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Stop dog-on-dog aggression at home

This is a discussion on Stop dog-on-dog aggression at home within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; Originally Posted by Shadowmom .... Cesar was getting problem dogs that no one else could help. Apples and oranges. ... . Say what?! - What ...

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Old 01-01-2018, 07:50 PM
  #21
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Exclamation NOBODY else could possibly help the dogs on CM/DW's shows?! -- Who sez?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowmom View Post

.... Cesar was getting problem dogs that no one else could help. Apples and oranges.
...
.

Say what?! -
What sort of cases do U think vet-behaviorists get, on a daily basis? It's not all "my cat pees in my philodendron, what should i do?", ya know.

Plenty of trainers across the USA accept dogs WITH human-aggro histories, up to & including severe bites, as B-Mod clients.
I'm one of them. Mr Millan isn't the ONLY; he's just the only one on Nat'l Geo's cable channels.

Besides which, most dogs on the Nat'l-Geo episodes that i saw [Season 1 / Ep 1, thru all of August-2009] didn't have severe issues - they were minor problems, not major. Dog reactivity [or even dog-aggro] & resource guarding are relatively simple issues; they take time, not drama, to solve.
When presented with a really difficult issue, Sep-Anx, what was his answer? -- to lay SHOCK-MATS under the windows where the dog had gnawed on the sills, trying to escape!
[oh, yeah, that'll totally help... Not.]

Claiming "he's the only one who could help these dogs" is clearly not true.

Here's a short 'n sweet article about misuse of the term 'dominance' -
ClickerSolutions Training Articles -- The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory

IMO, Mr Millan frequently warps terms to such an extent, they're no longer recognizable, let alone used or defined as anyone else does. Terms in science, psychology, behavior, & other disciplines, just like words in everyday conversation, have definitions. Without some ground rules, communication - VERBAL communication, between humans! - becomes impossible.
He's photogenic, he can be charming & entertaining, he knows very little about dogs, dog behavior, dog cognition, learning theory, or any other applicable practical knowledge, & he's single-handedly revived the cult of Koehler-style jerk training, a direct descendant of WW-2 "make 'em or break 'em" boot camp training for donated pet-dogs to be transformed into combat-ready K9 troops.

Doesn't it seem at all odd, that Junior at the age of THREE still hadn't been taught to sit on cue?
Ian Dunbar taught his dog to sit! - while he was being interviewed to be included in CM's planned book.
And that, in my book, LOL, is pretty doggone pathetic.

- terry

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Old 01-01-2018, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post
.



Plenty of trainers across the USA accept dogs WITH human-aggro histories, up to & including severe bites, as B-Mod clients.
I'm one of them. Mr Millan isn't the ONLY; he's just the only one on Nat'l Geo's cable channels.



.

Oh my......is this the root of your discontentment?

Pride goeth before the fall and a haughty spirit before the fall.

Looking down on others has its perils.
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Old 01-01-2018, 08:14 PM
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I'm not going to argue, you're ignoring my point about insulting his education and immigration status. And not responding to my stories about my cats pack behavior and my last dog needing a strong leader.
I've studied learning theory I use all kinds of cognitive behavioral therapy in my work with people daily, along with attachment theory and all kinds of other evidence based human theories.
My current escape artist dog who I should have named Houdini still has outsmarted me dozens of times by taking off a harness while wiggling through a closed door, jumping over, through, around, chewing, digging, opening and finding every possible way to escape possible that I never would have thought of. My academic intelligence and master's degrees pale next to his clever intelligence for finding any way out of any enclosure he's in. He even took two air conditioners out of windows and broke the screens and was about to jump out the third floor windows before I raced back upstairs to get him. If he can't get out of the car and wants me back he blares the horn lol. Proof you don't need any education at all to be a genius in some ways.
I know all the learning theories and still at times find timeouts necessary for the safety of my one cat who can be very aggressive with new dogs to prevent him torturing a dog into attacking him. I had to be a strong leader with my last dog to keep him safe, not to mention my younger horse while he was a stallion. I didn't abuse the horse I chose to redirect him with work when he was too feisty as I never wanted to pick a fight he'd win and get myself hurt.
Predominantly I'm positive to teach new things and as much as I can be. This post started talking about training and managing two fighting dogs and how to do so. All you want to do is bash Cesar. Not very positive yourself and just makes you look bad.
Why don't you address the original questions brought up with how your methods would work?
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Old 01-01-2018, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorib64 View Post
Wait. The whole alpha dog, pack leader, stuff you hear everywhere, is controversial?

