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OTC calmatives - what R they, Y use 'em, How they work...

This is a discussion on OTC calmatives - what R they, Y use 'em, How they work... within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; Originally Posted by PoppyKenna ... The best of the bunch was probably the Zylkene for my Chisum and it didn't really touch the issue ... ...

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Old 10-27-2017, 06:28 PM
  #11
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Arrow Zylkene: zero personal experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppyKenna View Post

... The best of the bunch was probably the Zylkene for my Chisum and it didn't really touch the issue ...


I presume U're in the UK? - as that's the only place i've seen Zylkene mentioned / recommended.
I only know that it's somehow related to milk - i've never seen it. used it, nada.
No personal experience, no second-hand from a client or fellow trainer; i've only seen it mentioned on-line.
Some ppl find it helpful, some not - it seems to be often recommended for cats.


FWIW, here's a study -
Effects of alpha-casozepine (Zylkene) versus selegiline hydrochloride (Selgian, Anipryl) on anxiety disorders in dogs - ScienceDirect

38 dogs, 56-day trial, Zylkene vs Selgian.
It was found comparable in effect & QUOTE,
"...both products were efficient to decrease the EDED score & no statistical difference was found between their success score.
... Due to this efficacy, & to its safety, Zylkene should be considered an option by the veterinary surgeon for the biological management of anxiety beside the compulsory behavior modifications."


Note that they underline the obvious: B-Mod still needs to be done - any calmative is simply an aid, as is any Rx med.

NOT DOGS but related -
One nephew has ADHD & in childhood, was given Ritalin - but never given any behavioral intervention, or help with coping skills. // He still has problems with impulse control, goes from irritation to rage without much in between, & threatens to set ppl afire, or burn down buildings, when he's angry.

- terry

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Old 10-27-2017, 07:02 PM
  #12
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Arrow Ttouch Body-wrap



I've also used the Ttouch Body-wrap, which is a wide Ace bandage wrapped with light pressure across the chest, over the shoulders, under the barrel, & either tied or safety-pinned at the waist [half-wrap] or run around the butt & secured [full wrap].

here's a PDF describing it & a couple of cases, by a fellow USA-apdt trainer -
http://bluedogk9.ca/wp-content/uploads/Merritt_MA10.pdf

& here are 2 sets of B4 & after, of those dogs:
ABBY:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqTqh28FA-g

KYLIE:
excerpt of Kylie
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=.../2/Gs6OLs8weM0


Ppl are often tempted to leave the Wrap on "all the time" - but the dog needs to experience the Wrap as a distinct sensation for it to retain its effect. Think of the sensation of putting on a bathrobe, or a sweater, then wearing it around the house. Within 10-mins, the discrete feeling of that fabric on skin is lost - our nerves habituate, & unless something significant changes [we spill iced-tea on the sleeve, & it seeps thru], the garment isn't sensorily noticed.

Wraps go on for 20 to 30-mins; then they come off. If U are still in a stressful setting, give the dog some distance B4 removing the Wrap; sit a bit, or walk around at a distance. Wait 10 to 15-mins before putting it back on, & again it stays on for 20 to 30-mins.
They're not clothing - Wraps are behavioral tools, & to retain their efficacy, they need to be used consciously, for limited periods, while U are paying attn to the dog.

- terry

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Old 10-27-2017, 07:55 PM
  #13
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I?m in Kansas actually, definitely not the UK.

My vet recommended the zylkene, along with the other OTC calmatives. But both she and my dog?s vet behaviorist agreed that they wouldn?t do much and that prescription meds were necessary.

I?m all for studies, I?m just saying - I sank quite a bit of money into OTC stuff and it didn?t do anything.

I will admit that my dog had pretty severe anxiety. It?s possible that a run of the mill nervous dog would benefit greatly. I describe my dog as reactive but have found when I interact with other ?reactive? dogs they aren?t on the same level at all.
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppyKenna View Post
I?m in Kansas actually, definitely not the UK.

My vet recommended the zylkene, along with the other OTC calmatives. But both she and my dog?s vet behaviorist agreed that they wouldn?t do much and that prescription meds were necessary.

