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ExtremelyAggressive Puppy

5K views 40 replies 13 participants last post by  lilpenquin 
#1 ·
Karma is a 12 week old husky mix (we believe). However, she was sold to us as being an Aussie/Border Collie. She is now incredibly aggressive, but half of the time she is super snuggly. :confused:
Please don't tell me its just puppy biting. We work with a very experienced trainer and she has never seen a puppy this aggressive and it is getting worse with each passing week. When she was a tiny puppy she was left on the side of the road with her littermates in missouri. we got her from the person who picked her up and raised her. My trainer said we could surrender her to our humane society in town and she would pick her up and work with her until she is ready for adoption, but then i'd feel guilty for "giving up on her." but at the same time, our trainer is very expensive for boarding training and she said she couldnt guarantee that she would come out to be a non aggressive, family safe dog. (my boyfriend and I are going to be getting married and starting a family in the next 5 years.)
Please give me some advice. I love my baby.
 
#2 ·
Could you give more information on how she is being aggressive? Also, what type of training have been using to fix it?
 
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#3 ·
Yeah I'm not sure I buy it. Puppies are puppies. They do puppy things. I think there is probably the odd dog that has a mis-wired brain but for the most part I do not believe puppies are aggressive. They are what we make them
 
#4 ·
It almost seems like a personal space thing. Last night she was laying between my boyfriend and I and I went to pet her and she started growling. I told her no in a stern voice (not yelling) and she snapped at me. So I went to put her on the floor to indicate she doesn't get to be by us when she is acting like that and as I went pick her up she came at me face with her lips curled snarling and biting me. This happens almost every day completely randomly. I have no idea when I touch her if she will be okay or attack me. It isn't always related to if he has food or a toy either. She can be just laying or sitting with nothing and come out and attack.

We've done clicker training and positive reinforcement. That's what we started with. Now we use a stern no and ignore her when she is misbehaving in addition to positive reinforcement.

She gets enough time to run around outside and play and get her energy out every day. She's on a high quality food and has free access to water. My boyfriend has had 8 dogs from puppies in his life and he's never had a dog not respond well to any training. She's never hit or abused in any way. Other than the random aggression she is very good. She walks loose leash most of the time and sits stays lays down comes and shakes. When we feed her we do it through a puzzle toy otherwise she scarfs it down without chewing at all.

I know we have a good trainer. She has a lot of the qualifications one should have for not only just general training but she s certified for behavior modification for nearly any problem and has even written a book.

I need advice, ideas, and most of all I need to know that there is a chance for her. It's gotten really bad. I know you might doubt that she is aggressive but if you were here and saw it you'd be running in the other direction.
 
#6 ·
you need to rule out any medical problems first whether its hormonal or a brain defect, there is also the possibility that she's in pain and thats the reason she's snapping at you when you are touching her.

I can't really give any other advice but my best guess would be that besides a medical problem its fearfulness.
 
#7 ·
Thank you for replying and not doubting me. It could be a medical problem like that which we haven't yet tested for, but we've tested for all the basics. Much of the time, she loves to be petted and touched and have belly rubs and everything. its just that sometimes she decides that she wants to rip our heads off.

She's shown no sort of fearfulness towards anything else ever. she's very brave about things. We've decided to keep her until her next vet appointment on friday and see what they say.
 
#11 ·
If she's resource guarding she could very well be fearless toward everyday stuff, but be fearful and anxious about having her stuff taken. That's how my dog was, even as a puppy. He had no problem exploring the great outdoors, playing with other pups or much larger dogs and meeting people, he was fine with random loud noises, but if I tried to get near his food while he was eating or touched him when he had a high value chew, he'd freeze, lift his lips and growl and snarl.

The funny thing about resource guarders is that it's not always edibles that they guard, they can and do guard just about anything, it could be a spot on the couch or your bed or their bed, individual people or animals, toys, something in the yard or the yard itself. What they guard depends on the individual dog and what it finds valuable.

I could be off base thinking your girl is resource guarding, which is the other reason I suggest finding a good behaviorist to try and help and taking her to the vet. To me it sounds like it's what she's doing, but it's hard to say for certain since I can't actually see the behavior.
 
