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My dog won't stop barking

This is a discussion on My dog won't stop barking within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; Originally Posted by Latikos I am on the side of Littlefox, Frank, Kakite and Athena. What I did was mixture out of the examples from ...

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Old 06-01-2019, 06:49 PM
  #21
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Shock collars can suppress a dog's true emotions...beware

Quote:
Originally Posted by Latikos View Post
I am on the side of Littlefox, Frank, Kakite and Athena.

What I did was mixture out of the examples from the others: Depending on my timing I would do different things:.....

It didn't even took long, until he would bark less and by now he either stays quiet or only barks once or twice, when there are new sounds, he doesn't he know (or if people are screaming/ yelling).

Now, when I tell him "Alles gut" it's possibilities: He doesn't even start barking (for example, when I hear someone talking at night, I will do that, so he doesn't has the need to give a bark to "warn or tell me"; or he will bark once ot twice, look at me and when he notices that I heard, he will go back to sleep or whatever.


AthenaLove, kakite are saying is that they are working with their dogs to change their dog's underlying emotions about how the dog feels about the stressful or frustrating things like the people passing by the fence, etc.

Shock collars:

In my opinion these dogs stop in their behaviour, because they get scared and/ or don't know what to do next and what is expected from them.

They know: If I keep barking, I will experience pain or fear/ shock.
So they stop barking, because they're afraid of the above, not because they learned what it is actually expected from them.


Personally I prefer, to intervene right before my dog would start what he wants to do and give him an alternative; even if it's only sitting down a moment.
I LOVE all of this post!!!!!! Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful detailed post of how you like to work with your dog. And what you don't like. I agree.

Also, I agree with you on the whole shock collar business.
Sure the dog quickly complies with the trainer. Correct. BUT---at what price??? The dog is generally complying out of fear of being shocked or "stimmed" as some people like to say to minimize the negative ugly punitive harsh sounding word "shocked" which it is.

The dog quickly complies, right? This is why some trainers love shock collars or whatever they want to call them. So then the client (owner) is beyond happy that their dog is so darn well trained. Yeah! Terrific. Maybe it works out in some cases.

But---does the dog learn to feel happy, safe, and non-stressed around the stimulus? Maybe in some cases. But in many cases NO!

The dog is only complying because he fears pain/harsh correction not because he is happy/confident about the situation.

Basically the dog learns to suppress his true emotions or insecurities, rather than let the owner know he is uncomfortable about something and needs to work together with his owner. I would much rather KNOW that my dog is uncomfortable/stressed so I can work with my dog to help her feel secure and confident and safe. Especially since I know most dog aggression stems from stress, fear, insecurity, pain. If a dog is conditioned to "shut up" about these feelings, then what happens when he is feeling this way about a situation?????? Not good, right?

Again, my motto: lets work with the dog, not against the dog!

Think about it: If you were deadly afraid of spiders...and your best friend dumps a box of spiders on you, but you know you will be collar shocked if you cry out in fear (bark for dogs)...

Will you be any less afraid of the spiders if you are shocked for crying out? Ummm no! What will you learn? That you cannot trust your "best friend" to let her know how you are truly feeling. So you suppress your emotions and learn that your "best friend" is not to be trusted with your real emotions.

Here's a "real" example that happened to me:

This guy came into my shop a while ago and we were talking about his new rescue dog, a big strong breed dog of some sort. Can't recall now. But then he told me he was using a shock collar on his dog. I asked why since I was very curious why he felt the need to use one on this dog.

He said he wanted to teach his dog to behave around young children, especially if they had food. So he was shocking his dog with young children present. I told him to be really careful since he very well could be actually teaching the dog something very, very different!! Such as, being near small kids= getting shocked. Hence, small kids are something to be extra worried about!!

This could certainly increase stress for the dog, and increase the dogs chances of reacting negatively or aggressively when around children
. Not a wise idea in my mind.

Then I told him how I help my dogs to feel GOOD about situations like this and other things! And thus decrease my dog's aggressive/reactive/negative behaviors. Or really, I prefer to work with my dogs in most cases BEFORE they get any negative feelings or become reactive.

What did he say back to me after I shared my thoughts with him? "Ohhhhh I never thought about it that way!"
From his reaction I am betting he ditched that shock collar for good--- and instead started working on changing his dogs underlying emotions about how he feels about being near kids and how to act around them in a much more positive light.

