Herding/ Grabbing my arm in a playful way, when I run - how di I work with that?

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Herding/ Grabbing my arm in a playful way, when I run - how di I work with that?

This is a discussion on Herding/ Grabbing my arm in a playful way, when I run - how di I work with that? within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; Hi. Right away, following with a second question. My dog is mostly a herding dog (mongrel; father: Australian Shepher; mother: Border Collie/ Labrador. Guess that ...

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Old 06-05-2019, 08:21 PM
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Herding/ Grabbing my arm in a playful way, when I run - how di I work with that?

Hi.


Right away, following with a second question.


My dog is mostly a herding dog (mongrel; father: Australian Shepher; mother: Border Collie/ Labrador. Guess that makes him an Australian Border Sheblador or anything, as there are hardly any mix breeds left only Golden Doodle and what's not ).


I mention that, because that's sort of what I want to work on.
Good news is: He doesn't care much for bikes, cars, jogger, ...
They come, I call him to me, and usually all's fine.
It was actually easy to teach him that; did that from the beginning, he never cared in a herding way only a "I want to say hello way".


What I want to work on: When I run next to him, he gets excited and grabs my arm with his mouth.
It's not in a bad way, it doesn't hurt - it's plain to see that he wants to play and it's not that he has hands to grab.
And at times I do that.
He also didn't do it from the beginning; when he was a puppy he would just run next to me, having a blast.
And that's what I want again.


I don't want him to play, I don't want him to think: "Ooooh, herding light, nice!" or anything.
I don't even want him to nudge his head at me than - and, more important, at the daughter of a friend of mine.
(He doesn't hurt her; but his nose nudges her, when she runs and I don't want that either).


I'm not a jogging person, but I am aware, that I should be a little bit (for me), so I thought about getting to it at some point.
So far, he's just a little over a year, so it wasn't acute, that I might run with him.
Actually it's still not, as I hate it


But I want to him to be able to.
I also would like to start Agility or something, so it would help there too or just when we have to run to get a bus.


And even though he doesn't hurt me, I also want him to get smoother with his mouth in these moments; some people are more sensitive then me, so I want to be sure.


I know it's a training thing and that he will learn it eventually.
I'm just looking for some good ways to have him learn that in playful ways.



Ultimate goal here: Him being able to run next to me.
And mainly play with me, when I invite him to.
After all, he's a dog, not a machine. I don't need him working properly 100%, 24/7.


I know it's a bit of a breed thing; so I don't want to totally forbid it.
One of sisters does exactly the same; her mistress (is that really the right term?) had a pure bred Aussie before her, and she did the same also (they trained with her to not do it anymore, as well).


So, I am open do ideas, variants, anything.



Cheers,
Nicky




EDIT: Oh god, please can mod correct the typo in the title? I'm dying right now
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Old 06-25-2019, 07:45 PM
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Usually not something I do, but I will do so twice anyway.


Push.


No one any ideas whatsoever?
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Old 06-25-2019, 08:18 PM
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Sorry I'm really not an expert, but would it help at all to ask him to sit when he does this or to stop running ask him to sit or to turn away when he grabs you? I mean a similar approach to teaching dogs not to jump on you.

Also if you mean 'Besitzer' for mistress, probably would just say owner unless I got that wrong!
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:28 AM
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Unfortunately you’ve run into a problem that many people with herding breeds have. In fact, I’d say most people with herding breeds have this problem, as the majority of dogs that are herding breeds, well, herd.

The reason you’re having a hard time knocking this behavior is because it’s what the breeds your dog predominantly is was bred for over hundreds of years. It’s hardwired into working dogs like border collies and australian shepherds to exhibit this behavior. Similarly, asking a herding dog not to herd would be like asking a greyhound not to chase.

Your best bet would be to train impulse control. There are some really good YouTube videos on how to do this, but it might be best to get a trainer involved if you can. (Just make sure they’re a positive reinforcement based trainer or they may wind up doing more harm than good)

You can also try to give the dog something to do instead of something not to do. Training a really good recall and following it up with a ball or frisbee toss helped Cosmo a lot and gave him something to do other than herding that he also finds fun and values. He targets dogs that are smaller than him, which was frustrating at the dog park. After some training he did a lot better. A lot of it has to do with the intensity that the herding instinct is. Luckily your dog is a mix which usually makes it easier to work with (not always, but usually)

Good luck! Your pup is adorable
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Old 06-27-2019, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kakite View Post
...to ask him to sit when he does this or to stop running ask him to sit or to turn away when he grabs you? ...
What I do at the moment (but I really need to do it more often, I have to admit that), is to stop running the moment he jumps at me and have him calm down a bit.