#8 ·
As Spotsonofbun has stated first take her to the vet, explain what is going on, and make sure it's nothing medical.

Personally I think it sounds like she is hardcore, excessively resource guarding and you should look for a trainer or behaviorist that has lots of experience with that behavioral problem, and look for one that uses positive reinforcement methods only since all any dominant / punishment based methods will do it at best suppress the behavior but not fix the reason for it, or at worse turn your pup into one that will bite first ask questions later in order to protect her stuff.

Please do not ever correct or punish her for growling, also don't ignore her growling, all that will do is teach her that it's bad to growl and she will feel she has to escalate the behavior since you won't listen to her. Growling is a dogs way of politely saying, please stop what you are doing, if you don't I'm going to feel I have to bite to stop you.

Take a look at this sticky link and see if it sounds like your pup. http://www.dogforum.com/dog-behavior/resource-guarding-causes-prevention-modification-7511/

This link has some good behaviorist International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC)
 
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#9 ·
from my understanding (im not experienced in this) a lot of what can cause changes in behaviour is not in regular testing so it might be worth while to post in the health section in this forum here and see what people might suggest.

Humans have spent 15 000 years in breeding human aggression out of dogs this is very abnormal and rare even in breeds that were bred to protect. There is always a reason behind aggression and i don't think you can counter condition or train without knowing why she is doing this. If she checks out medically you should maybe get a second opinion from another behaviouralist (that uses PR).
 
#10 ·
Also to add to what rain said remember that dogs don't only resource guard toys or food they can guard people or places on furniture etc...
 
#12 ·
Opps! I was writing a response to Lilpenquins response when you posted. Sorry about repeating you.
 
#13 ·
For the health testing, thyroid tests are usually performed when there is an onset of agressive issues. You have to specifically ask for a thyroid panel, it is not included in regular bloodwork.

You mentioned that it is not always with toys. Just to clarify, sometimes it is? If so that is basic resource guarding of valued items. It can, as others have mentioned, also occur in rooms, to people, doggy playmates, etc. Our dog even resource guarded a river one day when he and some of his dog friends were playing in it.

The book, "Mine!" may be a good resource for you (I'm blanking on the author right now though).
 
#14 ·
Our trainer is qualified for aggresive dogs. Her boarding training rates are very high so she has agreed to take her on and when her training is adequate, she will find a new home for her. I'd keep her but her breed test came back and she is husky pitbull mix and our apartment has a strict policy against pits. :( I love her to death but I can't keep her. Thank you all so much. In the week I have left with her I'm going to be the best mommy I can to her and love her. This was a really hard decision to make. :(
 
#15 ·
this is very intense behaviour at 12 weeks.

I have a far fetched and unlikely hypothesis but considering the severity it might be a possibility.

Think of where you live or where the litter was found. Is it possible that the puppies may have less then domesticated parents? maybe just one parent. With less than domesticated I mean the wild members of the canine family such as wolfs and other wild dogs. They can interbreed with the domesticated dogs.

If they were found in a city or in an area where such animals are very rare then don't worry about it.

I really don't mean to be an alarmist or frighten you and remember this is just a suggestion from a crazy person on the internet.

its just one of the many possibilities but i still think its most likely medical.
 
#16 ·
its understandable at least she is in capable hands and won't be euthanised you couldn't rehome her to just anyone. I don't think less of you.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Please, please read the links Rain posted for you. Also read the Calming Signals sticky post in the behavior section and the sticky called Suppression/fallout in the behavior or training section.

You are missing warnings indicating her stress and then correcting her, so it is no wonder she is getting more aggressive. Many dogs are not comfortable with people petting them, and it's likely her associations with people have been limited. If that (telling her no) is how your trainer indicated you should handle her reaction, then do not let her take her for training! Guaranteed, she will not get better with that training. Read those links! You have a week left, and if you go about it correctly, you could see a big difference. Being the "best mommy" means respecting her discomfort and stress and changing your behavior to minimize it and helping her be more comfortable with people/handling thru training.

