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Bought a "Trained" Doberman Pinscher

This is a discussion on Bought a "Trained" Doberman Pinscher within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; Originally Posted by marcie It is for horse boarding! WTF!?! I don't get why this person is trolling me and trying to get this dog. ...

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Old 05-25-2018, 07:35 PM
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It is for horse boarding! WTF!?! I don't get why this person is trolling me and trying to get this dog.

Imagine that!!! Your husband called the correct number and believe it or not Jenni Harris is involved with horses, dogs and probably much more than that. A simple Google search of the phone number will enlighten you.


Did you husband actually talk to Jenni? I'm guessing not.
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Old 05-26-2018, 07:17 AM
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Based on that nasty trollish post no way would I ever ever trust one of my horses boarded with that moron. I've had way too many bad boarding experiences from not doing enough research in over 25 years of boarding multiple horses, and one malicious incompetent idiot nearly killed my ancient mare last summer by completely ignoring all the terms we'd agreed to, then had the nerve to call local animal control and say that I was starving the horse! On a full board agreement where I paid her to feed and emailed specific feed instructions before I moved there? And had taken many pictures of the disgusting black murky water they only had to drink which wasn't even drinkable?
The surgery for Jacob sound like a good hope if successful and he gets through the risks. I don't want to be negative but please strongly advise the rescue to test for degenerative myelopathy first. My last dog only lived five months with this horrible disease before he died (I didn't get the chance to euthanize him). So in my personal opinion it's not worth it to put any dog through a bigger risk and potentially traumatic procedure to give him two more years of life when another equally devastating genetic disease could kill him in just a few months.
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Old 05-26-2018, 12:21 PM
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Imagine that!!! Your husband called the correct number and believe it or not Jenni Harris is involved with horses, dogs and probably much more than that. A simple Google search of the phone number will enlighten you.


Did you husband actually talk to Jenni? I'm guessing not.
I did a google search. Did you even bother to click on the link I provided in my post where I said that the number traced back to here Hidden Bridge Farms? The page the link leads to ONLY mentions horses, that's all, it does not mention any ties to PDS, it does not mention anything about training, boarding, or fostering dogs. So you're expecting someone to turn over a critically ill, highly aggressive, dog to someone who may or may not foster for PDS, and the dog may, or may not, have come form PDS since the OP never specified where she got the dog from.

I don't trust random people on the internet, call me paranoid, over cautious, etc., but I just don't. It's too easy for someone to lie.
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Old 05-26-2018, 01:57 PM
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I don't trust random people on the internet, call me paranoid, over cautious, etc., but I just don't. It's too easy for someone to lie.

No disagreement there.


I just took a different route than you and the horse business which you mentioned was already described in the bio at PDS's web site. As I mentioned earlier she has a fairly extensive background in more than just dogs.


Protection Dog Sales Staff, Jeff Edington, Aric Harris, Jenni Hebel, Richard Klline and the rest of the Protection Dog Sales Staff
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Old 05-27-2018, 01:11 AM
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Guys...don't trust PDS. That is all I'm going to say about it.


When my husband called the number, a man answered, but didn't give his name. He says they just answered with their business name and asked how they could help him. My husband said he called the wrong number and hung up.



Jakob is doing well. He is back at home with his foster mom. They have an experienced trainer that is CCPDT, ADPT and is a graduate of the Victoria Stillwell Academy. She has gotten him to be able to accept a flat collar (no choke, prong, pinch, shock, etc) and is also going out on a leash.



We have decided to go ahead and give them the money to do the heart procedure. It's very costly, but knowing that it could give him his life back is what matters most.



The rescue has asked us if we would be interested in adopting one of their child-friendly Doberman Pinschers who has been through some training. His name is Duke and he is incredibly gorgeous! We are going to go meet him tomorrow. According to them, he is dog, cat, rabbit, bird and child friendly! His foster mom has a toddler and he lets her sleep on him! So, this dog sounds like he might be a great fit for us.



