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Dog doesn't sleep

This is a discussion on Dog doesn't sleep within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; Okie dokie then. Never mind my actual real life experience with a dog like the OP's. I didnt suggest anything using force or aversion, so ...

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Old 12-14-2017, 12:46 PM
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Okie dokie then. Never mind my actual real life experience with a dog like the OP's. I didnt suggest anything using force or aversion, so I wasnt aware I was breaking any rules here. God forbid anyone disagree with the almighty leashedforlife. @jrobinson, I wish you the best of luck with your pup and I hope you find a method that works your yall!!
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Old 12-14-2017, 01:51 PM
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Arrow It's not about experience or "it works", but methods

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sthelena View Post

Okie dokie then.
Never mind my actual real life experience with a dog like the OP's.
...
.

I didn't disagree in the least with Ur experience - only with the method U recommended to the OP.
If someone posted on this forum to recommend a prong-collar, as they'd successfully used it previously, that would also not conform to the Forum guidelines.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sthelena View Post


...
I didn't suggest anything using force or aversion, so I wasn't aware I was breaking any rules here.
...
.

"force" isn't limited to using one's fists, or dragging a frightened dog closer to something that terrifies them.
Obviously, if the dog struggles to escape repeatedly, being TRAPPED by the leash is a very unhappy experience, which, yes, is aversive.

I'm surprised U haven't seen this explanation B4, as the author, Margot Woods, is noted as the originator of this 'Sit on the Dog' exercise in multiple references around the Web; here are excerpts from her article:

QUOTE, bold added for emphasis:
________________________________________________

"The only time you would acknowledge the dog is to push it away if it tries to climb into your lap or tries to eat the leg off the chair you are sitting in or some other behavior that is equally unacceptable. When this happens, you must take whatever physical means necessary to cause the dog to stop the behavior at once & not resume it at a latter [edit: later] date.

This is an exercise in leadership & dominance. You are supposed to be the dominant one & the leader. As such, you are the one who decides where the two of you will be and for how long and it is not a voting matter. This is an exercise in patience. Something every dog must learn if it is to survive to live a comfortable life.
There are no maximum time lengths for this exercise. However, the minimum time is 30 minutes. The exercise should be practiced twice per day, every day. The dog must be wearing collar and leash when doing this exercise.

After the first couple of days, this is a very calming and soothing exercise for both parties. During the first couple of days a really determine dog will go through the most amazing series of behaviors. Not only that, they will repeat the series in the same sequence over and over. When none of the behaviors win them the leadership post they will literally throw themselves down, give a very loud humph and refuse to look at you. After this period has past it is all smooth sailing and happy tail wags.
...
...this exercise goes back more than 40 years now.
I wanted to teach group classes that ...felt like a class room... To me that meant students sitting in chairs, able to take notes ...
But what to do with the dogs? ... How could I have 15 to 20 misfit dogs... with owners sitting quietly in chairs and taking notes...?

Enter the sit on your dog exercise.
"

___________________________________


I hope that explains more-clearly why it's aversive, & an exercise in frustration for the dog, causing them to ultimately shut-down / quit protesting / stop trying to escape. Margot is careful not to list the assorted behaviors & stereotypies the dogs engage in, such as lunging away hauling the chair sideways, digging at the wall-to-wall, protest barking, whining, howling, CHEWING on the leash [great "training"! / Not], & other attemts to escape - I'm sure that having used it, U could add to the list of frustrated & / or escape attempts.

We're not in contention with our dogs for supremacy; dogs are forever dependent on humans for literally everything, including their very lives. We humans don't need to struggle for mastery; we own everything, we have the food, the ability to open the door to the outside world - we control what will happen, when it will happen, & how long it will last.
We need to teach our dogs what we want, in the context of that desired behavior, & reward them for doing it, as part of the learning process.

We don't want shut-down dogs - we want willing, happy co-operation, with dogs who do what we've taught them to do, by using motivational rewards.

On this forum, Margot's suggestion to use, "whatever physical means necessary to cause the dog to stop at once, & not resume it at a later date" would not be permissible IN TRAINING, ever - that would literally only be justified in an emergency, with either imminent serious injury, or a life-&-death risk, involved.