Again, do not punish the low level warnings or even the bites! You are just confirming her feelings that she needed to protect herself and that she should be uncomfortable when you are near. Just because you aren't hitting or yelling, doesn't mean she doesn't perceive your actions as punishment or threatening.

You should be managing the situations by a) not letting her on the places she gaurds, b) having her drag a leash so you can remove her without touching her, c) rewarding her with treats (not petting) whenever you pass her or are next to her, and/or d) teach her an up and down with PR on a spot she isn't RGing.

Read those posts... They should help you understand what is going on.

Also Mine! Is by Jean Donaldson.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#18 ·
Certainly sounds like very intense resource guarding to me as well.

Unless your trainer is explaining this, and naming this problem as "resource guarding", then I'm dubious about how qualified she/he is to handle this problem.

Read the sticky linked to you.

And you must quit with the stern voice and quit with picking her up. Both those actions on your part will escalate her tension and aggression.

It sounds like the pup has quite a severe case of this problem, (the origins are really genetic) and even with the right training, she may not turn out to be trustworthy with children.
 
#20 ·
The trainer did indicate intense resource guarding. That is what she will be working with her on. The decision has been made. as spotsonofbun said, she will be in capable hands and she won't be euthanized because of a behavioral problem. I'm guessing this is a genetic problem and seeing as i will be starting a family in the next few years, i have to be absolutely certain that she will behave with a baby, and because of this, I can never fully trust her, although I do love her. So I will be spending these last few days with her playing with her and loving her. Sorry you guys probably think i'm a horrible owner, but I really would do anything for any animal and this is in the best interest of all involved.
 
#21 ·
I don't think you are a horrible owner at all.

I think you are a smart one who knows she may be in over her head, and a loving one that is willing to let the pup go to a person who can give her the help that she needs and get her rehomed while she's still a pup and will more easily find a new home.

I also know that you need to think of your future children. Intense resource guarding is manageable, but not something you want to take a chance with when you are also dealing with babies / small children that cannot defend themselves, especially when the pup will grow into a medium sized dog that's capable of harming or killing a baby/child. If I was going to be starting a family and ended up getting a pup like that I'd most likely do the same thing.

Enjoy the time you have left with the pup, and ask the trainer if s/he would mind you calling for updates on how she's doing.
 
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#23 ·
I'm having such a hard time doing the right thing. I've been crying all day knowing that my days are numbered with her. She loves to cuddle up to me when I get home and even more so when I let her out of her crate in the morning. It breaks my heart to let this little one go, but I know its the right thing to do :'(
 
#24 ·
I know how you feel. We had to make a similarly tough decision once with a puppy... although we did not have as good of an option as you have.

Cry away. Grieving is necessary here. You'll get through this time. Things may actually turn out OK for the pup too.
 
#26 ·
We're going to be getting another pup this summer. This time from a reputable breeder. we've decided on a samoyed because of how much they love being around their human family and children. They are also higher energy which forces us to get out of the house and exercise. I know they're very intelligent and love attention, which is exactly what we have to give.
 
#28 ·
Lilpenguin, I was on my phone in class while I was responding, so I wasn't trying to come off harsh. I was not judging your decision or implying you're a horrible owner, but I still think that you should read those links asap, so that her last days with you are comfortable and not stressful. They will help--promise. Play and cuddles is all good until she gets uncomfortable or RGs again... which sounds like a real possibility in the days you have left.

I glanced over your chosen breeder's site, and from what I saw, they seem to check out--however--all puppies are a crap shoot. You could take a pup from temperamentally sound parents and still come up with behavioral issues. What will happen to that pup/dog if something arises? I honestly think your best bet, since you're considering kids soon, is to go the rescue route with an organization who fosters. These rescues generally know their temperaments/suitabilities of their dogs much better than shelters (and adults are more "what you see is what you get" than pups obviously). If you check petfinder, petango, and adoptapet, you should be able to find a ton of rescues regardless of your location. My two cents....

Good luck and I hope this pup is able to be brought around and placed in a loving home.
 
