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Cesar Millan?

This is a discussion on Cesar Millan? within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; Originally Posted by pawzaddict Oh I took it as putting the dog in its place.... like when he does the "dog nipping" to show dominance ...

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Old 06-20-2009, 10:50 AM
  #21
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Oh I took it as putting the dog in its place.... like when he does the "dog nipping" to show dominance I use that on my big boy when he gets over excited and it gets his attention. But honestly whether I do that or just get super happy to get his attention it will never cure him...only gets his focus on me lol. Since hearing your advice on being happy I have decided to do that...less headache.

lol... If you do the nip and follow it with an instruction "hey do this instead" its actually no longer a correction (as long as you're not doing it really hard) it becomes a redirection..which is actually a great tool!

Ceaser is actually doing this some of the time...but there are times when the dog is over threshold that he escalates it to the point where he's hurting the dog so then its a correction.

I'll occasionally tap my dogs or touch them to get their attention which I then follow with what I want... i see no issues doing that



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Old 06-20-2009, 01:04 PM
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lol... If you do the nip and follow it with an instruction "hey do this instead" its actually no longer a correction (as long as you're not doing it really hard) it becomes a redirection..which is actually a great tool!

Ceaser is actually doing this some of the time...but there are times when the dog is over threshold that he escalates it to the point where he's hurting the dog so then its a correction.

I'll occasionally tap my dogs or touch them to get their attention which I then follow with what I want... i see no issues doing that
Yea there was no redirecting before just nipping. I am having a positive reaction from him when I make him sit and shake (for some reason he loves this) so thank you so much for your advice. I will actually "nip" at him (i dont do it rough at all, just a simple touch on the neck or butt) and redirect him in the same way now. Thanks!
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Old 06-20-2009, 09:07 PM
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I have mixed feelings about him myself. I think some of his techniques are pretty good, but sometimes i think all he's doing is terrorizing the poor things. I also question how successful he REALLY is. It's easy for a stranger to come in and scare a dog into behaving long enough to make a t.v. show. What happens after the camera crew goes home and the dog is back in his normal environment? On the other hand, i applaud Caesar's basic premise that dogs require exercise, discipline and affection. So, i'm not sure where i stand. I make fun of Caesar and i criticize him, but then find myself using his ideas.
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Old 06-21-2009, 12:26 PM
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our chihuahua uses pretty much the same techniques on our bull-breed cross as cesar does. the bull-breed worships him.
i saw the cat episode. no shocking at all.
the shock episode was the australian sheep dog and it was in an accute situation, it had already been run over twice. he shocked it about 2 times on a medium level. and it learned the correct behaviour. game over, no evidence of trauma.
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:34 PM
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our chihuahua uses pretty much the same techniques on our bull-breed cross as cesar does. the bull-breed worships him.
i saw the cat episode. no shocking at all.
the shock episode was the australian sheep dog and it was in an accute situation, it had already been run over twice. he shocked it about 2 times on a medium level. and it learned the correct behaviour. game over, no evidence of trauma.
though while i agree with the use of the e collar in that episode (it was an australian cattle dog btw) the premise of corrections doesn't teach correct behavior.

The dog learned "ow it hurts when I do that, so i should stop".

Dogs are immoral, meaning they don't have a concept of right and wrong, only safe and dangerous.It just happens that what he chose to do next is what they wanted. He could have chosen to bark at the tractor, or stand in front of it. He could have atacked the camera guy, he had lots of options and som'times dogs take those options instead of doing what we want.

The correction doesn't tell the dog what to do. But what NOT to do. Which is why they aren't great for every. little. thing.



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Old 06-21-2009, 02:04 PM
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The correction doesn't tell the dog what to do. But what NOT to do. Which is why they aren't great for every. little. thing.
I agree, and I think Ceaser uses them a bit too much.
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:28 PM
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I'll occasionally tap my dogs or touch them to get their attention which I then follow with what I want... i see no issues doing that
I do that aswell. I don't mind some stuff that Ceasar does, for example, the whole pack thing. I wouldn't use his methods though. Can't the use of aversives and punishment cause aggression? I remember doing something about that in my recent exams.

There was one episode that I watched where he got a young kid to yank a beagle (I think) off a sofa with a choke chain O.O That put me off him.
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Old 06-26-2009, 03:52 PM
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Hey all, I am not claiming to be an expert at training and behavior, but I have bit of experience traing all sorts of animals from primates to bears and sea lions. My family always had dogs when I was a kid. I am sort of re-learning some techniques and stuff but I can tell you for sure that if you tried to use Ceasar's philosophy/method of trying to mimic the animals behavior to train a 1200lb sea lion, you would end up seriously injured, at the very least. I have been learning about training (and breaking myself of bad training habits) and what stands out to me the most is that if you do something consistently , your dog will react consistently. This doesn't make the method good or bad. What makes it good or bad, in my limited opinion, is if it is reliable in multiple situations and safe for the animal and the handler/trainer. Positive training methods take patience and creativity, but work on all different species and in most situations. I feel that Caesar's approach is flashy for tv, but a very bad example for people at home to try. If you want to watch a trainer on tv, try Victoria Stillwell, she is an advocate of positive training (and has a much better understanding of her methods and why they work and what may be causing your dog to behave the way it does) or try the bestfriends.com, they use a positive relationship based approach.



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Old 06-27-2009, 07:41 AM
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No Respect For This Man!

Very simply, I do not think that Caesar Milan is good for dogs. (period) He has a sensationalist type of show, that makes for good television.

His methods are generally not the way most respectable trainers will train dogs.

His methods are an antiquated methodology that uses Positive Punishment and Negative Reinforcement. These methods train by creating fear of being punished. Today's modern methodology uses Positive Reinforcement which rewards a good behavior and creates a closer bond between dog and owner.

There was an article by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior basically saying that what Caesar Milan does and shows is not a good message to be showing to the public.

There was an excellent segment on the Tracie Hotchner "Dog Talk" radio show that you can listen to online. It is definitely worth listening to.

The website is: Tracie Hotchner - Dog Talk the Radio Show

The link for the program which aired Feb. 28, 2009 is: http://www.traciehotchner.com/dt/pod...k_02_28_09.mp3

Unless he has changed recently, I have never seen Milan ever rewarding or praising a dog for doing something good. His whole premise seems to revolve around punishment.

Sorry folks. I have no respect for this man at all, other than being good at marketing himself.
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:38 PM
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My family always had dogs when I was a kid. I am sort of re-learning some techniques and stuff but I can tell you for sure that if you tried to use Ceasar's philosophy/method of trying to mimic the animals behavior to train a 1200lb sea lion, you would end up seriously injured, at the very least. .

This is what positive trainers have been screaming from the rafters for a while now. It never ceases to amaze me that these correction based trainers have not tried to train other species.. If they tried to train a cat or a bird im sure they would be humbled quite quickly.






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