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How to stop my dog from screaming

This is a discussion on How to stop my dog from screaming within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; The steroids made my last dog incontinent of both urine and feces, constantly. They can also cause behavior changes in humans, "roid rage". I'm not ...

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Old 10-27-2017, 02:12 PM
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The steroids made my last dog incontinent of both urine and feces, constantly. They can also cause behavior changes in humans, "roid rage".

I'm not at all trying to question the level of care or excellence that UC Davis or Cornall provide. Mass General Hospital in Boston is ranked one of the top ten hospitals in the country (US) and I went with one of my best friends there and watched a doctor flatly dismiss her concerns of Lyme disease and tell her to see a thyroid specialist for her symptoms. She had Lyme, still has it because she missed the early window to treat it. She lives in the woods and constantly has tick bites and is constantly pulling ticks off her cats who go outside and then sleep in the bed.
Many wonderful established doctors and vets simply refuse to accept that Lyme and other tick borne illnesses are as widespread as they are. Especially with one negative test that may not be reliable at the time it was drawn for a lot of reasons, or with atypical or confusing presentations. Sometimes very well respected medical professionals don't like to be challenged by patients or clients and just don't think outside the box.
Inconclusive results are not a definitive result and are not helping this poor dog feel better nor the op manage the dog with less stress.
I'd be questioning the vets more or trying a behaviorist to see if behavioral techniques or medications can help calm the dog down to at least keep her comfortable and you less stressed.

Some of us random Internet posters have a lot of education and experience with difficult to find and treat medical issues. I'm just trying to be supportive and creative thinking. Maybe the dog is sensitive to medications and has atypical reactions which can be very difficult to treat and difficult to diagnose.

My dog is on a long acting medication for separation anxiety and has food allergies and ibd. He was tried on 4 different kinds of short acting anti anxiety medications that were supposed to help him sleep and calm so I could safely go to work. Nope they all made him knocked out but then violent and hyper reactive and aggressive for 36 to 48 hours after a single dose. No benzodiazepines and no trazodone for him. Too sensitive and too disinhibiting. My last dog was fine on all of them.
My mom died of cancer they gave her ativan, another benzodiazepine during each chemo treatment for nausea and her high blood pressure. This is supposed to be popular for anxiety and people sell it on the street. She hated it, it caused her to have vivid nightmares ad feel worse, another bad reaction. My old horse is super sensitive to everything and has had a bad, allergic or atypical reaction to every medicine or vaccine around. Gave her a full dose of a Cushing medication and she stopped eating for a week, from one full pill instead of a half pill. She had chronic Lyme for many years, which can mess up your whole system, stomach, immune, evetything, all this started after the years of lyme. My friend has had chronic lyme, all the best doctors and hospitals for years told him he had panic attacks and was fine. He found a lyme doctor and got treated but now has all kinds of joint issues and now immune system and stomach issues. He's allergic to his cat he's had for years and had to give her away, can't stay in his condo and can't eat his favorite foods because he's allergic to them all now. So lyme can and does mess up your whole system if untreated for too long. I could go on and on with more stories and more doctors and vets who ignored it because the first test was negative or low positive.

It does no harm to get it checked out again especially since it sounds like the dog is so distressed and stressing you out. But telling people to just blindly trust any hospital and ignore others experiences doesn't seem great either. The best doctor or vet in the world is human and can make a mistake or miss simething.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but helpful based on many years of both firsthand experience and working in the healthcare field.