It works okay and it will probably get better, once I do it more regularly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kakite View Post
Also if you mean 'Besitzer' for mistress, probably would just say owner unless I got that wrong!
Yeah... owner.... Would have been to easy, as I already know that term for a quite a while
I'm just dumb


In short: Nope, you didn't get it wrong



Quote:
Originally Posted by cos View Post
... majority of dogs that are herding breeds, well, herd.
Absolutely, and luckily I am aware of that.
Not sure how, but some people seem to really forget that.


From his perspective he is having a blast and doing a good thing.
That's why I don't really scold him, just stop, so he connects to play in a different way or go easier with the teeth, when I allow him to do it.
(Again, I'm not in pain, but he can't play like that witch children. That's why I want him to stop that and only do it with my "okay" to do so).

I'm not only working again what he loves doing and is having fun, I'm also trying to get him to sort of contradict his genes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cos View Post
...with a ball or frisbee toss helped Cosmo a lot and gave him something to do other than herding that he also finds fun and values.
Revan doesn't play that much with toys like that, because I didn't do it that often with him, as not to get him too exited for hunting.
I do have a frisbee though, because I hope that in moderation it would be a nice alternative.

I will also get a... "Reizangel" in German... I took the first picture online, to show what I mean.

A friend of mine has one, and he seems to like it very much.
I tried it yesterday without any rules, only having him hunt the dummy and let him get it at times.
So I will order it later and also look for ways to train and not only play with him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cos View Post
He targets dogs that are smaller than him,...
That is actually something Revan doesn't do.
When playing he likes the rough and tumble games as well as running after each other; when doing the latter he snaps a little at the hind legs, but it doesn't seem to bother the other dogs, so I guess it's okay like that (luckily). He also doesn't usually mind, when the others do that to him.


At times he gets a bit hyper; then I call him back to me (most of the times it does work, seldom I have to go get him), before I have the feeling that it looks like the beginning of a little mobbing.



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Good luck! Your pup is adorable
Thank you very much!
For both!
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Old 06-27-2019, 07:36 AM
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My Shepherd pup does this when we jog sometimes. I I say a firm No and hold my hand up higher, if he tries again I do the same thing and use my body not my hands to push him away from me. If he keeps doing it I stop, and do a fast walk completely ignoring him till he is walking without grabbing me and we try jogging again.
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Old 06-27-2019, 03:23 PM
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I suppose my response wasn’t to try to use Cosmo as a comparison, but just offer suggestions of things I’ve tried. It sounds like you’re trying out many different things that could work. I might also look into training a good “watch me” command so her attention is focused on you while you’re moving and not your arms. Best of luck.
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Old 06-27-2019, 04:09 PM
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Honestly, in agility I see this behaviour way more often in the labs that run than I do the herders.

Moving is arousing, chasing is fun. This goes for any breed (in fact the most common bites dogs I know are Goldens, Labs, and Terriers) This is certainly not a herding behaviour. Especially considering gripping/biting is a highly undesirable trait in a working sheepdog. Dogs that grip are those that lack the power to move the stock, and get frustrated.

I would argue that nipping and biting is NOT a breed specific thing, and 100% should not be tolerated. So, teach him what is an is not acceptable to put his teeth on: Toys, yes. Balls, absolutely. People’s clothes or skin - no way.

All my puppies learn pretty early on, if they touch my skin, the game is over. I drop the toy, and leave the room. As a result, they learn to be very careful. I can put my hands close together over a tug toy, and slowly slide them apart. Even if I am saying “Get it, get it, get it” they will wait until my hands are out of the way. And I have crazy, psycho agility dogs that love to tug. :P

For the movement, if he jumps up when you’re running, immediately stop. I wouldn’t even say anything, attention can be quite reinforcing, and the dog might think you’re still playing. If he continues to jump up once you’ve stopped running, gently take a hold of his collar to prevent the jumping (not mean, don’t yell or shake or anything, just prevent it from happening).

As far as the little girl, I would teach a very strong “lie down” so if she starts running and so does he, you can cue the down to break the arousal. I would also encourage her to play different games with him like fetch, or frisbee. You could be a great instructor on why kids shouldn’t run and scream near any breed of dog. :P

In agility, I can tell you, dogs that bite, jump up, or bark at their handlers are the ones that aren’t receiving the information fast enough, so they turn back in frustration.

