Possible trachea collapse from prong collar?/Rant about bad trainer - Page 2

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Possible trachea collapse from prong collar?/Rant about bad trainer

This is a discussion on Possible trachea collapse from prong collar?/Rant about bad trainer within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; He (the Russian Dog Wizard) is quite the self-promoter, isn't he? Oh well.......

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Old 05-14-2016, 06:00 PM
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He (the Russian Dog Wizard) is quite the self-promoter, isn't he? Oh well....
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Old 05-15-2016, 07:14 AM
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Sorry I was MIA for a little bit, Blu was neutered on Friday so I've been preoccupied.

I'm really glad I'm not the only one who thinks this guy is a jerk and that everything that happened was really unnecessary. To be completely honest, I'm a pretty lax dog parent and I mainly just want them to be well behaved enough so that my life is easy (e.g. no begging for food, getting in and out of the car easily, not jumping all over me when I come home, etc.). I told my dad that as much as I appreciated him offering to pay for my dogs' training, I didn't see myself being willing to reinforce those methods in my own home, so it would be a waste of time.

Olive is doing fine so far, she is breathing normally and is her usual energetic self with no problems. It just concerned me that she would cough when she pulled with her harness. The step-in collar hits pretty low on her chest, so I don't see any reason why she should be coughing. That being said, she is pretty strong. I switched to a front lead harness yesterday and she completely stopped pulling, so I don't think I'll have to worry about that anymore. She will be seeing the vet at 11am today so, we will see how it goes. Hopefully the x-rays look good, will keep you all posted.
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Old 05-15-2016, 09:17 AM
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If you need training tutorials, look for Kikopup, ZakGeorge and other reward-based trainers on Youtube. I know that they have posted videos at least for loose leash walking. I think this forum also has some sort of tutorial/often asked basic manner training advice threads pinned somewhere.

Big boo for the trainer. His method is unethical and working with people he should listen to his customers.
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Old 05-15-2016, 02:27 PM
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So far Olive isn't pulling on the front lead, so I'm hoping it stays that way. She's gotten a lot better since I got her, but when she sees another dog she gets really excited and it's hard to calm her down.

Her chest x-rays came back pretty good. No trachea collapse or damage to the wind pipe but the vet did note that she her trachea narrows around her chest area, which is normal for Pugs and some Puggles. Her heart and lungs look good, but she definitely recommended that I avoid using a flat collar, prong collar, or choke collar because it could irritate her throat pretty bad. I think this is all the proof I need that there is no one-size-fits-all training method to prevent pulling.

The vet said that if Olive starts having problems with the front lead (e.g. Pulling and/or coughing) that I should try out one of those head harnesses like the Gentle Leader. I've never used one or known anyone who has used one, can anyone tell me about these harnesses?
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Old 05-15-2016, 04:12 PM
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Are you, by chance, located in the South Bay or Beach Cities? I can recommend a great trainer.
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Old 05-15-2016, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jksob View Post
So far Olive isn't pulling on the front lead, so I'm hoping it stays that way. She's gotten a lot better since I got her, but when she sees another dog she gets really excited and it's hard to calm her down.

Her chest x-rays came back pretty good. No trachea collapse or damage to the wind pipe but the vet did note that she her trachea narrows around her chest area, which is normal for Pugs and some Puggles. Her heart and lungs look good, but she definitely recommended that I avoid using a flat collar, prong collar, or choke collar because it could irritate her throat pretty bad. I think this is all the proof I need that there is no one-size-fits-all training method to prevent pulling.

The vet said that if Olive starts having problems with the front lead (e.g. Pulling and/or coughing) that I should try out one of those head harnesses like the Gentle Leader. I've never used one or known anyone who has used one, can anyone tell me about these harnesses?

