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How do you get your dog to "work for you not a scrap of food etc."

This is a discussion on How do you get your dog to "work for you not a scrap of food etc." within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; Originally Posted by Markie I do carry the toys around or I act like I have them but they don't get them tell the end ...

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Old 09-21-2017, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markie View Post
I do carry the toys around or I act like I have them but they don't get them tell the end of the day :-)
I liked your entire reply but this portion above kind of made me smile a bit because of something I used to do, basically what you described above. One of my mentors who knows more about dog training than I'll ever know, told me something about this practice of pretending/acting when it comes to what you might have in your possession. He gave me the good news and the bad news version; bad news for me was, I was never fooling my dog because she knew exactly what was or wasn't on my person and the good news was, I had learned to act very convincingly because I thought I was so clever and that I should take this "skill" and apply it beneficially in other areas of the dog's training. Plus he added, that all this time you thought you were baiting your dog to comply because you thought the dog knew there was pending reward in your jacket pocket when there really wasn't, the dog still minded properly but not for the reason you thought. It all made perfect sense.
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:05 PM
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@DriveDog I think I had my huskies fooled :-):-) I should give them a treat just because I played them :-) It will be an apology for playing them :-) LOL ?? just kidding but that would be funny to see :-):-)
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Old 09-21-2017, 06:16 PM
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Talking all the hard-wired stuff

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Originally Posted by PoppyKenna View Post

...
When the behavior itself is the reward, that's probably the real jackpot.
I think that's what @Markie describes with her Huskies sledding. Huskies were bred to do that, so of course they love it!

...I think you get into the Premack principle a bit, because when you add control (i-e, go the direction I say, stop when I say, etc.) the reward [for compliance] is... to continue doing what the dog loves - sledding.

I'm not much of a hunter, but I imagine it would be much the same for my very driven working Cocker.
He'd hunt birds all day, & the action would be a reward in itself.

yup - those are self-rewarding behaviors, a subset of instinctive or breed-specific behaviors that are intrinsically satisfying.
Some - hunting, herding, harness work, guarding, scent work - are highly desirable.
Others - barking, chasing, opportunistic eating, escaping, etc - are problematic, & preventing them via Mgmt is important.

For some years, the U-S Customs service 'employed' shelter staff & volunteers to alert them to potential working dogs.
Eager to avoid killing any more dogs than they absolutely had to, they'd tip off Customs that they had a likely dog -
& a Customs rep would come by to assess the dog. // They set an incredibly high bar; these are untrained, often neglected young dogs, over 6-MO & under 3-YO.
One Chessie was a fetching fool, & the Customs rep worked that dog in chest-deep mud at low tide, on a 90'F day with 90% humidity, for 45-minutes straight. He refused her b/c she sat down to get her breath, her lungs working like bellows, her tongue purple & spooning, & covered in flaking gobs of muck from her chin to her tail.
I thot he was a prize jerk; he let a workaholic dog with great potential slip away, plus he risked her collapsing - she had a core-temp of 103.5'F when we brought her back in.
We hosed her off with tepid water, then gave her small amounts of water to drink while she slowly cooled-out in the AC. // We didn't dare let her lie down for long, 'cuz after all that crazy aerobic demand, she'd stiffen & be unable to rise.

Dog-aggro & subsequent fighting are powerfully self-rewarding, too -
an intact-M GSP who came with his owners to the local quarry was a Major Problem, this dog was so fight-crazy, given a choice among his fave-food, a F in heat, & any M dog to fight, desexed or intact, he'd choose fight every time.
My GSD/Kees X never so much as lifted a lip at another dog, OTHER THAN dogs harassing our stock; however, he wasn't allowed to so much as step on the blanket at the quarry, to keep mud & sand off, & when the GSP barreled across it, nearly running me over bodily, flinging dirty slop everywhere, & crushing the insulated lunch-bag, Wolf lost it.
I had to BODILY pick-up & carry my 90# dog to the car, trying to avoid being clawed, as he struggled to get down & nail that rude #@$%!