I will say, a year old is right smack in the middle of obnoxious adolescent behaviour, so hang in there, keep the rules consistent and fair and you’ll come out the other side with a great dog (How could he not be, he’s a Border Collie )
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Old 06-30-2019, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydneybear View Post
My Shepherd pup does this when we jog sometimes. I I say a firm No and hold my hand up higher, if he tries again I do the same thing and use my body not my hands to push him away from me. ...
Tried that once already.
He thought it was an awesome game


It is similar to the way, I try to work with it though




Quote:
Originally Posted by cos View Post
I suppose my response wasn’t to try to use Cosmo as a comparison, but just offer suggestions of things I’ve tried.
Maybe I did.


It makes it easier, to get some thoughts across, when using examples/ comparisons.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandula View Post
Honestly, in agility I see this behaviour way more often in the labs that run than I do the herders.
He is my first own dog, so I can't speak of my own experience there.


According to a trainer it's at very least breed related due to the herding.


To be honest though: I don't think it's *that* important, whether it's to his genes or because he just is having fun.
One way might take longer to learn then the other.
But I am certain he will learn it step by step.


From his perspective he's doing everything right and it makes sense for him, I'm sure.
So the key will patience, I'm sure.


And after all:
I knew what I was getting myself into, when I picked a mixed breed like this and I knew, what I would have most likely to work on more or less compared to other breeds


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandula View Post
Especially considering gripping/biting is a highly undesirable trait in a working sheepdog. Dogs that grip are those that lack the power to move the stock, and get frustrated.
A friend of mine, who has sheep and lets her Border Collie work on them regularly, told me that it might happen in the beginning, will usually stop with training.


So essentially: Work with him, and it will get better.
Nothing really new or surprising, obviously (puppies usually don't come incredibly well trained ), so it's mostly about taking time and working with him.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandula View Post
For the movement, if he jumps up when you’re running, immediately stop. I wouldn’t even say anything, attention can be quite reinforcing, and the dog might think you’re still playing. If he continues to jump up once you’ve stopped running, gently take a hold of his collar to prevent the jumping (not mean, don’t yell or shake or anything, just prevent it from happening).
I usually stop, say "no" and keep walking normally.
Most the time, he jumps once or twice and then walks by my side.
I actually hardly ever have to use the harness to hold him with.


I never yell or shake him.
Gave me some snide remarks and eyes rolling, but I want him to learn, not to be scared or insecure of what to do.
Might take a little longer at times, but I prefer that way anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandula View Post
As far as the little girl, I would teach a very strong “lie down” so if she starts running and so does he, you can cue the down to break the arousal.
He hates to lie down on command, so I would probably use a "sit!"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandula View Post
I would also encourage her to play different games with him like fetch, or frisbee.
She's not so much playing with him, but playing alone.
Which makes it worse, not better, I know.


When she plays with a ball (she plays fetch with the dogs of her Mom. Mine just runs along), it also might happen, that he jumps her.
Due to his claws this can actually hurt at times; and where grown-ups go "Meh, don't care", children are more sensitive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandula View Post
You could be a great instructor on why kids shouldn’t run and scream near any breed of dog. :P
I'm actually proud of Revan, how he ignores most kids.
But sometimes, when they *do* run and scream...



I didn't introduce to him enough different children, when he was a puppy, so it's my fault, that he is so jittery around kids.
Unfortunately I don't know many kids around here, and missed the opportunity to teach him, with the kids I train.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandula View Post
In agility, I can tell you, dogs that bite, jump up, or bark at their handlers are the ones that aren’t receiving the information fast enough, so they turn back in frustration.
Language problem.
I know and understand the words, but I am not sure if get the right meaning in that context.


Can you reword for me, what you mean by they're not receiving the message fast enough?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shandula View Post
I will say, a year old is right smack in the middle of obnoxious adolescent behaviour, so hang in there, keep the rules consistent and fair and you’ll come out the other side with a great dog (How could he not be, he’s a Border Collie )
He mostly is great already


I probably make him sound like a monster, but he's mostly awesome.
Where he's not, it's my fault not his.


A friend of mine told me to pinch him in the neck, when he was a puppy, when he did worse things (like when nipping my legs as a baby), as his Mom does the same.
But... I don't know. I am not his Mom or a dog at all, and I'm pretty sure, he is aware of that , so I really don't like doing that and didn't do it.
And most things he learned anyway.


Problems mostly occur, when he has so many impressions coming at him, he's not used to, so he's highly energized and probably stops thinking a little, due to all the excitement.



As far as puberty and the such goes - he was great!
He mostly blazed though it!
Biggest problem there was, that he started pulling when on leash again.
Aside from that - like a dream!
So I really am in no position to complain there


I hope the rest will go nearly as smoothly.
He's still young, so he also deserves some slack, when things doesn't work out right away.
He has to learn them first, and then has to keep remembering them, when his brain chemistry is re-wiring after all.
I already hated my own puberty and hardly lived though it
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