I'm glad that the x-rays came back good! My boy is a Chi x Dach, and his throat is very sensitive, I tried numerous no choke harnesses and almost every one of them that I tried would cause him to choke, or simply did not fit him correctly. What's known as a shoulder collar did fit him and never choked him, the one I ended up using was the ChokeFree VelPro Mesh, the problem I had with it was that he could slip it very easily if I was not careful, and in the end it started causing him back problems because if he pulled the edge, closest to his tail, pushed into his spine and was causing a pinched nerve. I now use this harness https://www.etsy.com/listing/1988995...home_active_39 so far he doesn't mind wearing it, the store owner customizes so it fits great, and unless he pulls really hard it does not choke him. I no longer recommend the ChokeFree harness if the dog really pulls or is a harness slipper, but do recommend the Tiny Trotter.

The Gentle Leaders do work but most dogs do not like wearing them so you will likely have to work to get her comfortable wearing it and it being used to guide her. It is not recommended for dogs that bolt after things since the dog could potentially hurt it's neck when it hits the end of the leash.
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Old 05-16-2016, 02:24 PM
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I'm glad that the x-rays came back good! My boy is a Chi x Dach, and his throat is very sensitive, I tried numerous no choke harnesses and almost every one of them that I tried would cause him to choke, or simply did not fit him correctly. What's known as a shoulder collar did fit him and never choked him, the one I ended up using was the ChokeFree VelPro Mesh, the problem I had with it was that he could slip it very easily if I was not careful, and in the end it started causing him back problems because if he pulled the edge, closest to his tail, pushed into his spine and was causing a pinched nerve. I now use this harness https://www.etsy.com/listing/1988995...home_active_39 so far he doesn't mind wearing it, the store owner customizes so it fits great, and unless he pulls really hard it does not choke him. I no longer recommend the ChokeFree harness if the dog really pulls or is a harness slipper, but do recommend the Tiny Trotter.

The Gentle Leaders do work but most dogs do not like wearing them so you will likely have to work to get her comfortable wearing it and it being used to guide her. It is not recommended for dogs that bolt after things since the dog could potentially hurt it's neck when it hits the end of the leash.
Thanks for the info! I'll definitely check this out if I need a new harness. It's so hard to find a good harness for Olive, you'd think that they would have better options at pet stores for dogs with different shapes. Even the front lead was really hard to adjust because of her chest size and it kept sliding down the front of her shoulders at first.

Also great point you make about the Gentle Leader. Olive's problem isn't really pulling on the whole walk, but when she sees another dog or she finds a scent she's really interested in. I don't think that a Gentle Leader would be a good option for her. She gets super excited and just yanks the leash--she would probably forget she was wearing the harness and hurt her neck.
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Old 05-16-2016, 02:27 PM
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SuzanLynn, I'm in North Orange County. Do you by chance know of any trainers who could help get me into agility or scent work?
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Old 10-15-2018, 07:14 PM
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Sorry that happened to you.

This “trainer” is old school and gives some very good balanced trainers a bad name.

Personally my belief is reward based positive training through classical and operant conditioning. And in very very bad situations some reminders of who is in charge. Never a physical correction that goes farther than a slight pull of a FLAT leash.and 99% of the time I can get by without even that.

It just doesn’t take that much force to calm a dog, even my working line dogs that start out jumping over my head at the sight of a tug toy or ball only take some slight show of dominance such as controlling the ball and hovering over them for a minute or two and they get it. No slamming dogs around no violence whatsoever. Dogs WANT to please us so why mess that up!

After the reminder we’re right back to treats and learning or tugs/ball/reward.

A prong collar is not meant to be used with sudden jerks.....this guy is for lack of a better term an idiot. A prong collar is only meant to pinch the skin of the dog when they pull it’s kind of like having the keys to your own jail cell.

A choke chain will definately damage a dogs trachea and well of course of the prong collar is positioned just right and jerked...it could cause damage.

As I read on through I see your dogs x rays came back good so I’m glad for that. Stay away from that trainer!
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:34 AM
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I have never used a prong collar but know they are banned in certain areas because of the damage it can cause. I do think that given that there are prongs and one wrong tug could certainly cause damage. I hate saying this but a study has shown a GSD suffered severe brain injury from a prong collar, so I would say when in doubt, try all alternatives before a prong collar. Hope your dog feels better soon.
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