I personally prefer to teach my dogs what I love them to do and then reward the heck out of that!!

And I teach my dogs that I WANT them to tell me when they are feeling uncomfortable or unsafe or fearful.

Last edited by AthenaLove; 06-01-2019 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 06-01-2019, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AthenaLove View Post
I LOVE all of this post!!!!!! Thank you for taking the time to write such a thoughtful detailed post of how you like to work with your dog. And what you don't like. I agree.

Also, I agree with you on the whole shock collar business.
Sure the dog quickly complies with the trainer. Correct. BUT---at what price??? The dog is generally complying out of fear of being shocked or "stimmed" as some people like to say to minimize the negative ugly punitive harsh sounding word "shocked" which it is.

The dog quickly complies, right? This is why some trainers love shock collars or whatever they want to call them. So then the client (owner) is beyond happy that their dog is so darn well trained. Yeah! Terrific. Maybe it works out in some cases.

But---does the dog learn to feel happy, safe, and non-stressed around the stimulus? Maybe in some cases. But in many cases NO!

The dog is only complying because he fears pain/harsh correction not because he is happy/confident about the situation.

Basically the dog learns to suppress his true emotions or insecurities, rather than let the owner know he is uncomfortable about something and needs to work together with his owner. I would much rather KNOW that my dog is uncomfortable/stressed so I can work with my dog to help her feel secure and confident and safe. Especially since I know most dog aggression stems from stress, fear, insecurity, pain. If a dog is conditioned to "shut up" about these feelings, then what happens when he is feeling this way about a situation?????? Not good, right?

Again, my motto: lets work with the dog, not against the dog!

Think about it: If you were deadly afraid of spiders...and your best friend dumps a box of spiders on you, but you know you will be collar shocked if you cry out in fear (bark for dogs)...

Will you be any less afraid of the spiders if you are shocked for crying out? Ummm no! What will you learn? That you cannot trust your "best friend" to let her know how you are truly feeling. So you suppress your emotions and learn that your "best friend" is not to be trusted with your real emotions.

Here's a "real" example that happened to me:

This guy came into my shop a while ago and we were talking about his new rescue dog, a big strong breed dog of some sort. Can't recall now. But then he told me he was using a shock collar on his dog. I asked why since I was very curious why he felt the need to use one on this dog.

He said he wanted to teach his dog to behave around young children, especially if they had food. So he was shocking his dog with young children present. I told him to be really careful since he very well could be actually teaching the dog something very, very different!! Such as, being near small kids= getting shocked. Hence, small kids are something to be extra worried about!!

This could certainly increase stress for the dog, and increase the dogs chances of reacting negatively or aggressively when around children
. Not a wise idea in my mind.

Then I told him how I help my dogs to feel GOOD about situations like this and other things! And thus decrease my dog's aggressive/reactive/negative behaviors. Or really, I prefer to work with my dogs in most cases BEFORE they get any negative feelings or become reactive.

What did he say back to me after I shared my thoughts with him? "Ohhhhh I never thought about it that way!"
From his reaction I am betting he ditched that shock collar for good--- and instead started working on changing his dogs underlying emotions about how he feels about being near kids and how to act around them in a much more positive light.

I personally prefer to teach my dogs what I love them to do and then reward the heck out of that!!

And I teach my dogs that I WANT them to tell me when they are feeling uncomfortable or unsafe or fearful.
Okay, just totally ignore my post? I literally "shocked" myself with the electric collar on my own neck. It does NOT hurt. If it doesn't hurt my bare human neck, it definitely doesn't hurt a dog's furry neck. I would never inflict pain to my dog as a form of training.

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Old 06-01-2019, 07:08 PM
  #23
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Funny how things happen, once you write about it: A few minutes ago, some people were walking in front of the house, talking loudly.
Now, it's nearly 1am here, so middle of the night, and it's unusual that people talk in that volume at this time of night.


So he barked, twice, and was silent again.


Since the people kept talking (I doubt they heard them, and even if they did, why would they stop? They were a bit louder, but not *loud* and they were only walking past).
So he barked again.
I went to him, told how great he did that - and he was totally quiet again, but being happy for the praise and the attention.


So, yeah, I stand with my post: I love working *with* my dog, instead of working against it.
They are so grateful and loving when you do that, while being totally relaxed.