I honestly wish we could have kept Jakob. But, he was just too abused and aggressive for our family. I'm sure the health problems have something to do with his temperament, but I doubt a dog that wasn't abused would hide and shake from a prong collar! Also, the time I brought out the choke chain he ran straight into the kitchen cabinets and messed himself. I'm sorry, but you can't tell me that dog hasn't been abused.



They also told us about a female Doberman Pinscher they have in rescue named Coke and that she is great with kids and cats, but not other dogs.
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Old 05-27-2018, 10:20 AM
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I came in late to this thread and only waded through parts of it......it made me sick to just read what I did.

I’ve worked with PPDs, police dogs and protection dog sports for a long time. In the early days of my personal training we talked about choosing dogs for the work. It was said that of the 5% of a given breed that shows potential for protection work of any kind only 5% of those were capable of true Personal protection work. The wash out rate obviously is extremely high. Even trainers with selective breeding programs have very high washout rates. Many just sell these dogs as pets often with neuter and or non breed clauses, and often at bargain prices.

Faults range from health,lack of drive, shyness, fearfulness, poor structure, and general reactivity as well as others. As I continued training and working with a range of dogs from pups to top of the line trained dogs I began to see these things much more clearly. Indeed I was questioned by the trainer on what I saw and critiqued on my comments. Eventually I got to and participate on dog candidate selection. This was by another trainer who trained mostly police working dogs. I got to see him select a fresh shipment of European dogs. He said they rarely sent high quality dogs, mostly their “junk dogs” to “us stupid Americans” as he noted. The test was in a large pole building with a dirt floor. These dogs had had previously two weeks of relaxing kennel and socialization to get used to him. One by one the we’re brought into the barn. He first threw a tennis ball down to the far end then released the dog. If the dog ran fast and picked it up and either ran around or brought it back, it passed the first test. The second test he simply tossed a puppy training sleeve out. With no command or encouragement the dog was released. If the dog ran quickly to it and pranced around sort of “ showing off” with it, he said the dog would get further training and was a temporary “keeper”. Dogs that failed either test were sent back or sold for his cost. Of the six he demoed to us he kept one. Then he told, not asked, me to bring in my dog. As I recall he had just passed his SCH II trial. So I did. He had me step out and watch through the office window. My dog did the ball quickly and ran around shaking the sleeve proudly then the trainer grabbed it and pulled hard with very strong threatening noises. My dog vigorously opposed with a deep grip until the trainer released it. He said my dog had solid drives and was in control of himself. He needed much more difficult and demanding work but carefully done to prevent excessive fight as he became more skillful. It turned out exactly as he said. My friend’s dog barely passed the initial test and the trainer said that he would probably wash out later on. He suggested we train him as an object/area search dog and as a dog to demo and to take on public K 9 awareness programs. He turned out to be a wonderful family dog with just enough “ guard” abilitity to scare off intruders. We got to spend a whole week of 10-12 hours days working dogs with this guy and learned a lot. It’s hard to describe the intensity of the dog training and the personal training he gave us.
We considered money well spent.

When he completed a dog’s training he required a week of personal training of the handler with the dog thus creating the foundation of a team.

So;

What surprises me here is that the OP seems to have no introduction as to her dog’s training or capability. Then to read about the total lack of working ability of the dog. I’d be highly suspicious of this trainer. If I was to go back in time to my first week of real hard dog training (I’d be a rank beginner trainer) and asked to evaluate this dog based on his first week of training too, I say take this dog home and treat him nicely. Give him a comfy bed, let him on the couch and bed and give him a good life. Then get another dog for the work. Compared to what my trainer would have said ,this is very gentle.

It sounds like this dog was badly mistreated, maybe forced to enter into protection training that he was not genetically equipped to do, then had a big ticket price tag hung on him. I really feel sorry for the OP as well as the dog. I can even begin to imagine the disappointment.

Most assuredly I’d keep this dog away from the kids. I’m going to repeat this because I don’t want to read about an accident.

Keep this dog away from the kids.