I?m all for studies, I?m just saying - I sank quite a bit of money into OTC stuff and it didn?t do anything.

I will admit that my dog had pretty severe anxiety. It?s possible that a run of the mill nervous dog would benefit greatly. I describe my dog as reactive but have found when I interact with other ?reactive? dogs they aren?t on the same level at all.
Same. Meanwhile, my dog's anxiety got worse and worse. She should of been on meds right away.

My second dog, was so fearful when I got her that she wouldn't allow anyone to touch her. She'd been through major trauma, locked inside her house as it burned down, never been socialized, etc. We put her on meds within a month of her adoption and I've done a ton of behavioral work with her. She's off the meds now and is doing great.

I am not a huge fan of holistic or OTC remedies and I never recommend them to my clients. I work at a training facility and am working towards specializing in working with dogs who are fearful and/or aggressive.
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoppyKenna View Post

I'm in Kansas, actually...
My vet recommended the zylkene, along with the other OTC calmatives. But both she and my dog's vet behaviorist agreed that they wouldn't do much, and that prescription meds were necessary.

I'm all for studies, I'm just saying - I sank quite a bit of money into OTC stuff and it didn't do anything.

I will admit that my dog had pretty severe anxiety. It's possible that a run of the mill nervous dog would benefit greatly.
I describe my dog as reactive, but have found when I interact with other 'reactive' dogs, they aren't on the same level at all.


I only supposed UK 'cuz that's where i hear Zylkene talked about . U're the 1st dog-owner in the US who's said that their vet/s recommended it.

I didn't post the study as a point of argument - it came up when i queried Google Scholar for research articles re Zylkene, & i posted it as general-info. The Rx med they compared it to [Sylgine? - something like that] is also new to me.

I just finished the journal U posted starting in 2015 with Chisum -
Paxil & Xanax are meds i'm familiar with as a PCA providing in-home care, several of my prior clients with dementia took one or the other, & one client who was intensely anxious & suffered from agoraphobia, was prescribed both [but for some reason, the adult dotter did not want the Xanax given, tho it was Rx'ed as 2x daily - every time a meltdown began i'd have to call the dotter at work to get permission to give the Xanax, & meanwhile the client is becoming steadily more hysterical / enraged / paranoid / _______ . It wasn't good. ]


Watching the "scent reaction" clip when Chisum barked, sniffed, circled, growled, huffed, etc, i'd describe him not as 'reactive' but intensely anxious / "wound too tight", & in that instance, hyperaroused.
It was hard to see in the video, 'cuz he's black & not very big, plus the shadows as well as dark colors, but i know his tail was jacked up, the tail-hair seemed to bristle slightly, & i thot i saw hackling as well.
Poor boy, his genetics from the description are not good, & his life-history made things much-worse.

Dakota came from a hoarding situation in N.C. - Julie, another trainer who volunteered with PACC [a 501-3c in VA], had gone to a small rural shelter to pull ONE pre-arranged adoptable dog.
She pulled in to see a man cursing angrily as he marched across the parking lot, & when she entered, he was cussing out the young woman behind the counter - he had ELEVEN DOGS jammed into the bed of his pick-up, with no collars & no leashes, that he wanted to surrender, & he wanted HER to get them out & bring them all in for him.
The girl - she might've been 16 or so - was intimidated, but she tried to explain that she was alone - she couldn't just walk out of the building & unload a bunch of animals, he had to bring them in, 'cuz they're his dogs; she had to stay on duty, & the dogs are HIS property - he must bring them in, himself, to turn them over.

Julie being Julie, offered to help, got her own leashes out [the shelter only had 4-ft long cheap polyethylene braid noose-leads that would pop the head off a dog who pulled], & went with the guy.
She returned to VA with 11 animals - 10 of his, & the single adoptable F that we were expecting.
Dakota & his 4 siblings became the gunslinger group - Cody / Dakota, Colt, Winchester, etc.

Dakota & one of his brothers [Montana, 'Monty'] were sitting in the far corners, up against the cab, like bookends - faces jammed in the corner, bolt upright, "hiding" - neither would move. Julie had to crawl on her hands & knees under the cap to get leashes on them, & once leashed, CARRY each one individually to the tailgate - they were like garden gnomes, whatever pose they were in when U picked them up, THEY STAYED RIGID & did not move; their limbs were locked in place - literally frozen with terror, they barely breathed; their eyes did not blink.