Whatever you do, I wish you the very best. It sounds very difficult especially being so close to having a baby and I'm sure you really need your sleep.
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Old 11-02-2017, 12:53 AM
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Thanks to both of you for taking so much time in your reply. It?s definitely not lyme. My dog hasn?t really been bitten by ticks. Just once and we saw it fast enough that the tick hadn?t even fully latched on yet-and that was 2+ years ago when she?s had problems since day 1. But you name the test and my reg vet or davis has done it. There?s literally nothing more known in the vet medical community that can be done. In fact, we?re having a 4th university (mississippi state i think) take a look at her bloodwork to make sure that her steroid dose is doing what it needs to. The theory is that it might not be enough. The screaming is definitely her having a fit about being left alone. If we tie her up and walk away she starts it up once we get about 10ish feet away. Same for the backyard. We actually have to keep her on a leash or she?ll start body slamming the back door to try and get in. But of course we still give her tons of range to potty, access water, and her kennel. When she has the fit in the house its the same issue-being tied up too far away from us. We don?t let her free roam unattended as she?ll get into things. So she?s either loose and we?re actively watching or she?s tied up and we?re keeping watch periodically. We?ve tried everything: spend lots of time with her so being tied up outside isn?t an immediate negative, exercising her, giving her high value treats/toys, verbal commands/rewards (like ?quiet? and waiting for a moment of silence which we reward), air can correction, spray bottle correction, dog version of feliway, dog calming treats, letting her cry it out, everything. Absolutely nothing short of being with us 24/7 is an acceptible alternative for this dog. And given that we?re a busy growing family and she?s a 45+ lb dog, I simply can?t take her with me everywhere I go. The dog HAS to be alone sometime. Thankfully usually for not more than a few hours, but this dog can?t bear being alone 5 mins. We even tried just leaving her inside and being prepared to mop her up when we got home but she was so loud and persistent that you could hear her just the same as if we had left her outside-so that isnt gonna please the neighbors. She?s had plenty experience being alone (crating her inside when we?d leave, before that couldnt be done anymore), and we suspect she?s been screaming all along, but now that we?ve moved to a new neighborhood these neighbors are more vocal about it. Although I think the intensity of her screaming has increased over the years. Thankfully a mild change in diet and the meds slowly doing their job seems to be gradually helping. We?ve been keeping her with us as much as possible to please the neighbors in the meantime but in the long run this won?t be sustainable. Like, I?m making taking the dog with me on all my errands work in the short term but i can?t keep doing this. We?ve had her sleep inside with us uncrated at night and by some miracle she?s not having accidents-we?ll see how long that lasts. So unless we wanna drug the dog, an ecollar is all i can think of that?s left. So we tried that out for about 30 mins today with a remote control one borrowed from a friend. We set it to low and controlled when the shock happened. It startled her but it got her to shut up. No injuries or anything like that. So we?re going to buy one meant to go off on it?s own when it hears the dog making noise. I?m going to monitor it for a while until I?m confident that she can be left with it unattended. My concern is that she?s going to figure out what she can get away with which is probably going to be whimpering since the collar isnt really meant for that. But my hope is that the whimpering will be a fair alternative for the neighbors while we?re not at home. I know this isn?t the ideal situation but I?m at a loss of what else to do.
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Old 11-02-2017, 01:04 AM
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Also, she?s only been on these steriods a little over a month now. The screaming has been an issue for longer than that. So I?m going to doubt that these meds are causing that behavior.
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Old 11-02-2017, 12:01 PM
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Unhappy Good-bye.

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Originally Posted by dmsr24 View Post


... So unless we wanna drug the dog, an ecollar is all i can think of that?s left.

So we tried that out for about 30 mins today with a remote control one borrowed from a friend. We set it to low and controlled when the shock happened.
It startled her but it got her to shut up. No injuries or anything like that. So we?re going to buy one meant to go off on it?s own when it hears the dog making noise.

I?m going to monitor it for a while until I?m confident that she can be left with it unattended. My concern is that she?s going to figure out what she can get away with which is probably going to be whimpering since the collar isnt really meant for that.

But my hope is that the whimpering will be a fair alternative for the neighbors while we?re not at home. I know this isn?t the ideal situation but I?m at a loss of what else to do.


I think U've already been informed that this Forum is not for USE of shock-collars -
& please call them what they are, "e-collars" or "remote-controlled training collars" or "anti-bark collars", etc, are euphemisms - shock-collars are designed specifically to deliver a shock to the dog's skin, via electrodes. It's what they do.

Plus, as many have already said, Ur dog is pretty miserable without adding electric-shocks to her life -- which certainly won't enhance it in any way.

U have made a decision - personally, it's one I can't agree with.
- terry

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Old 11-02-2017, 12:12 PM
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So surely there is someone on here who knows a lot about pits and I don't believe they would suggest you use a e-collar on a dog period. As much as you think it's helping it not. It just makes them not want to be around sure it makes them shut up. I've felt the shock of a e-collar it's not a lot but if that was put around your neck you wouldn't like it either. Just sayin' you might want to think of something else.
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Old 11-02-2017, 01:16 PM
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From your most recent post, it sounds like maybe it could be an expression of separation anxiety or separation distress. There is possibly a learned component to the behavior- ie, I scream and I get let in/get attention/whatever- but the basis of this kind of behavior is some kind of emotional distress. The level of emotional distress could range from "I'd prefer this not to be the case" to a more severe case of "I am in a panic because my human is gone".

There is significant support in the scientific literature on behavior that the use of aversives (something the dog would choose to avoid or escape) is likely to increase fear and anxiety. These studies range across a variety of species, and suggest that this response to aversives is fairly universal. Some of these studies have been done on dogs. This is because when you apply something the dog wishes to avoid or escape in order to motivate behavior, you are working in shades of stress. If you're using this in a case where the behavior is motivated by fear and/or anxiety, you run a very high risk of increasing these emotions through the application of aversives. Like I said, it sounds like there's a good chance that fear and anxiety play a role in this behavior.