If i've erred in my interpretation of the Forum guidelines, i'm sure we'll hear from a moderator very soon.

- terry

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Old 12-14-2017, 02:00 PM
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@jrobinson I would suggest choosing which ever one you want. Sitting on the dog method isn't as bad as it sounds. I have never used Terry's way but if it works it works at least you have a back up just in case either way you choose :-) Good luck with your puppy :-)

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Old 12-14-2017, 05:12 PM
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Brief happy periods with treats and rewards like in the video are keeping the dog excited and anticipating constant rewards and treats. The exact opposite of teaching it to relax, settle quietly in one spot and relax enough to sleep, which is the original posters problem.
I know I can't sleep if my favorite person is constantly telling me to do something and throwing my favorite food at me lol.
I'd think the quiet and lack of constant attention and reinforcement would calm the dog more and teach him to learn to be quiet and not need constant attention and play.
My dog can be hyper and high energy and tear the place apart, chase the cats and chew up dangerous things if he doesn't get enough play and physical exercise. I take him out daily. I never consciously thought about this before but at home if he gets loud or starts chewing things or tearing around, I tell him no and quiet and take away the toys and have to hide them. I invite him up on the bed with me and tell him to lie down and stay. I'll pat him or give him a belly rub if he's good, sometimes go through all his tricks with him and give some treats and praise first. Usually he settles down pretty fast and will sleep all night and a lot of the day if I let him.
But it's rare that he's hyper at home if he gets enough play and exercise time.

Dogs get tied up and taught leash walking and to stay in fenced houses and put in crates and locked in rooms all the time, that's just life for a tame dog. It's for their safety and teaches them limits. Another thread everyone was telling one person that it wasn't cruel not to ever let her dog off the leash and now it's cruel to keep a hyper dog on a leash for a little while to try to get him to learn to relax. It's for the poor things health I'm sure dogs can get major health problems just like people from chronic sleep deprivation. Maybe this should be considered management instead of training to keep everyone happy for the dog's health.
Otherwise we can just let every dog run loose everywhere no leashes at all since now they're aversive. Let's see how loose dogs all over the world works out lol.
And let's keep this hyperexcited dog even more hyper stimulated with constantly anticipating rewards, praise and treats just for sitting and lying down. Biologically, sure that'll get it sleepy, not. The dog in the video was bouncing off its paws anticipating all the constant rewards. Happy, yep but not at all sleepy.

I think a vet checkup might be a good idea. Maybe calming meds or oils or fermones in the air.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:19 PM
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Thumbs up Don't like Leslie? - No problem! - LOTS of other trainers, all pos-R.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowmom View Post

Brief happy periods with treats & rewards, [as seen] in the video, keep the dog excited & anticipating constant rewards & treats. The exact opposite of teaching it to relax, settle quietly in one spot, & relax enough to sleep, which is the original poster's problem.
...
.

SM, we've had this same discussion previously on the Forum, re this precise video.

U also wouldn't get "settle quietly & relax enuf to sleep" by simply pinning a dog in place with the leash drawn short under yer bum, either. U get - as Margot freely admitted - repeated escape-attempts, tantrums, bizarre superstitious behaviors, & finally, a dog who surrenders utterly & shuts-down in despair. // That's not "relaxing" - it's several days to a week of high-stress frustration, followed by depression.
The dog will get over it, eventually, but U can't tell me it won't affect Ur relationship with that dog. U can lose a lot of trust with just one such wrong-headed [IMO] approach to "teaching".

In the 1st part of the video, Leslie is NOT working to "settle" him on the mat -
she's simply getting a still tail, as his rapid wag is an arousal indicator, & working on his EXPRESSION - if U read her notes, under the clip. She means it literally - she wants to see soft eyes, frequent blinks, a still tail - that is what she's building, & since as always, 'click ends the behavior', of course he's free to hop up for his tidbit. He's expected to - otherwise, how to U tell him to lie down, again?

then, having reset Snap to 'zero' by clicking & rewarding, she again cues him to lie on the mat, still his tail, & works on his facial expression - not on "lie down, & stay there".
This is simply a clear example of pos-R training to achieve BRIEF but clearly-held positions on the mat, freely offered, with no compulsion whatever - having done that, it's simplicity itself to L_e_n_g_t_h_e_n the duration of the behavior.