I am a new owner and new to this site
I think it is no longer really controversial - it is pretty much debunked and rejected by successful trainers. There are still some old-school holdouts and some people that will swear by its validity because they do see results. They just usually misunderstand why they are seeing those results and haven't learned ways to get better results.

I once adopted a Malamute to join our sled team. The previous owner warned us that he was lazy and that every now and then you had to pin him to the ground to remind him who's in charge.

On our first few runs, I found that he seemed nervous and his heart wasn't in it. So, periodically, I would stop the team and walk up to give him some encouragement. He would cower as I approached. After a couple of weeks of this, he realized nobody was going to try to "dominate" anybody, and that we were just out to run. As soon as he figured that out, he pulled harder than anyone - and LOVED to go out.
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Old 01-01-2018, 08:31 PM
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Arrow Honorary degrees are not academic chops.

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Originally Posted by Bob The Dog View Post

... Millan actually was awarded a couple of honorary degrees, one was a master's degree from Bergin University of Canine Studies and the other made him the third American to receive an honorary diploma from Chulalongkorn University, in Bangkok Thailand.
Millan was honored for his humanitarian services to rescue, rehabilitate and re-home abandoned and abused dogs around the world.
...
.

Honorary degrees are given by many colleges & universities - so?
They are symbolic; they don't magically confer knowledge or wisdom.

As for "rehabilitating" dogs "around the world", perhaps U don't know that in CM/DW's original "Dog Psychology Center" in L.A., he was being paid to board dozens of dogs with serious behavior problems - many of them, aggression cases with past bite histories.
He was warehousing these dogs - not "rehabilitating" them, but feeding & housing them, & being paid a pretty penny to do it, by non-profits operating on shoestring budgets. // When he decided to buy a large property for his "new" DPC, he notified the various organizations & gave them just 30-days to remove all the dogs... over the holiday period [T-day to Xmas].
Gee, what a great guy! :bats eyelashes: All heart. /sarcasm.

I actually figured out how much he was making, multiplying the # of dogs X the cost per day that he charged to keep them - he was doing just fine, making a very tidy sum, renting space out for dogs who had nowhere else to go.
And of course, evicting his problem tenants was his choice, clearly; finding somewhere else to PUT them was the sponsoring organization's problem, not his. // I'm sure if U dig, U can find some of the outraged charities talking to reporters at the time, furious at being given such short notice, & worried that they'd be forced to euthanize the dogs Cesar had been boarding for them.

Mr Millan would have been charged with animal cruelty if he'd been in the USA when he seriously mistreated a Chihuahua in Mexico, who had congenital damage to both her hind legs - he was trying to force her to "walk right".
Lucky for him, he was in Mexico, & no charges were brought.
Many of the things he did on camera would have been prosecutable, done in real life & witnessed by an ACO. So i'm unimpressed by the Thai university awarding him an honorary degree for his "humanitarian" efforts on behalf of suffering dogs - he's personally inflicted considerable emotional & physical suffering, on camera, seen by millions of ppl.

- terry

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Old 01-01-2018, 08:47 PM
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Talking Ha-ha-ha!...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob The Dog View Post

Oh my......is this the root of your discontentment?
Pride goeth before the fall and a haughty spirit before the fall.

Looking down on others has its perils.
.

sheesh. // He's in CALIFORNIA, what "competition" could there conceivably be??!!
Think someone from the East Coast will ship their dog to him to be "fixed"?

To say nothing of the fact that i'm not bragging - as i said, not once but several times, THERE ARE MANY trainers who work with aggression cases, successfully, & i am merely one of the many.
Quite a few are members of TDF / Truly Dog-Friendly, or are Certified Canine Consultants / members of IAABC, or PPG members - all of whom eschew any of the aversive tools & confrontational techniques so blithely promoted by Mr Millan.

Also, U can forget the biblical dire warnings, bub, LOL - i'm a born-again pagan. I was not "looking down on" anyone -
I merely explained his background. // U obviously put a different interpretation on "undocumented immigrant" than i do.