Unintended consequences from your chosen path of action (ie, using an aversive stimulus- one that has been shown in several studies done on dogs to be especially likely to cause an increase in fear and anxiety versus more physical/traditional aversive means) can result in:
- increased fear and anxiety
- increased aggression/ lowered threshold for aggression (ie, more likely for the dog to display an aggressive response versus a warning)
- increased reactivity
- redirected aggression (addressing an aggressive response towards a human handler as a result of frustration/anxiety/panic/anger)

Pretty much: you're using a tool especially likely to result in emotional and behavioral fallout, without the advice of a professional, actually against the advise of several professionals (some posters who have answered here, including me, are actually professional dog trainers), to address an issue that is likely to have a strong emotional component. I hope you decide against the use of an e-collar. Talk to the behaviorists on staff at the hospitals you work with (note: NOT just the medical vets, who have little to no actual behavioral training). I would be willing to bet it's highly unlikely that they will advise you continue the use of the e-collar.
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Old 11-02-2017, 04:14 PM
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Unhappy We don't know what dogs feel; in fact, we can't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alla and Frodo View Post

... I've felt the shock of a e-collar - it's not a lot - but if that was put around your neck, you wouldn't like it, either.
...


not at all disagreeing with the post! - just to add some info:
the intensity & type of shock can be changed on most shock-collars; intermittent is brief on-off, continuous is "as long as my finger's on the button".

Intensity can be VERY intense, or very low - the significant thing is, no animal yet tested has "liked" shock.
If it's perceptible, it's perceived as unpleasant - it's not a neutral stimulus. // If the animal cannot feel it, then it's below their threshold of perception, & serves no purpose; if it can be felt, it is an unwelcome sensation.

That's why shock is referred to as a universal aversive. No creature 'likes' it.

Most shock-collars are powered by 9-volt batteries; the problem with shock is that we cannot feel what THE OTHER feels - we only know what WE feel, at a given setting.
Generally, dogs are more stoic than humans - we react much-more vocally to low-level pain than do most dogs. I've helped to position dogs for X-rays who turned out to have a broken pelvis or other serious injuries, which would have humans moaning or even screaming in pain - the dogs were silent, tho obviously hurting.

Dogs have a higher isotonic / level of ions in their bodies when compared to humans; they also have thinner skin / no or minimal sub-Q fat deposit, etc, etc; they're a different species, with different anatomy, physiology, & nervous response.

Since dogs are capable of detecting the change in atmospheric ions B4 a thunderstorm arrives, it's very likely that they are more sensitive to shock or electrical charges of any kind, than are humans.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/0...th_by_battery/

The science of shock -
https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1385


A co-worker in a manufacturing plant [C-Cor Electronics, State College, PA] had a very-severe electrical burn while testing coils for conductivity - an engineer in the Production Test Dept was on the Safety Committee, & wondered how she'd gotten a blackened ring the size of a silver dollar that framed a missing disk of skin 1/2-inch deep, from a very small voltage.
She'd used Rose-Milk skin lotion with electrolytes & become a near-perfect conductor, with ZERO resistance. Had the shock crossed her heart, instead of shorting thru her forearm to the table, she'd have died on the spot -- from a tiny, tiny jolt of voltage across a fine 10-loop coil, on a circuit-board.

Shock is complex & potentially dangerous; amperage, conductivity, resistance, saline levels [ions], moisture, etc, all change the resulting shock.
- terry

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Old 11-02-2017, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alla and Frodo View Post

... I've felt the shock of a e-collar - it's not a lot - but if that was put around your neck, you wouldn't like it, either.
...


not at all disagreeing with the post! - just to add some info:
the intensity & type of shock can be changed on most shock-collars; intermittent is brief on-off, continuous is "as long as my finger's on the button".

Intensity can be VERY intense, or very low - the significant thing is, no animal yet tested has "liked" shock.
If it's perceptible, it's perceived as unpleasant - it's not a neutral stimulus. // If the animal cannot feel it, then it's below their threshold of perception, & serves no purpose; if it can be felt, it is an unwelcome sensation.

That's why shock is referred to as a universal aversive. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.dogforum.com/images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG] No creature 'likes' it.

Most shock-collars are powered by 9-volt batteries; the problem with shock is that we cannot feel what THE OTHER feels - we only know what WE feel, at a given setting.
Generally, dogs are more stoic than humans - we react much-more vocally to low-level pain than do most dogs. I've helped to position dogs for X-rays who turned out to have a broken pelvis or other serious injuries, which would have humans moaning or even screaming in pain - the dogs were silent, tho obviously hurting.