There are already plenty of recommendations posted so I’ll not get into that.

PPDs are not for everyone just as guns and weapons are not for everyone.

For the OP. This problem asside. Please, please if you really want a PPD go to several
Trainers and talk to them. Keep notes. Ask if they will help and train you to handle the dog. Find out all you can. Check with your local law enforcement about PPD. And above all check with your insurance agent/company. Then I’d suggest you attend a Concealed and Carry gun permit class. Not that you want to carry a firearm but so you will learn about the laws concerning your personal and property protection.

I know this is very long winded but I hear PPD things frequently and most people don’t really understand what goes into this.

Byron

Last edited by Bentwings; 05-27-2018 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 05-28-2018, 01:17 AM
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Bentwings,

That was a most informative post. Thanks for sharing your expertise and experiences. And, your warning about keeping the dog away from children is very important.

Marcie, you made the right decision to find a rescue group who could take the dog.
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Old 05-30-2018, 05:10 PM
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As an owner of an extremely fearful dog that we rescued three years ago, I personally know what it is like to work with a dog like this and so it made me want to know more about the breeder/trainers of Jakob.

So apparently according to PDS's website, the Jen who emailed you is this person here who also owns Hidden Bridge Farm Equine training and boarding facility. Read this: Make sure to read last few lines....

Protection Dog Sales Staff, Jeff Edington, Aric Harris, Jenni Hebel, Richard Klline and the rest of the Protection Dog Sales Staff

Protection Dog Sales Staff
Jenni Harris
Jenni.jpg

Jenni Harris
Co-Owner, Logistics Master, Travel and Delivery Genius.. Jenni's extensive background in law-enforcement and emergency services brings an added flavor and experience to the Prufenpuden (PDS) Brand. She oversee's our special orders department and keeps our breeding program on track. Jenni was the driving force, creator and developer of Prufenpuden Farms, our exclusive Stay & Train destination.

She is always available to answer your questions and will happily take the time to explain our procedures and policies to you. You will find that she is well educated, fun and amiable, and is always an advocate for the animals and customer service drives her every decision.

Her resume is long and varied. 1994 member/training coordinator of K9 search and rescue team in Louisville and Southern Indiana. 1995/1996 K9 search and rescue coordinator for Louisville & Jefferson county Disaster and Emergency Services. 2006 attended 10 week detection dog trainer school at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, TX. 2006-2009 K9 police officer, handled explosives detection K9 for TSA at the Louisville International Airport. 1999-2003 Police officer for Oldham County Police Department. 1993-current professionally certified firefighter. 1994-current Kentucky Certified Emergency Medical Technician. 2003-2008 owner Hidden Bridge Farm Equine training and boarding facility. She has ridden and shown many horses in the hunters and jumpers.

Unsure if this info is helpful at all, but wanted to pass it along. Maybe it can clarify things.

Prayers to you and Jakob. I wish you all the very best. You are a kind, amazing animal loving soul. The world needs more compassionate people like you to help our so deserving dogs who cannot speak for themselves. Dogs cannot report abuse, nor stop the cycle, but humans can.
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Old 06-02-2018, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Bentwings View Post
I came in late to this thread and only waded through parts of it......it made me sick to just read what I did.

I’ve worked with PPDs, police dogs and protection dog sports for a long time. In the early days of my personal training we talked about choosing dogs for the work. It was said that of the 5% of a given breed that shows potential for protection work of any kind only 5% of those were capable of true Personal protection work. The wash out rate obviously is extremely high. Even trainers with selective breeding programs have very high washout rates. Many just sell these dogs as pets often with neuter and or non breed clauses, and often at bargain prices.