So he surrendered ONE dog, a somewhat-normal old bitch, teats as long as an index finger, probly with severe heartworm, & lucky PACC got the other 10 - 'cuz the receptionist told the truth. When she saw them, she said they were not adoptable, & would most-likely be euthanized during the next vet visit.
None had ever been on leashes, nor worn collars, ever; they were terrified, they couldn't walk on the linoleum floor but skated & slithered; several lost bladder & / or bowel control in the foyer, having never been indoors in their lives - even B4 they entered the shelter proper, & the deafening clamor of barking dogs.
I'm sure the old bitch went down; she was 12 if she was a day - all 11 had the staring coats of malnutrition; all 10 that came to PACC needed heartworm Tx & had 2 or 3 kinds of gut-worms, too. [2 had Giardia - that was tough to kill! Thank DoG, Cody did not.]

'Cody was a hot mess of twitches & phobias - everything but everything scared him. But he made progress, slowly, & then much faster with the DAP & Wrap, plus other things [massage, Ttouch, T-wraps, lavender water...], & was adopted by a very nice couple.
I couldn't believe he made the transformation - it really was incredible. Dogs are amazing creatures.

I hope Chisum becomes the dog U see inside him.
- terry


Last edited by leashedForLife; 10-27-2017 at 09:57 PM.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:14 PM
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Arrow Correction!



RATS! - the 2nd video [Kylie] in the Ttouch body-wrap post is not labeled correctly.
here's the right clip:

Kylie is a liver ["chocolate"] Lab-mix, who's enormously excited by agility & crashes heedlessly thru the jumps, vs going over the poles - she just brings 'em down.
Wearing a full-wrap improves her proprioception & hind-end awareness, & her next round is clean.

- terry

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Old 10-28-2017, 01:04 PM
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Question Can't we have both?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZoesMom View Post

... my dog's anxiety got worse and worse. She should have been on meds right away.

My second dog, was so fearful when I got her that she wouldn't allow anyone to touch her. ... We put her on meds within a month of her adoption and I've done a ton of behavioral work with her. She's off the meds now and is doing great.

I am not a huge fan of holistic or OTC remedies...


I'm not disrespecting Rx meds, nor vet-behaviorists, CAABs, clinical behaviorists, etc. I'm just listing calmatives that don't require a scrip, are very safe, have no interactions with meds or food, & no dosage worries.
I think there is room for all of these - DVMs with Board-certification in behavior, academic chops & Masters, experienced trainers who specialize in one area of problem behavior or another, Rx meds, OTC aids.

That OTC calmatives did not work for Ur dog/s doesn't mean they don't work for all dogs - IIRC, Fluoxetine didn't help Chisum, but that doesn't mean it hasn't helped other dogs. Rx meds don't work for everyone, either - human or k9.

Both Rx & OTC meds are used by ppl all the time - coke-syrup for nausea; Epsom salts, aspirin, & Pepto-Bismol - all long-standing 1st-Aid stalwarts, kept in most homes.
Nobody suggests we throw them all out, because they didn't work to help one individual or another, or they don't work every time.

Dogs with major issues need intervention from higher-level pros; Dakota would probly have benefited greatly from a consult with a vet-behaviorist.
Unfortunately, all he had was me. :shrug: PACC's budget didn't stretch then, & probly doesn't stretch now, to cover trips to the Raleigh, NC, campus & appts with the resident vet-behaviorist.

Because an owner can't afford a vet-behaviorist, or there's no CAAB nearby, is not reason to conclude that nothing can be done - & if OTC calmatives help with the B-Mod process, which - IME of 40-odd years - they can ... there's no harm in trying.

Calmatives won't help dogs with focal seizures, hypothyroid, & other medically-rooted behavioral issues, but they can help reduce reactivity, whatever form that takes, & if the owner keeps the dog under threshold, they can begin to see some improvement.
If U keep doing what U're doing, U keep getting what U got - it's as true of dog behavior as it is of humans.