#29 ·
12 weeks is very young to be resource gaurding. But hey, here you are.
Your pup has had a very bad start in life. Not able to play with litter mates, or be shown by the dam that certain behaviours are not welcome. So you have a complete social skill novice on your hands.

I would become this dogs leader. Not alpha, leader.
I would own everything it wants, and practice NILF, every single thing she wants, she has to do a behaviour for, eg sit. come. simple commands a 12 week can have fun with.

With the 'too big for your boots' dogs ive had, i start re evaluating my dog rules. Sofa's, that's for humans, same for beds. Certain rooms are for adult led down dogs only. But there is a crate in there for pups that want to be with us.

Any form of aggression, and the pup goes to the naughty corner/back garden etc anywhere away from being with you. Just stop immediately what you are doing, and remove either the dog, or yourself.

No going through doors before you, no walking out front on leash pulling.
Lots and lots of gentle positive reinforcement, and ignoring the bad behaviours till they exstinguish.

This type of dog, neads a leader. You dont sound confident enough just yet. And i cant blame you.
Boarding training, is perhaps something available in America, but not here. And to be honest, my dogs are perfectly behaved for me, me who puts the hours in each day training, walking, hunting, swimming with them. For my husband, less obedient.
So lets imagine, you can afford boarding training, the dog becomes a workable pet for the trainer. How is that going to help you establish yourself as the leader? I dont hold with others training your dog for you. But some here might.

Personally, you can kiss goodbye to a LOT of money for a animal behaviourist, or boarding training. And still no garauntee she'll come good.
This sounds like a dog for a experienced trainer with a lot of skill in behavioural adjustment therapy. That's not your average pet owner. Definately not.

Then fast forward say 5 yrs, you and your partner have your first child, that is taking up a LOT of its resource - You. What old behaviours are likely to surface? the aggression. Recipe for disaster.

Get a small mortgage to finance professionally assisted training, or bail now.
Think about what you imagined having a dog would be? walking in the woods, sitting at your feet at cafe, camping etc. Now superimpose your dog into those scenes, only now it weighs 30kg. Has a large jaw that can do a LOT of damage.

I have owned one of these dogs. A lovely rottie. We had the physical ilnesses ruled out by vet, then i got stuck in counter conditioning him. 4 yrs later, perfect pooch. Until one day, some small lad, with a out of control savage lunging on end of leash, got dragged toward us by his dog, and BANG. Out of nowhere came the old dog. He darn near killed that malamute that day. In front of the boy who loved it.
Tragic end to 4 yrs of training. You see you can often unknowingly end up managing the behaviours, rather than training them out. And management is temporary, whereas training will last.

Give the vet a go, rule out physical illness, then PTS is my tuppence worth. There are millions of unwanted dogs in pounds world wide, with no issues. You and yours deserve one.
 
#31 ·
How would NiLF help a resource guarder? My dog had to do something to get me to put down his food, or give him his chew, I went through doors and gates first, not because I practiced NiLF but because it was a way to reinforce what I'd trained him, and in some cases it was for safety. It never helped with his resource guarding. He knew I had given him the food, chew, treat etc, but once he possessed it he considered it his and had no desire to give it up. Playing trading games and teaching drop it is what helped the most.
 
#32 ·
I agree with Rain, and I think you're a little off-base with that one, Rotten. A NILF regimen just isn't something I'd ever recommend for a dog like this.

Paying money for a qualified behaviorist, especially in a case as extreme as this (age-wise at least), is not kissing it away. A qualified behaviorist is NOTHING like sending your dog to a board-and-train facility, and a trainer that has no skills in behavior modification (and whom doesn't use +R/-P) is no comparison either. I do agree that this dog needs a very skilled behaviorist, and is the kind of dog for a much more experienced owner.

BTW, for what it's worth, I don't see you situation with your Rottie as a complete tragic ending to four years of training, seeing as the other dog was out of control, and antagonizing your dog. And I believe that while truly training a behavior, rather than just suppressing it, in some instances management is always going to be a factor. Dogs aren't robots, and while they can be trained to the teeth, unknown factors in their environment as extreme as a dog lunging into your dogs space and creating a fight even with your attempts to get away or stop your dog, should always be factored in.
 
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