After the GSP badly-hurt one dog & killed another [he bled-out in the car, on the way to the vet's], a group of us got together & confronted the owners of the dog-aggro GSP & his sidekick, an uncontrolled 180# Great Dane, that their dogs were not welcome; the next time they came to the quarry, they'd come dogless, or we'd call the cops.

Trained / taught behaviors might be overridden by instinctive behaviors under intense stress, or can pop-up when triggered, such as a predatory reflex response when a bunny unexpectedly launches practically under the nose of a dog who's off-leash at heel, & s/he takes off after the cottontail.
Shorthand, 'Pavlov trumps Skinner'.

- terry


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Old 09-21-2017, 06:20 PM
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@DriveDog I really did think I was fooling them. :-) I just like laughing and make fun of my huskies they are goof balls :-):-)
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post
yup - those are self-rewarding behaviors, a subset of instinctive or breed-specific behaviors that are intrinsically satisfying.
Some - hunting, herding, harness work, guarding, scent work - are highly desirable.
Others - barking, chasing, opportunistic eating, escaping, etc - are problematic, & preventing them via Mgmt is important.


- terry



I appreciate your observation and opinion but an important note to be added to this self-rewarding tendency in dogs is to also appreciate when the dog is self-regulating its very own self-rewarding behavior via the lessons learned through handler guidance. In my case, dog aggression/reactivity, it was like a drug addiction to my dog when she was younger but we worked through it to the greater degree. Your mention of undesirable self-rewarding behavior is probably more difficult to modify than making acceptable behaviors self-rewarding if they are not innately present, both are work but one is generally easier than the other. Running down a decoy and putting a bite on is easy for certain breeds with the proper nerve and training but getting the same dog to self-regulate itself and not partake in the same desire is generally much more difficult but certainly doable. I have had to work much harder to get a dog to self-regulate and exhibit impulse control than I have had to indulge the desirable self-rewarding behaviors. Thinking that a dog's nature finds it self-rewarding to run out 50 yards from me and then hit the dirt on my command seems difficult for me to assume but yet the dog will eagerly do it.

What I am truly trying to get at, is how we might actually make a behavior
"intrinsically satisfying." when it isn't innate, no baiting and bribing allowed once the dog knows what we want.
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Old 09-21-2017, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveDog View Post
Mostly for pet behaviors as that would be more the focus of this forum. However, "sports related behaviors" or other tasks above and beyond standard pet behaviors which I train my dog in because it is practical as well as beneficial to the overall "product". This type of behavior cannot be rewarded always as you well know and also described in an earlier post. Mondio and French ring as well as IPO competitions allow for no material reward being present as you cited. So, I assume you meant when training sports-related behaviors you pretty much always reward. Hopefully, I have that correct.

My overall curiosity was regarding the methods some in here might use to fade material reward above and beyond randomness. I appreciate that many have dogs which work for food, most certainly will, and many have dogs which will work for ball/tug rewards, again many a dog certainly will. I know what I have done to try and create my current dog's skill set to be motivated in the absence of any food/toy reward because it seems to make everything better but more work to get there. I think it was Kmes who might have said earlier that the actual commanded behavior might become the reward in itself. I like that viewpoint and I believe this is what I am probably seeing in my dog. I build the anticipation up front, as much as the dog can handle without breaking discipline and have had good results by using this building of anticipation and getting the dog in the proper mode, no material reward is needed. I hope you understand what I am trying to say. I try and train/play everyday with my dog. Sometimes I might have the tug, most times I have nothing except praise and a slap on the ribs for her. Send outs/returns with a crisp platz at high speed, position changes at a distance (no creep), tight finishes on return, parking, covers, focused heels, prancing ( as I call it, dog high steps), weaving through my legs, jumping over obstacles etc.. these are the exercises I work on with no food/toy rewards. I suppose I could and originally I did when I taught the behavior but that isn't my goal. I just don't want the dog to work for food/toys because of the obvious.
Yes, no material rewards during a trial. I do reward very heavily during training.