Dogs have a higher isotonic / level of ions in their bodies when compared to humans; they also have thinner skin / no or minimal sub-Q fat deposit, etc, etc; they're a different species, with different anatomy, physiology, & nervous response.

Since dogs are capable of detecting the change in atmospheric ions B4 a thunderstorm arrives, it's very likely that they are more sensitive to shock or electrical charges of any kind, than are humans.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/0...th_by_battery/

The science of shock -
https://www.sparkfun.com/news/1385


A co-worker in a manufacturing plant [C-Cor Electronics, State College, PA] had a very-severe electrical burn while testing coils for conductivity - an engineer in the Production Test Dept was on the Safety Committee, & wondered how she'd gotten a blackened ring the size of a silver dollar that framed a missing disk of skin 1/2-inch deep, from a very small voltage.
She'd used Rose-Milk skin lotion with electrolytes & become a near-perfect conductor, with ZERO resistance. Had the shock crossed her heart, instead of shorting thru her forearm to the table, she'd have died on the spot -- from a tiny, tiny jolt of voltage across a fine 10-loop coil, on a circuit-board. [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.dogforum.com/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]

Shock is complex & potentially dangerous; amperage, conductivity, resistance, saline levels [ions], moisture, etc, all change the resulting shock.
- terry

Interesting I knew dogs hide how their actually feeling. I would just never do anything to Frodo and Alla that I personally wouldn't want to happen to me. :-):-)
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Old 11-02-2017, 05:46 PM
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I?m sorry to hear that the consensus seems to be that I?m abusing my dog. I?ve been trained on these collars in previous jobs I?ve had so I?m at least somewhat familiar with what they do and their pros/cons. What I was taught was that you need to exhaust every other avenue of training first to resort to these things as they are not ideal. We were told to always discourage someone from using these as the first thing they turn to. I know that the collar has the potential to create other behavioral issues but I don?t know what else to do. Like I stated before, it seems that no alternative is acceptible to this dog. I also know that a dog?s neck is much stronger and beefier than ours; after all, mama dog carries them by their necks as puppies. But we made sure to test out the collar on the lightest and most extreme settings on ourselves before putting it on the dog. We tried it on the meaty part of the wrist which is prob the closest comparison. It can go all the way up to a 15 but we put it at a 3. It was enough to get attention but not enough to cause pain. Kind of like when you get static electricty from touching metal. Don?t get me wrong, an ecollar is not something I?m a fan of either, but we have exhausted every avenue possible and spoken to others for suggestions as well. Which is why I posted the question, I figured it?d be worth seeing if there was SOMETHING else I could try first but it doesn?t seem like anyone has suggested something I haven?t tried. Thankfully the dog can spend time with us for most of the day, I really just need her to get a grip while we?re gone doing errands for a few hours as I can?t realistically take this large dog with me everywhere. I?ve already had neighbors threatening me and the homeowners assoc calling me about the noise and we havent even lived here a couple weeks. So it?s either the dog gets an ecollar for a couple hours or she can?t live with us (obviously we don?t want that). We do plan to keep an eye on her behavior and if we notice any negative changes we?ll have to revaluate. I would prefer not to drug the dog as she hasn?t responded well to narcotics in the past. She was actually harder to deal with. Many here want to tell me how awful I?m being and to try something else but what else am I to try? Even when we left her alone inside the house prepared to clean up a horror show, she screamed so loud that you could hear her crystal clear from outside. We love her, but shes kind of holding us hostage to her demands. She has this deep concern that we?re NEVER coming back and in 3 years I haven?t been able to convince her otherwise. And we don?t reward the screaming with attention so I don?t know why she thinks it?s getting her anywhere. Sorry if the topic of this post is breaking some kind of rules as this isn?t my intention. I?m just here for any kind of suggestion of what else to try that I may not have thought of. At the very least, this info can help someone else in my situation who sees this post. I?ll try to update when we see how this pans out over time.
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Old 11-03-2017, 09:17 AM
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Arrow Ur timing might be exquisite - It DOES NOT matter.

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... We love her, but [she's] kind of holding us hostage to her demands.

She has this deep concern that we're NEVER coming back...


A, she's a dog.
She's not "presenting a ransom demand" - she's reacting to her circumstances.

B, U don't know that her "screaming" is due to fear that she's been abandoned.
That's an entirely subjective interpretation of her behavior.


Rationalizing that "I know how to do this" is inadequate.
Many ppl have already told U that essentially punishing a dog who's already in physical distress, & most-likely is also in emotional distress, is not appropriate - nor in my personal opinion, is it kind or humane. That shock works [she shuts up] is merely convenient.

I think that nothing anyone could say would dissuade U; i cannot remedy the dog's situation, & discussing it seems futile.
- terry

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