to hear your not using aversion anymore! Dogs have feelings- they feel deeply
I tend to think very similar thoughts about prong collars and shock or E stimulation collars.


Especially in situations where the dog is nervous, anxious, or stressed like reactive dogs, aggressive acting dogs, etc. I tend to worry the most about the long lasting negative effects that may not show up until later.

A dog may very quickly stop the behavior when pulled/pronged or shocked --but they are doing it to avoid the pain. Learning by pain. Or threat. Or similar.

But--always my question....does the dog ever learn to feel good thoughts about the situation or is the dog just suppressing his/her behavior for now until one day the situation becomes too stressful... and the old behavior comes out in response to the stress?

This man came in my shop one day and was telling me how he fosters dogs..(yea!)and how is is using a shock collar on his rescue lab (arggh) so I asked him politely if I could inquire about what situations/applications he was using the e collar for and why he chose that method.

He said sure and told me he simply could not risk having his dog continue to be aggressive around small children. If he shocked the dogs around the kids then he figured that it would teach the dog not to bite them or be aggressive to them.

Huh??

I told him that my theory on this is quite the opposite---the dog will not "learn" to not bite, (since most dogs bites are fear/stress/anxiety related) but rather associate children with pain and discomfort, thus increase the likeliness of a future bite.

In other words, the dog thinks "Hmmm, I seem to get shocked when children are present...this must mean children are to be feared. Yikes, kids are kinda scary, I better not trust them. Maybe I should adopt some aggressive looking behaviors to keep them at a distance so they can't harm me."

The man listened, heard my theory, and said "Wow I never looked at it that way before!!!" from his reaction to this new way of thinking I am betting he ditched that collar and never used it around kiddos again. (Hopefully)

Just my thoughts on these aversive devices.....I'm sure others have a different opinion.
AthenaLove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2019, 11:56 PM
  #7
Dog Forum ModeraTHOR
 
kmes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 11,909
Mentioned: 486 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Have only skimmed so forgive me if I repeat any suggestions.

Try teaching the hold and front separately....

For a close front, look at how your dog actually moves her body into sit. you need a tuck sit (front feet are stationary and rear tucks forward into a sit) for a close front. If she rocks (rear feet remain stationary and front move back so the dog can sit) then she will always be farther away from you than she should.
Also my obedience friends teach a chin target to their body to really get their dogs close with heads high.

For the hold, ime ping pong duration of the hold and if possable also ask for pulling on the item to help encourage a good grip.

Put the hold and front together only when both pieces are reliable.
Posted via Mobile Device

Last edited by kmes; 03-30-2019 at 11:58 PM.
kmes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to teach your dog to respect your space, I guess Shadowmom Dog Training and Behavior 8 01-10-2018 10:09 PM
My dog stares into space xrc6 General Dog Discussion 5 08-22-2017 04:02 AM
Is it okay to give the dog more than one space in the house? Jenibelle General Dog Discussion 11 04-18-2016 01:17 PM
Our Chocolate Labrador and miniature dachshund destroying a space hopper Tadpole Dog Pictures and Videos 1 12-16-2015 11:27 AM


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.1.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd. Runs best on HiVelocity Hosting.