If anyone would want to come even close to putting a shock collar on my dog, I would literally stand in front oh him to make sure, it won't even touch my dog.




Little sidenote: A friend of mine has a French Bulldog.
Some dog trainers told him, the last option to make sure, that dog wouldn't run hunting, would be a shock collar.
Now, I don't know what exactly he all tried (we're not *that* close), but I do know, what he decided to do: Instead of using a shock collar and ruining the trust of his dog, the dog is mostly on a "towrope" (I think, that might be the word).
He can put quite a distance between the two of them to look and sniff around, but he won't get hurt/ shocked/ scared or whatever.




EDIT: @tuliprox: So, even if it doesn't hurt the dogs, it still works with a shocks, as in "negative surprise", which in the ends leads to the same outcome: Der dog only learns to suppress what he wants, but he doesn't learn an actual alternative.
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Last edited by Latikos; 06-01-2019 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 06-01-2019, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuliprox View Post
Okay, just totally ignore my post? I literally "shocked" myself with the electric collar on my own neck. It does NOT hurt. If it doesn't hurt my bare human neck, it definitely doesn't hurt a dog's furry neck. I would never inflict pain to my dog as a form of training.

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Hold on there, Dog Trainer. You advocate shock collars, remind the OP that the prongs need to be touching the skin and now you're saying the dog is protected by it's furry neck.

You suggest to the OP to teach her dog to bark/speak on command, soooo...
she can then teach it to stop barking on command. What kind of training is that?

You post that a shock collar is not inhumane in any way, but you as a human can rationalize/conceptualize what a shock collar is. A dog has no way to understand a shock collar. Do you really know what the dog feels in it's brain and inner ears when it gets shocked?


I call BS. You're trolling this group.
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Old 06-01-2019, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Frank_Further View Post
Hold on there, Dog Trainer. You advocate shock collars, remind the OP that the prongs need to be touching the skin and now you're saying the dog is protected by it's furry neck.

You suggest to the OP to teach her dog to bark/speak on command, soooo...
she can then teach it to stop barking on command. What kind of training is that?

You post that a shock collar is not inhumane in any way, but you as a human can rationalize/conceptualize what a shock collar is. A dog has no way to understand a shock collar. Do you really know what the dog feels in it's brain and inner ears when it gets shocked?


I call BS. You're trolling this group.
What do you mean what kind of training is that? Someone else even agreed with that method I suggested?
Where did I say that the dog was "protected" by its furry neck? And yes, the prongs do need to be touching the skin. They still have to go through fur to touch the skin. There is a slight barrier compared to human skin obviously, even when the collar is fitted correctly so that the prongs can go through the majority of the fur to reach the skin.
Why would I "troll" the group? What would I get out of that? Are all of my previous posts to other threads also "troll posts"? If not, why would I suddenly start now? I'm trying to offer advice that works, and that doesn't hurt the dog. That's it. I've trained and seen many dogs trained and I know how to read dog body language. I can tell when a dog is fearful, uncomfortable, anxious, confident, or relaxed. I've stated how I've seen dogs transform from shy, fearful, anxious dogs that walk around with their hackles up, barking and growling at any dog it sees, or even at us, to a happy, confident dog that wags its tail when it sees us and asks us for pets and initiates play with us and holds long down stays in the lobby while lots of people and dogs walk around them, all after training them with martingale collars for a few days to a week in most cases, occasionally after a week to two weeks. I've seen what works and I've been suggesting what I've seen work.
After I saw the post by whoever suggested crate training, however, I agree that that would be the best method to use. As for crate training, I would use all positive reinforcement and lots of food rewards. I will admit that I was wrong the first time, and I believe that this is the best training method to use in this situation.

Last edited by tuliprox; 06-01-2019 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 06-01-2019, 07:58 PM
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Again, please don't advocate the use of shock collars here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AthenaLove View Post
Tuliprox, this is a positive reinforcement based site. I am not sure why you are discussing or advising about shock collars here.

This dog should not be wearing a shock collar, especially if she is being kept outside on a tie out or chain. This could increase barking or other aggressive or negative behaviors, which I am quite sure is the opposite of what Chloe's owner are wanting.

Please refrain from advising people about shock collars here--there are so many positive, safer, more humane, compassionate and intelligent training methods out there for us dog lovers. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulixpro
Okay, just totally ignore my post?