I don't claim calmatives will help every dog - but vets don't claim that a particular drug will help every patient, either. The biggest advantage of OTC calmatives, IMO, is that they have no side-effects. They work - or they don't; & IME, they've helped.
No one - least of all, me - expects them to be a silver bullet, & "cure" the problem. But B-Mod is much easier when the dog isn't flooded with stress hormones, or crazy with arousal.

I think anyone can see the difference in Kylie's behavior on the agility course, B4 & after wearing a Ttouch full-wrap. It certainly seems worth the effort to me.

- terry

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Old 10-28-2017, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post




Wearing a full-wrap improves her proprioception & hind-end awareness, & her next round is clean.

- terry


Maybe there is a video of the same dog and handler demonstrating this "wrap" process on the first pass through the course rather than the second after a delay and chill period of at least 15 minutes. I'd like to believe they tested the product numerous other ways before stating " a definite success story", maybe they did but the video would have been too long.
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Old 10-29-2017, 07:03 PM
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I don't mind OTC Calmatives, and just wish that one worked for my dog. I can't see any of the wraps working considering that he hates anything tight on his body. I have tried the Adaptil Spray for his thunder phobia only to watch it get worse and worse, likewise benedryl. That might be due to the fact that his phobia is severe, in the past he's given himself colitis because of it, back then I had a vet who would not prescribe anti-anxiety meds and I was searching for something to help.

What I'm saying is that OTC won't work for every dog and even when it does help, it may not help enough. I don't discount it at all, but I think an owner shouldn't expect miracles, and they should not be afraid of trying a prescription if necessary. It's sort of like me with sleep meds, OTC sleep meds work for many, many, people, but for me they do not work. I might as well drink a glass of water and call it a sleep aid for all they help me. Same with OTC calmatives for dogs, I'm sure they work for some, just not for my dog.

Interestingly, I've learned that not all anti-anxiety meds work the same. When I changed vets and the new vet prescribed him one we were given Alprazolam, well it did nothing to calm my dog down although it did help with his anxiety. Unfortunately it also hyped him up, lowered his inhibitions, and gave him the munchies. Fun times LOL. He now takes Amitriptyline and while it does not work as good as the other med did for the anxiety at least he doesn't act drunk on it .
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Old 10-29-2017, 08:35 PM
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Red face I've never understood the "No psych-meds" attitude.



as a matter of fact, i've also had dog-owning clients [while wearing my trainer / B-Mod hat] who flat-out refused to use Rx meds for behavior problems. Which is - IMO & IME - just as wrong-headed as the human version i've experienced -

human clients who won't take Rx meds for themselves, or who won't give Rx meds to their loved one, for whatever behavioral or psychological issue might be messing up their lives [when i'm wearing my PCA / CHHA / caregiver hat].

my nephew - who tried to avoid his Ritalin when he was impossible to live with, without it;
my dementia-client's adult dotter, who wouldn't give the 2X / day Rx of Xanax to her mother except when her mom spiraled into paranoia or rage, & even then, i needed her express permission, every time, B4 giving the pill...
my adopted younger-bro, unrelated by blood but very dear to me, who went off his ONE pill a day that managed his manic-depression.
That cost him his job, which cost him his apt, which meant he was couch-surfing with friends, which friends gave him various recreational substances, which very-nearly ended with him in prison, when he had a manic episode while high as a kite.


If a Dr or a vet sez "this mental / behavioral / emotional illness needs Rx meds", why would U automatically say no?
It's strange.
IME, most ppl with a physical illness don't simply refuse meds if the Doc sez, "U need this" - without a powerful reason.
An allergy, an extremely-dangerous side effect, a contraindication... something. // Not just, "No, i don't want to."

Mental, behavioral, & emotional issues are just as real as diarrhea, nausea, & poison-ivy rash - or cancer, heart disease, & kidney failure. // The less-serious ones, like the 1st 3, may respond to 1st-Aid measures.
The big ones, like the 2nd 3, need more than 1st-Aid measures. // OTC calmatives are behavioral 1st-Aid. They're not magick; this isn't Harry Potter waving a wand, or using a spell.

they're not "guaranteed to work" - but neither is an aspirin.

- terry

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