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Old 05-24-2018, 09:53 PM
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PDS Dogs

There is a thread about a Doberman who was purchased as a protection dog who arrived in terrible condition both mentally and physically, and while I donít think the facility that sold the dog was directly mentioned, mentions of PDS (protection dog sales) was mentioned, and after a quick YouTube search I found some videos of them displaying their dogs training.


Is it just me, or does this dog look absolutely terrified?
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:00 PM
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Here’s another one I found. Wow. The panting, lip licking, whale eyes, and yawning.
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Old 05-24-2018, 10:05 PM
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Didn’t even realize the woman in the second video actually hits the dog on the face and side to “demonstrate”. I suppose perhaps for something like protection dogs this is something they have to be tolerant to, however it doesn’t sit well with me at all, and the dog is clearly terrified. At this point this dog can’t even be a dog, and it’s just sad to see humans use dogs in this way.
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Old 05-25-2018, 08:35 AM
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No, I don't see a "terrified" dog in either video.


The dogs are readily offering engagement and show no avoidance behavior whatsoever.



Having a few higher drive dogs myself over the years, I'll suggest that some of what you are seeing is simple displacement behaviors. As an example, all of my GSDs over the years have yawned and lip licked when they are full of anticipation ( just as I want ) but momentarily having to maintain a particular obedience until released. Dogs aren't stupid and know routines and when the nature of a routine leads to an indulgence of the dog's drive upon release they can act like a little kid or some adults and be all fidgety etc. unless the visual stimuli suffices. Many dogs just use displacement behaviors to lighten the load of exhibiting impulse control at times.



I've posted a video or two of my current dog training with me and there is some lip licking at times and I'd like to believe my dog is hardly "terrified" of me.
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:34 AM
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I’ve rewatched the videos and we really must have differing opinions on what a stressed dog looks like.
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cos View Post
Iíve rewatched the videos and we really must have differing opinions on what a stressed dog looks like.

I guess we do, no big deal.
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:23 AM
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Lol I'm totally not qualified to critique those videos, but to my eye the gsd looked like it was lacking some confidence.....didnt seem scared to me but I just didnt see a ton of confidence there. I'm probably wrong, I'm no trainer- the dog just looked alittle flat to me.
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Old 05-25-2018, 02:16 PM
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Neither dog looked stressed or terrified to me. The Belgian malinois looked to be anticipating his work, but not necessarily on a bad way.
My dog licks his lips when he anticipates treats or bites of my steak, I'm pretty sure he's not terrified! I asked a trainer recently and she said that dogs can yawn when they're tired too and that it's not always a sign of stress. If you're bonded with your dog they can "catch" our yawns just from seeing us yawn just like humans can.
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Old 05-25-2018, 07:44 PM
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One behavior such as lip licking doesn't define whether or not a dog is stressed- you have to look at the entire body language.

And looking at the body language, especially of the first dog, I agree with Cos. Maybe saying the dog is "terrified" is reading too much into it, but he definitely doesn't look happy or comfortable. He's putting out a lot of stress signals- everything from his low posture, his ears back, the expression and lines on his face, whale eye, yawning, heavy breathing and panting, and lip licking. That doesn't look like a dog that's excited to work. He looks very nervous and his movement looks cautious and calculated. I've seen lots of videos of trainers doing heelwork and obedience with German Shepherds, and those dogs are practically prancing, their tails are up, their ears are pricked and alert. That first dog does not look happy- he looks nervous.

The Malinois looks better than the GSD. Can't comment much on her video because her body language changes based on who's handling her and what behaviors they're asking her to perform and engage in.

But overall the GSD in the first video does NOT happy or excited at all.



I did think that if they live in Kentucky it might be very hot and that's why the dogs are panting so heavily.
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Old 05-27-2018, 03:53 PM
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I think both dogs look stressed in the videos shown, though I'd be hard pressed to say why those particular dogs might be stressed, and whether it is detrimental or not based on such short video clips and the fact that I am not a pro. I will say that IME this sort of stress signaling behavior (outside of dogs with serious temperament issues) seems most common with dogs that are trained primarily through compulsion, particularly e-collar correction, which allows for so much more "fine tuning" vs other forms of physical correction. My experience has been that precise exercises cause much greater frustration and stress vs more vague forms of the same action. My dog can attention heel for an entire walk, no problem; but if I begin to nitpick his position, his focus point, etc he begins to show signs of mental fatigue much more quickly. I can abate those signs by allowing him greater reward more often, to bring him back up and sharpen his focus on the task at hand, but if not, he'll sometimes try to completely disengage and wander off to sniff the ground nearby/mark or dig (he's a sort of insecure dog, so those are his go to displacement behaviors).

Regarding the dogs' behavior when the helpers were interacting with them; I would imagine it is difficult for a dog with anything but the best nerves to have a given individual be friend OR foe, changing at the drop of a hat, with different expected responses for either set of human behavior, plus the added pressure of knowing that a wrong choice will result in correction. It is a lot to ask of a dog, and I would imagine is a big part of the reason why "real" personal protection dogs are hard to come by (vs bite sport appropriate dogs).

It's pretty common for helpers in bite sports and PP to "hit" or physically pressure (leaning over, driving the dog back) a dog when they are on the bite to show that the dog is committed, as a dog who quits when an attacker fights back is virtually useless. Some dogs will become more intense and fight harder when physically pressured. Many times, the helper uses equipment which is designed to make more noise than impact, as the intention is not to injure the dog, just introduce it to physical/spatial pressures, and/or test its commitment to the bite. My current dog tugs like a fiend (a trained behavior- he didn't tug when I got him), but is inclined to crumple under pressure (stepping into him, touching him while he's on the tug)- he's really a soft, kind of wimpy dog so this is not at all surprising, but for dogs that appear to have fairly solid nerves, it can be more revealing.
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