Dog Barking and Growling (and Biting) - Page 2

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Dog Barking and Growling (and Biting)

This is a discussion on Dog Barking and Growling (and Biting) within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; I'm wondering if the woman had her back to him (was walking away) when he decided to lunge and bite? I'm also wondering if the ...

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Old 11-22-2017, 10:52 AM
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I'm wondering if the woman had her back to him (was walking away) when he decided to lunge and bite?

I'm also wondering if the "please pet me" behavior is really being submissive and he is actually uncomfortable in those situations.

I have a fearful/anxious/reactive dog who *thankfully* has good bite inhibition and is managed well, and also has a lot of "warning" before the sh*t hits the fan, so to speak. However, I've learned it's not uncommon for fearful dogs to up the ante and make their move when they feel it is safe to do so.

For example, my dog is afraid of strangers. If he is outside and someone shows up, he might bark, but ultimately will run and hide. If he is INSIDE and someone shows up outside, he puts on a much more intimidating display - because he is safe from the scary thing and therefore can express himself a bit more freely.

My advice would be to get a positive reinforcement behaviorist involved that can show you how to better read your dog and his signals - especially the subtle ones - and can help you to teach him to feel more safe in scary situations while keeping everyone else safe at the same time. You're probably looking at a lot of counter-conditioning, and probably something like "Look at That" or "Behavioral Adjustment Training" or whatever is offered in your area. Definitely stay far away from anyone recommending choke chains, prongs, shock collars, leash corrections, etc. as they will just make your dog worse.
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Old 11-22-2017, 11:50 AM
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I initially thought that the comments had been posted in the wrong thread as they didn't seem to bear any relevance to the thread or the real difficulty suffered by @engine987.

The poster also included his own advert and a link to his website. Following the link to the poster's website, the exact same wording appears under a blog entry dated 13th Jan 2017 under the heading "How to stop a dog barking at night? Neighbours dog barking?".

I suppose I commented the way I did because I find it irritating when a poster simply makes a "contribution" aimed at boosting their own income and presence with scant regard for the genuine problem.
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Old 11-22-2017, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Ptolemy82 View Post

I find it irritating when a poster simply makes a "contribution"...... with scant regard for the genuine problem.
With that I agree, the post was not germane to the OP's situation just like this one.

A new thread discussing whether dogs are pack animals or not, might be an interesting one.
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:33 PM
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To respond to Terry or leashed for life's comment a little way back that my last dog was only able to bite through some cheap dangerous muzzle and I and the vets didn't know what we were doing, nope wrong on all counts. It was a good quality basket muzzle he could breathe just fine. He could also get through a sleeve muzzle he was very strong and some vets and techs out it on too loose.

He had a lifetime fear of vets from me stupidly taking him to the vet for nail trims and allowing them to take him to the back and do them which completely traumatized him. Half his nails were black and his nails were very thick so when I tried to do them myself I accidentally quicked him which didn't help his fear issues. He used to be great for the vet but over time associated the vet with the trims and became fearful and would try to run away. If cornered he got very aggressive. This was completely my fault for not taking him elsewhere and letting the vet staff scare him.
I brought him in just to say hi and get treats many times he was friendly until someone took out a needle or stethoscope or muzzle then he'd snap.

As he had to have two surgeries to put his back acl ligaments in his back knees back together at ages 7 and 9 he wasn't exactly a model patient but the vet hospital was better with him than the regular vet. By the time he was 11 and had degenerative myelopathy those five months of trying to keep him walking and save his life were so heartbreaking I was bringing home in weekly and didn't care if he bit or hurt me just to know he was feeling feisty. He never hurt me or left a mark on me. He also got attacked and seriously hurt by another large dog in that time just when he was doing well.
But when he felt well or sick and healthy enough to be cranky he could bite through a basket muzzle when cornered or just as I was fastening it. No one else could get close enough to put one on while he was conscious, and no one could get a needle into him, poor thing was absolutely terrified and would whimper and try to run. His first response was always flight and he'd only bite when cornered by several people. Because of stupid nail trims, which I tried to avoid doing but then his paws got infected so I had to do as he got older and less mobile. It was a horrible situation. Treats, clickers, music, grinders nothing could distract him or convince him that we weren't going to cut off his paws in almost twelve years. Ripoff vet wanted over $100 to sedate him each time.

New dog goes to pet store grooming and I hide and watch where the dog can't see me. Last time the girl was rough with him and not coddling like I told her to be because he gets anxious too. I probably have PTSD from last dog and overreacted but I flipped out politely and complained to the manager and on the evaluation and said he's anxious and I don't ever want him manhandled. They gave me a free coupon. I don't get why they won't let owners be there. They say liability it's more liability if the dog bites them. Now his nails are long but I don't want to go back to either per place since they've both been rough with him. His nails are all black and the quicks are apparently down to the ends because his first owner never trimmed them so tough to do. Groomers always want to use the grinders but the one time one tried was the only time he tried to bite, the noise or the feel scared him. He's afraid of dryers and vacuums and some noises.
Anyway back to the thread.
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Old 11-22-2017, 02:36 PM
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Oops sorry I just did the same thing. Although my irrelevant comment was about biting at least, and in response to a comment that I was using a dangerous muzzle which I wouldn't do.
But sorry to divert or annoy anyone!
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:54 PM
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Question Yikes - he bit THRU a basket-muzzle?! - How?!