Faults range from health,lack of drive, shyness, fearfulness, poor structure, and general reactivity as well as others. As I continued training and working with a range of dogs from pups to top of the line trained dogs I began to see these things much more clearly. Indeed I was questioned by the trainer on what I saw and critiqued on my comments. Eventually I got to and participate on dog candidate selection. This was by another trainer who trained mostly police working dogs. I got to see him select a fresh shipment of European dogs. He said they rarely sent high quality dogs, mostly their “junk dogs” to “us stupid Americans” as he noted. The test was in a large pole building with a dirt floor. These dogs had had previously two weeks of relaxing kennel and socialization to get used to him. One by one the we’re brought into the barn. He first threw a tennis ball down to the far end then released the dog. If the dog ran fast and picked it up and either ran around or brought it back, it passed the first test. The second test he simply tossed a puppy training sleeve out. With no command or encouragement the dog was released. If the dog ran quickly to it and pranced around sort of “ showing off” with it, he said the dog would get further training and was a temporary “keeper”. Dogs that failed either test were sent back or sold for his cost. Of the six he demoed to us he kept one. Then he told, not asked, me to bring in my dog. As I recall he had just passed his SCH II trial. So I did. He had me step out and watch through the office window. My dog did the ball quickly and ran around shaking the sleeve proudly then the trainer grabbed it and pulled hard with very strong threatening noises. My dog vigorously opposed with a deep grip until the trainer released it. He said my dog had solid drives and was in control of himself. He needed much more difficult and demanding work but carefully done to prevent excessive fight as he became more skillful. It turned out exactly as he said. My friend’s dog barely passed the initial test and the trainer said that he would probably wash out later on. He suggested we train him as an object/area search dog and as a dog to demo and to take on public K 9 awareness programs. He turned out to be a wonderful family dog with just enough “ guard” abilitity to scare off intruders. We got to spend a whole week of 10-12 hours days working dogs with this guy and learned a lot. It’s hard to describe the intensity of the dog training and the personal training he gave us.
We considered money well spent.

When he completed a dog’s training he required a week of personal training of the handler with the dog thus creating the foundation of a team.

So;

What surprises me here is that the OP seems to have no introduction as to her dog’s training or capability. Then to read about the total lack of working ability of the dog. I’d be highly suspicious of this trainer. If I was to go back in time to my first week of real hard dog training (I’d be a rank beginner trainer) and asked to evaluate this dog based on his first week of training too, I say take this dog home and treat him nicely. Give him a comfy bed, let him on the couch and bed and give him a good life. Then get another dog for the work. Compared to what my trainer would have said ,this is very gentle.

It sounds like this dog was badly mistreated, maybe forced to enter into protection training that he was not genetically equipped to do, then had a big ticket price tag hung on him. I really feel sorry for the OP as well as the dog. I can even begin to imagine the disappointment.

Most assuredly I’d keep this dog away from the kids. I’m going to repeat this because I don’t want to read about an accident.

Keep this dog away from the kids.

There are already plenty of recommendations posted so I’ll not get into that.

PPDs are not for everyone just as guns and weapons are not for everyone.

For the OP. This problem asside. Please, please if you really want a PPD go to several
Trainers and talk to them. Keep notes. Ask if they will help and train you to handle the dog. Find out all you can. Check with your local law enforcement about PPD. And above all check with your insurance agent/company. Then I’d suggest you attend a Concealed and Carry gun permit class. Not that you want to carry a firearm but so you will learn about the laws concerning your personal and property protection.

I know this is very long winded but I hear PPD things frequently and most people don’t really understand what goes into this.

Byron

Bentwings, most excellent post! Thank you for taking your time to write it and share your knowledge and real life experience with us! There is so much (dangerous) BS out there about dog training and behavior. It is SO refreshing to me to read posts like this one which is so informative. And as for being a longer post, I personally love to learn, so long is never a problem for me. Good job!
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Old 06-12-2018, 12:52 PM
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Sorry, it's been a while since I've been on. Jakob relapsed pretty bad when a different trainer tried to introduce him to a shock collar. I can't believe the rescue would allow this. I am so angry! He ended up biting the trainer and his foster mother, both needing stitches, and the rescue chose to euthanize him. Just because we've developed portable dog electrocution devices doesn't mean we have to use them.
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