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What is the main factor you use to decide how smart a dog is?

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Dog Intelligence.

4K views 24 replies 16 participants last post by  smokey11 
#1 ·
An incident yesterday got me to thinking and talking to a few people. How do you decide/determine how smart/dumb a dog is? I'm talking practical and real world. How do you -personally- decided if a dog is smart or dumb?
 
#2 ·
That's an interesting question. I'm not a trainer and I've only had two dogs in my adult life. I always compared their smarts by how quickly they learn and retention. My last dog learned very quickly and retained very well. My current dog is slower but also has about the same retention.

IMHO, I think independence and training threshold have more to do with the trainer and how flexible they are with their training style based on the dog. I'm not sure I consider biddability part of intelligence, and it's kind of the same as independence, no?

I also don't have a lot of experience with dogs who have been suppressed to the point of not being a good problem solver, and with the two dogs I've had, their quickness to learn something corresponded with their problem solving abilities (i.e. my first dog learned quick and was really good with problem solving, my current dog doesn't learn quick and is slower to problem solve). I'm not sure if those two things always correspond, assuming the dog's problem solving ability hasn't been hindered by the trainer.

Anywho, I'll stop rambling...
 
#3 ·
Great idea on this quiz! This forum is filled with some smarteez so I presume we are going w/the same answers.

Sometimes it is tough to tell how smart a pup is as stubborness inhibits the abiltity to learn (or care) about doing tricks and such. I really think all dogs would have the ability to learn and do just about anything, it really just depends on how willing they are to learn and please their owner.

Breed has a lot to do with that in my opinion. Some dogs are bred to do it all and some are bred to do one task really well, so it depends. I'll be curious to see where this goes for results.
 
#4 ·
I'm hoping to get some details on answers. I went with problem solving and training threshold. Even a non-compliant dog can be extremely smart - terriers for instance. But you can get them to learn by giving them problems to solve and they will work for hours. Boarder collies (argue-ably on of the smartest dogs) are much more compliant but will still work unending-ly and can figure out how to do what you ask.
 
#5 ·
Humans base animal intelligence on what the animal will do for THEM
Hence labs are "smart" and chows are "dumb"
Dogs are smart and cats are dumb
Parrots smart, sparrows dumb
Horses smart, zebras dumb. Etc
So the answer to the question really is perception. If I train a goldfish to retrieve an item does that suddenly make it smart when it previously was dumb?

Trainability is all about motivators. If you can manipulate the enviroment to motivate the animal it can be trained.

Intellligence has no bearing on overall trainability. None.
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#6 ·
Humans base animal intelligence on what the animal will do for THEM
Hence labs are "smart" and chows are "dumb"
Dogs are smart and cats are dumb
Parrots smart, sparrows dumb
Horses smart, zebras dumb. Etc
So the answer to the question really is perception. If I train a goldfish to retrieve an item does that suddenly make it smart when it previously was dumb?

Trainability is all about motivators. If you can manipulate the enviroment to motivate the animal it can be trained.

Intellligence has no bearing on overall trainability. None.
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I think this is well said.
 
#13 · (Edited)
In my opinion its a mixture of retention of commands, problem solving and speed in which they learn. It depends on what your dog does during in the day.

Independence and compliance i think are down to the owner, nothing to do with intelligence. Training threshold is more to do with stamina and sort of jobs the dog was originally bred to do.

I put retention of commands as like Criosphynx mentioned it is the most useful to me! lol and i guess with fully trained working dogs they need to remember everything they have been taught rather then problem solve (in some cases) and learn new things quickly. I have never trained or owned a working dog so i could be wrong there!
 
#14 ·
I'm gonna go with the grain and agree with Crio here lol.

I'm not even sure what I think about human intelligence. Some humans are called dumb, just because they might not learn the things most do, yet they could if they wanted to. I would probably be considered quite dumb when it comes to maths, if I tried studying more I could be smarter in maths. (if that makes any sense at all lol)
 
#16 ·
Crio is right and awesome, like usual ;)

I think my dog(s) are "smart" due to their ability to problem solve without my guidance. Lilly figured out how to open up cupboards on her own to get to her food. They figured out the glass table eventually.. Although I think Lilly is a better problem solver/creative more than Dexi is. Dexi listens to me a lot more and is more bonded to me and thus I think she expects me to do anything for her when shes having issues lol like she wont try very hard to get a toy under the couch. She'll just look at me and cry, whereas Lilly will dig it out and run off with it...
 
#17 · (Edited)
For me it's the ability to solve problems (especially new problems presented that build of old concepts) and the ability to learn new tasks (again, especially applying earlier knowledge to achieve the goal).