Originally Posted by Shadowmom View Post

To respond to Terry's... comment a little way back that my last dog was only able to bite through some cheap dangerous muzzle and I and the vets didn't know what we were doing, nope wrong on all counts.
It was a good quality basket muzzle, he could breathe just fine.

He could also get through a sleeve muzzle -- he was very strong and some vets and techs [put] it on too loose.


Thanks for clearing it up, I'm very glad to know he was actually wearing a proper box-muzzle, at the time.

I've seen so many vets use those adorable fabric tube-muzzles [in floral prints or patterned with rubber-duckies, as if the decor would calm the dog or make good vibrations!... ye gods].
It's been done so many times, & in so many places, i'm ready to go ballistic ---the next time i see a vet pull out a groomer's muzzle in a charming cute print, to be put on a terrified or angry dog, I may slap her or him with it, B4 they can get it on the dog.

One thing I don't understand, tho, @Shadowmom -
how he could bite thru a properly-fitted basket muzzle of the correct size for his face? -
I'm not trying to be difficult, but the basket should project about 1.5 to 2-inches past the dog's nose-leather & jaw, & the sides shouldn't touch the dog's face.
How did he get teeth thru the basket, & where? On the side, with pre-molars or the canine tooth?

If i ever meet a dog who CAN, indeed, bite THRU a basket-muzzle, i want to know how i can prevent it - if possible.
Hence my question - i really like having 10 fingers, all of them functional, & all my other body-parts intact. I'd like to avoid severe damage via a dog-bite, if i can.

I have a 2nd Q: what's a 'sleeve muzzle'? --
is that the same as the groomers' AKA tube type, with an open end that rather resembles the "cuff" of a sleeve?

If anyone else can offer tips to prevent 'extreme dogs' from biting thru a correctly-sized & properly-fitted box-muzzle, please speak up. That's a new phenomenon to me, & forewarned is forearmed.
Thanks in advance,
- terry

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Old 11-22-2017, 10:10 PM
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I don't know I thought they were called sleeve muzzles the tight tube ones that keep their mouths shut and restrict their breathing that you see at vets and hospitals all the time.
He never did serious damage to anyone in any bites. He wasn't vicious as I've said and he really loved people. Once he was free and not scared out of his mind he'd usually lick the same techs and vets he was biting and trying to apologize and be friends again. Although he really didn't like some vets like his neurologist and would growl at them. The worst damage he ever did when some vets like the neurologist didn't listen to his growls and snaps and me saying please get a muzzle while holding on to him for dear life was break the skin. No stitches just a scrape. Only dog he hurt when I patted it he left a puncture wound in the ear. He got far worse hurt by the dog that attacked him and though it looked like he tried to fight back before he tried to get away he didn't hurt the other dog at all.
He looked quite scary lunging and snapping and barking and growling but he'd also yelp and whimper and shake and cower and was terrified in a blind panic. He'd do anything then.
I'm not positive the basket muzzle fit perfectly none of the stores carried them so I had to guess at size and order online quickly when he suddenly tore his first acl and was three legged lame and needed surgery
But he was very fast, strong and smart. He'd see the muzzle and run. No one else would go near him unmuzzled so I had to hold all 80 pounds of him and get it on while he squirmed, growled, howled, whimpered, barked, fought, cuffed with both his front paws and nails which no one could trim and scampered and dug in with his back legs and usually wouldn't bite me but anyone else. The second before it was fastened he'd really go berserk and I have a very bad knee that dislocates easily. If the muzzle was too loose he'd take it off or half off and flip out so you couldn't get near him too even take it off. His leg was hurt so even touching the bandage he'd snap at you. He'd also paw frantically non-stop at the muzzle until he got it at least half off. But with it on even a bite he wouldn't break the skin.
Usually the muzzles would last for a very short procedure or until they could get him to the back with many people to restrain him or until they could give him a shot to sedate him pretty heavily. Keep in mind he grew very notorious very quickly so between his painful issues and his reputation I had a pharmacy at home of medications to keep him calm and sleepy so he wouldn't chew up his surgery scars, which he did. I also had lots of meds to give him before appointments which should have sedated him fairly heavily but adrenaline kicked in every time.
But between pawing frantically with his front paws he could take most muzzles half off pretty easily unless they were on pretty tight. And no one wanted to get close to his front end to hold his paws down.
It's amazing how careless many vet staff are about the fit. If an owner is telling you the dog needs a muzzle, trust them. I hate muzzling and restraining my dog but I really know, not think but know, it's necessary to protect people. Luckily he didn't really want to hurt people, just get away and not have the muzzle on. He took off gentle leads and head collars too and chewed them up in seconds he hated anything on his face. I do remember one time we were in the exam room and he had the basket muzzle on and a tech came to get him and she went to touch his sore leg and he snapped at her so she left to get more people cause he wouldn't leave me. I think I stupidly tried to remove some loose tape which I'm sure hurt his skin and since he was already stressed he snapped at my hand that hurt him. Muzzle was on and fastened correctly but I still had a little red mark and it stung for a second, not a real bite probably more a bruise from the bumping. That was probably the most aggressive he ever got with me in almost twelve years together but i stupidly hurt him in a very high stress situation without thinking so it was my fault.
He definitely forgave me a lot.
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