- terry

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Old 01-01-2018, 08:51 PM
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Oh and household cats absolutely do form bonded pairs and dynamics. My first set of cats that all died years ago. My two cats that were in my first apartment with me, childhood cat Felina and Pepper. They lived alone with me for years then my mom moved in with me when she became disabled and brought her two cats, my other childhood cat Ginger and Emmy. Felona and Ginger hated each other since day one and coexisted at best, if they fought Pepper would defend Felina. He and Emmy we're best buddies fast and used to run around in a pair playing all the time except at night he'd come back to sleep with me and Felina. Felina was my childhood cat and mine, loved me tolerated anyone else, grew to love Pepper. She lived to be 20 and died on my bed with me petting her. Pepper died at 12 of cancer they died two months apart. Emmy was devastated without Pepper and stopped eating for a week.
Two bonded pairs.
I adopted Skye and Mandy together from a shelter, Mandy 5 year old female, Skye 5 month old male hyper kitten. Mandy always acted like mom to Skye would wash and groom him like a kitten and hold him down and sleep and cuddle with him and me. If he pulled any nonsense she'd cuff him across the head and send him flying and he wouldn't mess with him. Then I gave my mom Tiger who found my mom's cancer and she still had Emmy. They bonded and years later when I had to euthanize Emmy at home from cancer Tiger lay right next to her and said goodbye. He never liked any of the other cats much but tolerated them. Bonded pair, just like Skye and Mandy.
I took in Inky and Fawn, feral adult Inky and abused stray Fawn who were a bonded pair outside cuddling on an old chair daily and Fawn was sick and sneezing. Fawn had pneumonia and barely survived. They remained best buddies for life. Inky fell completely head over paws in love with Mandy. He followed her everywhere, he cuddled to her, he meowed softly to her, he rubbed all against her, he made a complete fool and nuisance of himself over her. She'd cuff him away so she could eat in peace. He glared at Skye when she groomed Skye like a kitten. He was feral and hated me yet I'd wake up to find him glaring at me on the bed just to snuggle close to Mandy because she loved sleeping with me and Skye. He'd stare at me wondering why she let me pat her when she could be cuddling with him. She seemed to love him she was very sweet natured but he was the most devoted to her that ive ever seen. They were all neutered. When she died years later he was so devastated I thought he was going to die too. Then Fawn died a month later. She was 16 and Fawn 14 and inky nearly did die. Turns out he had diabetes and ear and tooth infections but never let me get close to me. For his health I locked him in the bathroom and tamed him. He became the sweetest tamest most loving cat that I had two years with before he too died from cancer. I have another cat Ruby that bonded with Skye and the two of them loved stalking the place and ganging up on the other cats and playing tricks on the dog. They're still best buddies and groom each other and eat together and sleep together. Bonded pair again. Ruby and inky also bonded and would cuddle and play together. Yet another bonded pair. Mandy was dominant over Skye and Inky. No questions about it. Ruby was dominant over Inky most of the time. Skye and Ruby are more equal but fight a lot more. The dynamics and interactions are truly fascinating. All of them were dominant over both my last dog and my current dog. But I also very firmly enforce that since the large dogs could easily kill the cats accidentally just by playing too rough.
So yep they definitely form bonds and pair up and one often is dominant over the other, both in households and outside. Inky, Fawn and Tiger were all outside together, Inky and Fawn were already very bonded why else would I have taken in a feral adult cat that drew blood when I tried to pet him. Tiger and Fawn peacefully coexisted and Tiger and Inky avoided each other and were not friends.
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Old 01-01-2018, 09:28 PM
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Cats are different than dogs, and of course they form bonded pairs lions live in prides, cheetahs remain pretty close with family members for years and tigers are not as unsocial as we think they are. Cats, for lack of a better word they have stronger personalities as a general rule. Which is a strange way to say that some cats love water and some cats hate water. Some cats love living in a social group and some cats love to be loners. Cats as a general rule love schedules. Cats see people as really big, kinda stupid cats. Dogs see people as people, most of the time they don't think that people are dogs.

My problem with Mr. Millan is that he seems to have a one size fits all approach. Which is never good. He treats a bold aggressive dog the same way he treats a fear aggressive dog the same as he treats a separation anxiety dog. I have had dogs that would do okay under his dominance theory training, I have have had dogs that would shut down completely under his training style. Dogs are individuals and you have to tailor what you do to their behavior and style. There are situations where clicker training isn't the best option, but there are situations where being confrontational and physical with your dog is going to get you bit.

I am also not a huge fan that he says "calm and assertive" its a great idea and can be wonderfully helpful but its difficult to define and hard train a human to be that. Its a behavior pattern or trait not a training style. It is basically saying "be calm in a crisis" but not telling them how to be calm or understanding that its harder for some people to be calm then for others. In addition, it gives a excuse for why a pets behavior did not improve. It becomes Fido didn't improve because you as an owner are not calm and assertive, not Fido didn't improve because it wasn't the right training system and we should try something else. Which can be quite damaging to some owners because it can discourage them from continuing to train and work with their dog.
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:40 AM
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Arrow Who asked? -- I didn't see a query, & it's a Q i've already answered, in any case.