U don't get 30-mins of relaxed dog lying in place, quietly & contentedly, right off the bat - U build, to get that.

If U prefer, here are 2 variants -
Pam Marxsen, of Pam's Dog Academy, a fellow-USA-apdt trainer:


"Go WILD!... aaaand freeze", to teach impulse control:



Shaping Wynnie to enter her crate -

Wynne looks to be abt 10 to 11-WO; at 1:50, she has 2 forepaws in - at 2:47, she has all 4 feet in, then sits inside the crate; at 3:10, she enters with no cue, freely-offered behavior.

======================================


... or from Tab, a UK fellow-trainer:

Settle on a mat:


teach Calmness, Pt 1:

teach Calmness, Pt 2:


All of these use rewards, shaping or luring the dog's behavior, & building duration.
There's no frustration, no k9 tantrums, & no whining, barking, or escape attempts. The dogs enjoy the process; it's just as effective, it's far-more efficient, & there's no risk of installing bad associations, which we'd later have to repair.

cheers, & happy training,
- terry

.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowmom View Post
Brief happy periods with treats and rewards like in the video are keeping the dog excited and anticipating constant rewards and treats. The exact opposite of teaching it to relax, settle quietly in one spot and relax enough to sleep, which is the original posters problem.
I know I can't sleep if my favorite person is constantly telling me to do something and throwing my favorite food at me lol.
I'd think the quiet and lack of constant attention and reinforcement would calm the dog more and teach him to learn to be quiet and not need constant attention and play.
My dog can be hyper and high energy and tear the place apart, chase the cats and chew up dangerous things if he doesn't get enough play and physical exercise. I take him out daily. I never consciously thought about this before but at home if he gets loud or starts chewing things or tearing around, I tell him no and quiet and take away the toys and have to hide them. I invite him up on the bed with me and tell him to lie down and stay. I'll pat him or give him a belly rub if he's good, sometimes go through all his tricks with him and give some treats and praise first. Usually he settles down pretty fast and will sleep all night and a lot of the day if I let him.
But it's rare that he's hyper at home if he gets enough play and exercise time.

Dogs get tied up and taught leash walking and to stay in fenced houses and put in crates and locked in rooms all the time, that's just life for a tame dog. It's for their safety and teaches them limits. Another thread everyone was telling one person that it wasn't cruel not to ever let her dog off the leash and now it's cruel to keep a hyper dog on a leash for a little while to try to get him to learn to relax. It's for the poor things health I'm sure dogs can get major health problems just like people from chronic sleep deprivation. Maybe this should be considered management instead of training to keep everyone happy for the dog's health.
Otherwise we can just let every dog run loose everywhere no leashes at all since now they're aversive. Let's see how loose dogs all over the world works out lol.
And let's keep this hyperexcited dog even more hyper stimulated with constantly anticipating rewards, praise and treats just for sitting and lying down. Biologically, sure that'll get it sleepy, not. The dog in the video was bouncing off its paws anticipating all the constant rewards. Happy, yep but not at all sleepy.

I think a vet checkup might be a good idea. Maybe calming meds or oils or fermones in the air.
It's the pinning of the dog with the leash, then using whatever physical means necessary to stop the dog from protesting, that's the problem. I have no problem with someone tethering their dog to them to keep it from destroying the house, or to teach calm behavior. I have a huge problem with pinning a dog down with the leash, and then doing something like an alpha roll, scruffing the dog, pinning it till it submits, or using a e-collar, and it sounds as if that's what the woman who developed the method is advocating.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:40 PM
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Jrobinson, Shadow, my terrier mix, was hyper, very, very, hyper. The dog could go, and keep going as long as I'd let him. When he was a puppy I joked he had 2 speeds, fast and stop, no in between and that lasted up until he was around 13 years old. I could walk him a mile to the dog park, let him run and play there for 3 hours, walk him a mile back home, and he'd still be wanting to keep going. I had people tell me that I should put him on Valium, we're talking more then one person recommended that. He was 3 years old before he started to settle down a little, and I was the only one who really noticed, everyone else though he was very hyper. Add to that the fact that he was a terrier, and interested in doing what he wanted to do.