Ummmm, Tulixpro, "dog trainer" person, lover of shock collars, NOW who is "ignoring" a post, as you asked me on your latest post????

I love how you did not respond to my statement of this forum being a positive reinforcement based forum that does not allow people to advise others to use shock collars. Why not discuss the reason that you feel it is ok to blatantly disregard the rules here??

I am sure there are plenty of other websites/forums that would love to hear your thoughts about shock collars and how to properly fit them!

Maybe you should go reread the forum rules, if you ever read them to begin with when you first joined.

Plus..... if you are an actual real "dog trainer" with ethics, you should actually warn people that using a shock collar wrongly or with little/no previous experience generally can result in making the situation worse for the dog and the owner!

You know that right? I would think all professional dog trainers know this. So if you were to really condone using shock collars on dogs (ugh!) then you should be telling people that you have never met (so cannot judge their level of experience) to hire a professional to learn how to use this device safely and accurately. That is what a real dog trainer with ethics and morals would do, in my opinion.

Anyone else agree with me on this????
?
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Old 06-01-2019, 08:15 PM
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I teach dogs to speak using fun voice work games-- and also teach shhhh quiet please

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Originally Posted by tuliprox View Post
What do you mean what kind of training is that? Someone else even agreed with that method I suggested?

"You suggest to the OP to teach her dog to bark/speak on command, soooo...
she can then teach it to stop barking on command. What kind of training is that?"

Perhaps Frank_Further was asking you this because we could assume from your prior posts that you would be teaching your dog to speak and then stop on command whilst USING A SHOCK COLLAR! That would be really, really crappy in my opinion and grossly unfair to the poor dog.

When I posted that I trained my dog these things, the regulars posters here know that I did not mean using a dang shock collar or anything else punitive or fear/inducing or unpleasant. I write all the time about trying to work with my dogs in a positive humane loving way. So even newcomers would see that I wouldn't advocate for using a shock collar.

So while I "agreed" with you on this, it certainly wasn't using your method of engaging with a shock collar or "gentle stim" of sorts. Sigh. I thought that was clear.

If I am wrong Frank_Further, correct me. From your writings, (and I read them all!) I am pretty sure you prefer more humane positive based training methodology.

Sooooo just to be clear....and not to confuse anyone....I will explain "my method" of this speak/no speak.

Here goes...real difficult...not! I make ultra fun games out of "voice work" with my dogs. Using yummy food, genuine praise, and possibly a toss of a toy if applicable. (Two of my dogs have no interest in toys, esp squeaky ones!)

Our voice work entails:
speak: (say meow=single bark)
thank you (two barks)
I love you (three barks)
Motorcycle (grrrr sound)
Sing (mimic my singing)
Hows the weather? (brrrr cold, light burr sound)
Talk politics (whole litany of answers/barks)
Inside voice (quiet bark)
And a zilliion other fun sounds for my dogs to make

So fun! And good for their brain. And other people looooove to watch my dogs run their voice work tricks.

AND----I also teach AND highly reward the "shhhhh, quiet please" cue.

Is that clear enough Tulixpro?

Last edited by AthenaLove; 06-01-2019 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 06-01-2019, 08:16 PM
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Well, there actually are training videos where they teach a dog not to bark, by first teaching the dog to bark. Or rather to stop barking on command once the dog has learned to do bark on command.

Totally with you Frank on those shock and prong collars. I too rather have my dog(s) do things because they want to, than doing them because they are afraid of any shock treatment!!!

I love how my dogs look at me with trusting eyes, and I can see their love inside of them! I know for certain, that those shock treatments would ruin all that, and cause immense harm to their little souls!!!
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Old 06-01-2019, 08:37 PM
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Forum rules: you may understand why folks are questioning your posts re: shock collar

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Originally Posted by tuliprox View Post
And yes, the prongs do need to be touching the skin. They still have to go through fur to touch the skin. There is a slight barrier compared to human skin obviously, even when the collar is fitted correctly so that the prongs can go through the majority of the fur to reach the skin.

Why would I "troll" the group? .
Perhaps some folks here could question your intentions here... or wonder if you were trolling the forum (or group) because....


Like I stated before, I believe advising folks to use shock collars or advising them how to properly fit them, like you are describing here in your above quote, is against our forum rules.