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Originally Posted by Shadowmom View Post

...
Why don't you address the original questions brought up with how your methods would work?
.

I did not see any Qs posed, asking "how MY methods would work".

As i think i already said, former clients in Va Beach who had adopted dogs with what turned out to be serious dog-reactivity [attempts to attack, not merely barking / lunging], dog-aggro, & human-aggro, with past bite histories, all successfully did B-Mod themselves over a period of months, & at the end of that time, their dogs were not dog-park buddies nor were the human-aggro dogs entirely trustworthy around strangers AT HOME, OFF-LEASH -
but every dog was safe to handle on leash, in the community; they could be walked on the street, taken on the bike/ped paths, go to the vet's, etc, & not try to kill or maim anyone, k9 or human.

Every one of them met me for an initial eval, which took about 2-hrs, then i wrote an extensive review of what i'd seen of their dog's behavior, & a 2nd separate tailor-made list for B-Mod.
They also purchased a copy of Click to Calm & used it as they DIY manual. // Some needed to phone me, or e-mail, when problems arose; most did the rest solo.

"MY methods" are no different than anyone else's - it's classic DS/CC, DeSensitize & Counter-Condition. Nobody holds a patent on it. It's straightforward, & in its essence, simple: expose the learner to their trigger under controlled circs, at a distance / volume / level that doesn't cause a reaction.
Pair the presence of the trigger with Good Things, AS DEFINED by the learner.
Slowly increase the intensity of exposure & introduce distractions / complications. Keep it as low-stress as possible; brief, frequent, successful sessions.

- terry

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Old 01-02-2018, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post
.

Honorary degrees are given by many colleges & universities - so?
They are symbolic; they don't magically confer knowledge or wisdom.

How many do you have and from what institutions? Do you have a link to your training web site which shows your successes and testimonies rehabilitating aggressive dogs?

As for "rehabilitating" dogs "around the world", perhaps U don't know that in CM/DW's original "Dog Psychology Center" in L.A., he was being paid to board dozens of dogs with serious behavior problems - many of them, aggression cases with past bite histories.
He was warehousing these dogs - not "rehabilitating" them, but feeding & housing them, & being paid a pretty penny to do it,

I am familiar with his original DPC and here's an excerpt of those days.


"Back then, my rate to work with a dog was $10 a day per dog. I couldn't afford rent, so the arrangement worked out perfectly for both of us. I am sure to many the area looked like a dump, but to me, it was a palace! I had so much time with my pack back then. I used to walk more, be in the mountains more, and challenge the pack more. We used to take trips to the store together. One of our favorite destinations was this small Mexican meat market a few blocks away. I would walk the pack there and buy them huge hunks of raw meat. Then, for the entire twenty minute walk back, they had to hold those pieces in their mouth without eating them! When they got back to the warehouse, they'd find a place to cool down and enjoy their treat. It was a great challenge, but what a scene we must have made a pack of Rottweilers off-leash running with meat hanging out of their mouths following that Mexican guy. It was amazing, just beautiful!

Doesn't sound like he just "warehoused" the dogs as you suggest


So i'm unimpressed by the Thai university awarding him an honorary degree for his "humanitarian" efforts on behalf of suffering dogs

Of course you are unimpressed but obviously others were not.
- terry

.
My responses in red above as well.

Oh, the name is Bob not "bub" and I'm not interested in whatever religion you are or are not.

I appreciate the discourse but it seems to be taking a personal note to it, so I will end my contributions to this thread with a final few thoughts.

First, I'm not even a big fan of Millan but I do subscribe to his "calm and assertive" emphasis along with his exercise, obedience and affection thoughts. I can think of many other dog trainers that I follow more closely than Millan since I pick and choose, have I mentioned that before?

As far as the " biblical dire warnings" they were more a play on your name but still appropriate in the sense that you seem to put people down from what I have read so far. There is an air of defensiveness and high and mighty in your words and advice at times and I appreciate why. Dog training has become more of a "science" than ever and along with this has also come an air of my way or the highway or an attitude of if you don't see it exactly as I do then you are an infidel of sorts, heresy almost. I will continue forward keeping an open mind as I pick and choose from all the resources available and do what I believe is best for Bob and our relationship.

If you ever hear me completely trash a popular successful dog trainer in entirety please remind me that I'm the one who likes to pick and choose, did I mention that yet?

Best of luck to future successes with your dog training.
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