The rest seem more like personality traits than intellectual traits.

When I see Wally thinking about how to get something from somewhere with no prompting from me - just see him looking and trying different things, I think that's displaying his intelligence.

Him following me around is just because he's a velcro dog lol or because he's seeing if I might give him more food :p And maybe he even likes me a little :D

I don't know if intelligence has zero to do with teaching dogs things. Motivation "gets them in the game", but if they can never understand what the game is... I just stay away from absolutes like 0 and 100%. There's a lot of factors that can get involved. Heck, Wally's past neglect and abuse might impact everything in ways I'll never fully uncover. Maybe some of his intelligences/mental development have been suppressed

I think it's like with people - some people learn different things better, but struggle with other things. I believe in the Multiple Intelligence theory. I think it's the same way with dogs. Wally's better using his paws to do things, but isn't as good sniffing out things without seeing where I put it first, but if he's seeking by sight, he'll find it. He seems good at comparing objects by sight as an extension (just the other day, he figured out the slipper lying on the floor was just like the one he was shaping with that I put in the chair).

Obviously, he's not a "dumb dog" because he doesn't sniff out stuff like a blood hound, but some things he's more gifted/aware/whatever with.
 
#18 ·
Thanks for everyone's input. I wasn't looking for a right/wrong but I do like how problem solving was a run-away winner on the poll.

I'm guessing there was so much agreement here because we are truly "doggie" people. I would have expected that answer on a trainers board also. After all, a problem solving dog has the ability to learn for experience, they tend to remember what they has/has not worked in the past, and have a perseverance which allows them to work thru issues.

But without decent, it leaves a problem in my head. I will formulate it better and post another thread.

Thanks again!
 
#19 · (Edited)
i definitely see problem solving as a key attribute of intelligence. i think that most people confuse biddability with intelligence in dogs. and their inability to motivate the dog = the dog is stupid. still,there are so many ways to look at and judge intelligence, who's to say that biddability isn't a measure in and of itself? dogs are so unique in their interactions with humans, and if being biddable gets them what they need to survive, i don't see why it can't be a measure of intelligence. there are things with problems solving that i think people miss out on too. my dog knows that i am a source of the things he wants. when he wants outside, rather than trying to tear the door open, he comes and finds me, then runs to the door. when he is hungry, same thing. after he shoves a toy under the sofa with his paw, he will also come to me. part of that has to do with the relationship i've built with him through training, but a big part of it is his way of solving problems, IMO. i've also seen him solve these problems himself with no help from me at all (has your dog ever counter-surfed, dug out of the yard, etc) i guess what i'm saying is that intelligence and measuring it, is a lot more complicated then could be put down in a poll here... lol, if i made any sense at all



 
#20 ·
@Fawkese You make a lot of sense to me. Your examples are great examples of problem solving. Like when Wally is done pottying he wants to walk and he pokes me with his nose to let me know he's there. Sure, you could argue that's "just" a variation on a natural behavior, but he developed a new way on his own to solve the problem of "we ain't walking and I'm ready to go".

I also like your take on biddability being a method of survival/security and optimizing survival is very intelligent. :)

Then again Wally hasn't invented a way to reach the too-high counter or devised a way to get through the fence, so maybe he ain't all that after all LOL
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#21 ·
Makes a lot of sense to me too and I agree with you. :)
 
#23 ·
Intelligence is one of those topics that is avoided by many cognitive scientists. Largely because, as Crio said in her post, that intelligence is to do with people's subjective perceptions of it!

Every organism is shaped by the environment and lives in its own world, with different things in that world meaning different meaningful things to different organisms. Every organism has abilities that suffice for their needs- we can't hear as high pitched as dogs, and they can't hear as low-pitched as us, to do with what is useful for us as species and individuals.

The gobbledy-**** I am getting at here is that it is very hard to define and describe intelligence. We are so in tune with our environment in ways that are meaningful to us, it is very selfish and crude to deem an animal unintelligent because it doesn't 'match' out cognitive functions.

Cognition is not just in the brain- it encompasses the brain, body and environment, and so intelligence needs to take this into account.

Saying that, the best description or definition of intelligence I have read is something to the effect of:
How adaptable and flexible an animal's behaviour is to account for changes in its environment

Some animals need highly adaptive behaviour to account for changes in the environment and most likely need a large brain (e.g. elephants, humans etc who live for a long time) whereas other animals have a much less likely chance of experiencing great change (due to environment, life span etc.). This is the best description for me!
 
#24 ·
Saying that, the best description or definition of intelligence I have read is something to the effect of:
How adaptable and flexible an animal's behaviour is to account for changes in its environment
I like that definition.
 
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