When he was a puppy he tried what your boy is doing, he'd wake up, sometimes at 4 in the morning and decide it was time to play. To say I am not a morning person is an understatement, and I was not amused with his wanting to play. Eventually what I started doing was giving him a warning to go lay down, and if he kept up causing a disturbance I got up and put him in the backyard, he could play all he wanted out there and he was not a barker. Shadows goal in life was to be inside with me so he quickly learned to keep quiet and lay down until I got out of bed.

Sometimes treats are not the answer, although capturing calm does work, sometimes you have to figure out what they want, in Shadow's case to be inside, and use that as the +R, -P.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:16 PM
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Not all dogs shut down and are traumatized for weeks just because they're tied or held on a leash to manage a situation and told to lie down and stay.
When my current dog went through his teenage punk phase of jumping into every fight or scuffle he saw and attacking every unneutered male mountain dog and Newfoundland twice his size he met, I'd pull him away put his harness and leash on and go sit on a bench with him and tell him to lie down and stay. I'd wait for the adrenaline rush to settle and not interact with him much to let him calm down.
I also taught him a lot of his tricks at the same time and he anticipates tricks all the time so will just start doing everything he knows. When he's lying down he normally starts rolling over again and again. Not alpha rolls at all although it probably looks that way.
He's still defiant and stubborn and sleeps on the bed and takes off and steals the warm down cover, and eats everything off the floor, and doesn't act at all traumatized.
I'm not shocking him, or hitting him or doing anything cruel, just letting him know he can't run off when I tell him to do something.
There's a Newfoundland he hates and he used to go after him multiple times. I tried all kinds of positive reinforcement, nothing worked but keeping him leashed while the dog was free and then calling him every time he started to focus on the dog and giving him treats and praise for leaving the dog and coming to me. So for him it worked and he learned to decompress and calm from all the adrenaline. Didn't harm him but helped. People who've known him since I got him keep telling me how calm and happy he seems now, and how much more well behaved and relaxed than he used to be.
And he trusts me he's stealing my down comforter and begging for belly rubs as I type lol.
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:39 PM
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Question Did U read the article?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowmom View Post

Not all dogs shut down and are traumatized for weeks just because they're tied or held on a leash to manage a situation and told to lie down and stay.
...
.

SM,
please read Margot's article, & see *exactly* what she says, & Does Not say, about what's to be done?

Wheres my sanity: Sit on the Dog, aka: The long down

She coyly leaves it to the reader's choice, what sort or how intense the "whatever physical means necessary" might be.

I'm not just whinging about a dog "being told to lie down & stay". // For a genuinely hyper dog, demanding that they STAY PUT for 30-mins with zero to do, & nowhere to do it, is a form of mild torture.
If U want a dog to behave, they need 2 things: Something To Do, & Somewhere To Do It -- A sterilized bone to gnaw, & a mat to lie on... a frozen Kong to de-stuff, & a crate to do it in; or some variant.

Parking yer butt on the leash & utterly ignoring a bored-out-of-their-brain dog who has zero coping skills is ridiculous -
U've got to know, before U even begin, that it's only going to frustrate the dog & ESCALATE the behavior - right?
... U would acknowledge that, i think?
Plus, she clearly states each session is at LEAST 30-mins, & there are at least TWO, every day - an hour each day, trapped, with nothing to do.

U aren't making it better by making it worse.
IMO & IME,
- terry

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Old 12-14-2017, 09:48 PM
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So you teach the dogs learned helplessness, I cannot get out of the situation, I might as well lay down and bear with it. What happens when the leash and collar are off? Does the dog default to the side of the chair and lay down, or does it resume running around like a lunatic? To me the dog does not learn that being calm brings about good things, it's not learned that if I'm calm I get attention, it's not learned to simply relax. What it's learned is that when I have a leash and collar on, and my owner sits on a chair, I may as well lay down because that's all I'm allowed to do. It's not a bad exercise to teach if you are training a service dog, or if your goal is to take your dog to places like outdoor cafes, coffee shops, or dog friendly bars, but if your goal is to teach calm behavior in the house, and that the dog needs to learn to settle, I really don't see it as helping.
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