You know I am going to ask for a video of you and your dog training, right?

Would love to see a video of a dog that can perform without material rewards, especially session after session. I've yet to see one in any of the clubs I've been to.

Went to a Bart Bellon seminar several years ago, the result of a NePoPo trained dog is one that can perform without rewards, command=reward. However, I really haven't seen one in a trial.
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Old 09-21-2017, 08:23 PM
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Red face NePoPo: not on my menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by San View Post

...
Went to a Bart Bellon seminar several years ago; the result of a NePoPo trained dog is one that can perform without rewards, command = reward.
However, I really haven't seen one in a trial.
_____________________________________________
QUOTE,
"NePoPoŽ:
A method developed by renowned trainer Bart Bellon, using negative reinforcement together with positive reinforcement. It is an extremely effective method of training, & uses very low levels of electric collar stimulation applied as a command is given (-ve / NE), the stimulation is continued until the dog performs the behavior (+ve / PO), once the behavior is performed, the dog is rewarded (+ve / PO).
The dog is essentially reinforced twice for the behavior, once by the cessation of the stimulation, & again by the reward."


see one trainer's brief description of their adapted version of NePoPo at
Working Dog Forum - View Single Post - Nepopo

In fact, the process as described is Pos-P [apply shock], Neg-R [shock ceases when behavior is performed], Pos-R [reward]. // 'Positive' in learning theory / quadrants is actually maths, it's not "good / nice", it's ADD. We add something. Similarly, 'negative' deducts something.
So "Neg/Pos/Pos" isn't a very accurate label. Of course, Punish/Stop/Reward doesn't lend itself to nifty acronyms.
[PuStRew?]

Pos-P adds a punisher - something the learner will work to avoid.
Pos-R adds a reinforcer - something the learner will gladly work to earn.
Neg-R deducts a punisher; we remove something the learner will work to avoid.
Neg-P deducts a reinforcer; we remove something the learner would gladly work to earn.

Trainers who use reward-based methods overwhelmingly use Pos-R & a minimum of Neg-P;
Neg-R is always problematic; it almost invariably involves applying an aversive in order to 'deduct' it.

Traditional trainers use Pos-P // add punishment via choke / prong / shock / other, & possibly verbal praise.

Balanced trainers use Pos-P [apply punishers], neg-R [deduct punishers], plus pos-R [rewards], with or w/o neg-R.

- terry

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Old 09-21-2017, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by San View Post
You know I am going to ask for a video of you and your dog training, right?

Would love to see a video of a dog that can perform without material rewards, especially session after session. I've yet to see one in any of the clubs I've been to.
I'll send you a PM.

I will not disagree with anything you have said. I am simply trying to get a dog to do more for less of what many of us believe is the only way to get a dog to execute.
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Old 09-22-2017, 07:55 AM
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While I have not taken the time to read this whole thread, I just wanted to remind everyone that this is a positive reinforcement forum only. While I understand the mention or discussion of other methods is sometimes important to add to conversation, this forum focuses only on methods of positive reinforcement.
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Old 09-22-2017, 08:43 AM
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What I am truly trying to get at, is how we might actually make a behavior
"intrinsically satisfying." when it isn't innate, no baiting and bribing allowed once the dog knows what we want.
By repeated pairing of the behavior with something the dog does find intrinsically satisfying. When you train, Pavlov is always on your shoulder.

From the article I linked earlier,
Quote:
Indeed, one key reason rewards work is that they facilitate what psychologist Alan Kazdin, director of the Yale Parenting Center and author of The Kazdin Method for Parenting the Defiant Child, calls “repeated practice.” The more your child does the good things you reward him for—tidying up, using a fork, stifling a tantrum—the more routine that behavior becomes. And, eventually, it just becomes part of who he is.
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