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Opinions on training lead please

This is a discussion on Opinions on training lead please within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; Originally Posted by Floki ... can someone explain the difference between a martingale collar and a choke? a "choke" [casual name] is an infinite-slip collar ...

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Old 10-23-2017, 11:00 PM
  #21
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Arrow A martingale can't throttle a dog; a choke / infinite-slip CAN.

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Originally Posted by Floki View Post

... can someone explain the difference between a martingale collar and a choke?


a "choke" [casual name] is an infinite-slip collar - it closes to infinity, meaning as far as it possibly can.
They can be made of chain [snake-chain; small, medium, or large link; long-link, for long-haired dogs] or of woven nylon tubes, or of narrow nylon webbing, or of polypropylene braid, or of leather.
They can also be rope-type, with a metal ring - feed the leash ThRU the ring, to form a 'collar' that resembles a running noose. If the dog pulls, or if U pull, the "noose" closes on the dog's neck.

When the collar is as tight as it can get around the dog's neck, their airway is shut off [this is the source of CM/DW's "amazing power" over many dogs seen being hoisted by the leash on his Nat'l-Geo channel episodes - the dog can't act-out if s/he literally cannot breathe].
It is possible with repeated shut-downs of the dog's airway to cause a stroke, brain damage due to lack of oxygen, paralysis, epilepsy as an ongoing condition of that dog, blindness / deafness, organ damage, etc.

a "martingale" [formal name] is a limited-slip collar - it can only close a measured amount; it can't close the dog's airway unless the dog's forefeet are off the ground; if the dog is standing or sitting, or is moving at a normal gait, the dog cannot strangle / smother.

in sum, a martingale / limited slip collar is very safe, provides excellent control [the dog can't back-out of one, nor will it fall off over their head when the dog is sniffing], & isn't painful.

A choke / infinite slip is NOT safe, & it IS painful.

A prong collar is painful - & is also prone to failure; it should never be used alone, it needs another back-up collar or harness in case it comes apart.
That's not a statement of support for prongs - i don't use them, don't like them, & never suggest them; it's simply a statement of fact. Prong collars are liable to fail, & dogs have been hurt or lost or gotten into troubles of one sort or another, when their prong collar came apart & they were unexpectedly "free" of any physical control.
Dogs who "need" prong collars aren't usually highly compliant & very reliable - if they were, they wouldn't be wearing a prong. So when they find themselves free of all restraint, they usually take off, & it might take hours or even days to get them back home, or worst case, they aren't found / aren't reunited with their owners.


Personally, i have 2 favorites -
W-I-D-E sighthound style martingales - at least as wide as the dog's cervical vertebrae;
or front-clipped / chest-clipped Y-harnesses. Both are safe, pain-free, & provide excellent control.
Both are good for training purposes, & can also be used simply to manage a dog safely without brute force.

cheers,
- terry

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Old 10-24-2017, 07:41 AM
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Martingales should only tighten enough so that the collar can not go up over their head, it is not meant to apply pressure. Choke chains have no limit on how much pressure they are applying and a lot of them also lack release. Without release dogs are unable to ever get away from the correction.
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Old 10-24-2017, 10:32 AM
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Thank you both!
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Old 10-24-2017, 10:40 AM
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Now on to convincing my husband that his miracle behavior isn’t such a good thing.
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Old 10-24-2017, 12:24 PM
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I’d like to report that yesterday I walked him with a harness. He did ok but when he was fixated on a sniff spot it took more of a tug or a treat to make him walk. He did not chew on leash. Just now I walked him with a normal collar and he was great. It only took a very slight tug up and “let’s go” and he walked. I treated him a lot with sit/stay/down commands along the way. Granted this was after a nap and he was somewhat sleepy still but progress. Yay. Not sure if this was because he THOUGHT the collar was the prong or not but I’m happy for him.
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Old 10-24-2017, 01:27 PM
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Question Chewing the leash?



Am i correct in thinking he sometimes chews the leash? [or is that another dog?...]