Here are part of the forum rules if anyone else is interested or haven't read them:

Forum rules and guidelines: TRAINING & BEHAVIOR, Please Read BEFORE Posting!

This Post is to remind our members that this forum is a PR/non-aversive/non-compulsion forum. It is perfectly acceptable to DISCUSS different training methods when not directed as advice to a training/behavior question . It is NOT acceptable to recommend, any training method/tool/technique that relies on Fear/intimidation/pain on this forum. The Dog forum team reserves the right to make judgment calls as to what is harmful. Generally prohibited advice/tools include, but is not limited to: poking, smacking/hitting, leash jerks or tugs, pushing, stern verbal corrections, grabbing muzzles, pinching gums/tongue/mouth/ears, stepping on paws, spray bottles, air horns, penny cans, chains in bags, shock collars, prong collars, choke collars, flooding, alpha rolling, and "invisible" electric fences.

ANYONE CONTINUING TO ADVISE SUCH METHODS WILL BE SUBJECT TO DISCIPLINE, AS SEEN FIT, BY THE DOG FORUM TEAM.

Hope this clarifies. Thank you.
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:03 PM
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I have no doubt that there are videos of people training a dog to bark on command so the dog can be taught to not bark on command.

I think it's pointless. The dog already knows how to bark.

I prefer to work with the bark in the moment and develop the dogs power to discriminate between barkable and not barkable disturbances. As Latikos says, it is not difficult and doesn't take long.

Teaching a dog to bark on command seems an unnecessary step to me. I'm not saying it won't work.

Here's something I was writing to myself earlier today, to get me thinking about barking and the level of discrimination a dog can attain.

"Iíd have to think a long time before Iíd start teaching my dog to speak (bark) on command, especially just for the purpose of teaching him to stop barking. A dog already knows how to speak (bark). A dog barks for a reason.

Why confuse the dog by teaching him to bark for no reason other than I say so? I respect my dog more than that.

What Iím looking for in my dog is the ability to think and discriminate on his own. When neighbors & their family members who live next door or across the fenceÖ who leave and enter their home at random times, who climb into a car in the driveway at random times, who do yardwork or take the kitchen garbage out to the garageÖ I need my dog to know that that neighbor living his life is just as unbark worthy as a robin singing on a wire, or squirrel doing acrobatics in a tree.

I do want my dog to alert me if someone other than our neighbors or their family has entered the scene.

To achieve that level of discrimination Iíve been engaging with my dog and his barking behaviors from the night I brought him home from the shelter. I donít have a yard. Iíve a second-floor apartment with a balcony/ sliding door arrangement and he can see 16 of the 22 parking slots from the glass door.

When Iím with him I coach every bark. Thereís a need for this. 4 of the slots are associated with a criminal or terminally disruptive neighbor. I need him to alert me to those elements. Iím not going to be taken by surprise by hooligans that live in my building. Heís rewarded for those barks and I let him bark a few additional times to let the hooligans know that my alarm system is working. Then, I thank my dog, ask him to sit and watch and thank him again. At that point he performs a sit/watch or lays down by the door in relaxed alertness or moves away from the door and lays down again. Heís done his job and this case is closed.

3 of the slots are close friends in the building and heís learned thru socialization and experience to recognize those people and their cars and know thereís no need to bark. One slot is my partnerís and he will bark madly when she comes home, he knows the sound of her car in the parking lot Ö itís a different bark than an alert bark. Itís a happy exciting greeting bark.

That leaves 8 spaces and those spaces relate to the other half of our building and a separate entrance. Over time and coaching and socializing with those neighbors heís learned those spaces to be neutral and non bark worthy.
Also, he barks when thereís a disturbance in the parking lotÖ fighting, arguments, drunks being loud, towing company, a police car or emergency vehicle. In the middle of the night, if Frank barks, I get out of bed and join him at the glass door where we figure it out together.

If this sounds like a lot of work, itís not. Itís just working with my dog one bark at a time and itís a huge thrill to see him learn. Itís fun and immensely satisfying.
He's thinking. When he's at the glass door and I'm on the couch and he barks once twice, then turns his head and looks at me, I know right there that that dog sees me as his partner. That's not a command/obey scenario. That's 2 conscious beings of different species sharing a communication and a trust."


That's from my training journal.
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