If he does grab / gnaw the leash, a CHOKE CHAIN can be used as a 'leader' to prevent him gnawing & severing the leash - so long as he's supervised!
If U tie him, all bets are off.

Buy an 18-inch choke, & 2 double-ended spring clips.
Secure one ring of the choke to his collar or harness, the other to his leash, with the double-ended spring clips.
This puts the "chewable" leash out of easy reach, & grabby / mouthy dogs learn that the chain is not nice to chew.
After a few weeks or months, the habit is gone or much-reduced, & the dog can often be walked on a leash without the chain.

TIP:
while using the chain leader, teach a solid, fluent "Leave it" using small but high-value rewards, & beginning with low-value objects / zero distractions, working up to high-value objects / introducing distractions gradually to build a reliable behavior.

- terry

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Old 10-24-2017, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post


Am i correct in thinking he sometimes chews the leash? [or is that another dog?...]

If he does grab / gnaw the leash, a CHOKE CHAIN can be used as a 'leader' to prevent him gnawing & severing the leash - so long as he's supervised!
If U tie him, all bets are off.

Buy an 18-inch choke, & 2 double-ended spring clips.
Secure one ring of the choke to his collar or harness, the other to his leash, with the double-ended spring clips.
This puts the "chewable" leash out of easy reach, & grabby / mouthy dogs learn that the chain is not nice to chew.
After a few weeks or months, the habit is gone or much-reduced, & the dog can often be walked on a leash without the chain.

TIP:
while using the chain leader, teach a solid, fluent "Leave it" using small but high-value rewards, & beginning with low-value objects / zero distractions, working up to high-value objects / introducing distractions gradually to build a reliable behavior.

- terry

Yes at first he had a great problem doing this, of course he never did it in class just at home. I did think about the chain leash but he has been much much better at this, still an option if he starts back up. I canít believe how great he is today. Not sure if 2 days (3hours total) on a prong curbed this or if heís just learning. Which ever, Iím seeing progress and love it. Heís never really a ďpullerĒ anyway so this may work with a normal flat collar once I learn. Hah. Itís me in training after all right ?
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:50 PM
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Question Did i miscommunicate?

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Originally Posted by Floki View Post

Yes at first he had a great problem [chewing / grabbing the leash?], of course he never did it in class, just at home.

I did think about the chain leash ...
Heís never really a ďpullerĒ anyway so this may work with a normal flat collar once I learn.
Hah. Itís me in training after all right ?


yes, the humans get a *lot* of training.

I hope i didn't confuse U, the choke-chain does not go on the dog - it isn't used as a collar, it simply provides a "chew-proof" end for the leash.

Where the leash would usually connect with the collar, the choke-chain is inserted, making the first 1.5-feet of leash, nearest the dog, chain; spring-clips attach the chain segment at both ends... to the collar at one end, & to the leash at the other.
Does that make sense?

here's a link with a photo of a double-ended spring clip:
https://www.amazon.com/ProTool-Doubl.../dp/B0009TILLC

HTH,
- terry

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Old 10-24-2017, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post


yes, the humans get a *lot* of training.

I hope i didn't confuse U, the choke-chain does not go on the dog - it isn't used as a collar, it simply provides a "chew-proof" end for the leash.

Where the leash would usually connect with the collar, the choke-chain is inserted, making the first 1.5-feet of leash, nearest the dog, chain; spring-clips attach the chain segment at both ends... to the collar at one end, & to the leash at the other.
Does that make sense?

here's a link with a photo of a double-ended spring clip:
https://www.amazon.com/ProTool-Doubl.../dp/B0009TILLC

HTH,
- terry

Oh no not confused. I completely understood. We did think of that if needed but were going to get a whole chain leash. I was just mentioning his flat collar that he finally did well on, it did sound confusing. Sorry. We shall see. I appreciate all of your feedback.
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Last edited by Floki; 10-24-2017 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 10-24-2017, 04:59 PM
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Whew! - Good. I had visions of U thinking i was suggesting a choke-chain for the big fella, which is far, far from my mind!

Glad to hear he's really shown improvement - all paws & digits crossed.
- terry

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