Of all the brilliantly idiodic "training" for anxiety!!

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Of all the brilliantly idiodic "training" for anxiety!!

This is a discussion on Of all the brilliantly idiodic "training" for anxiety!! within the Dog Training and Behavior forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; I just watched a video ad on FB and some fool trainer is using an E-collar to "treat" anxiety. https://www.facebook.com/Home2K9/vid...6509355878502/ My response to the video. ...

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Old 10-29-2017, 02:22 PM
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Of all the brilliantly idiodic "training" for anxiety!!

I just watched a video ad on FB and some fool trainer is using an E-collar to "treat" anxiety. https://www.facebook.com/Home2K9/vid...6509355878502/

My response to the video. "So in addition to shocking the dog what are you doing to change how they feel about the trigger. Are you doing anything to make them happy about what they are upset about? To me Rudy looks like a shut down dog, a dog that has learned that he cannot react but is still plenty upset about what's going on. I do not see y'all working with him anywhere in that short clip to change how he feels about what's going on. Last I checked shocks are plenty unpleasant and I'd think that Rudy is learning he should be very worried about being in that environment because he might get shocked." I just wonder if the "trainer" is going to delete it.
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Old 10-29-2017, 05:32 PM
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Question How do i make sense of this doublespeak? - It's like new-speak in "1984"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain View Post

... my response ...

"So in addition to shocking the dog what are you doing to change how they feel about the trigger. Are you doing anything to make them happy about what they are upset about?
To me Rudy looks like a shut down dog, a dog that has learned that he cannot react but is still plenty upset about what's going on. I do not see y'all working with him anywhere in that short clip to change how he feels about what's going on.
Last I checked, shocks are plenty unpleasant, & I'd think Rudy is learning he should be very worried about being in that environment, because he might get shocked."


I just wonder if the "trainer" is going to delete it.


apparently s/he did delete it - I don't see that comment anywhere in the thread.

Some other comments require major translation to make them understandable English -
QUOTE,
Heidi Powell:
"Thanks, Cameron -
I needed this reminder on how to use the e-collar to help Kyla chill."

Home2K9 Dog Training:
"You betcha! Itís very diverse in its value."

Mo Reiten-Schutzer:
Yes! Thank you. I wasnít sure if I was being mean for asking for this out of my dog. Now I understand that keeping his mind in a 'never mind' place is best. I will implement with much more consistency. Thank you."

Home2K9 Dog Training
"Youíre most welcome! Glad it resonated."

Donna French Dannemiller:
"How does he know that the tap means he needs to calm? Rudy is really anxious in the car. Any suggestions on how I can help him to settle down? - Thanks!"

Home2K9 Dog Training:
"Donna,
he knows because we taught him, just like we taught Rudy. 😬 Because the collar has been conditioned properly, the dog learns that the tap is addressing their idea, plot, scheme, or plan, which is why the low level stops the anxious cycling & causes more relaxed / acceptance."

_________________________________________________


Notice that a shock is "a tap" - nice euphemism, there. Also, these dogs have, not just 'ideas' - which is itself arguable! - but even more Machiavellian, these dogs have "plots, schemes, & plans". Wow.

Let's just call a shock a shock. And dogs aren't planning world-domination.

- terry

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Old 10-29-2017, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leashedForLife View Post


apparently s/he did delete it - I don't see that comment anywhere in the thread.

Some other comments require major translation to make them understandable English -
QUOTE,
Heidi Powell:
"Thanks, Cameron -
I needed this reminder on how to use the e-collar to help Kyla chill."

Home2K9 Dog Training:
"You betcha! Itís very diverse in its value."

Mo Reiten-Schutzer:
Yes! Thank you. I wasnít sure if I was being mean for asking for this out of my dog. Now I understand that keeping his mind in a 'never mind' place is best. I will implement with much more consistency. Thank you."

Home2K9 Dog Training
"Youíre most welcome! Glad it resonated."

Donna French Dannemiller:
"How does he know that the tap means he needs to calm? Rudy is really anxious in the car. Any suggestions on how I can help him to settle down? - Thanks!"

Home2K9 Dog Training:
"Donna,
he knows because we taught him, just like we taught Rudy. 😬 Because the collar has been conditioned properly, the dog learns that the tap is addressing their idea, plot, scheme, or plan, which is why the low level stops the anxious cycling & causes more relaxed / acceptance."

_________________________________________________


Notice that a shock is "a tap" - nice euphemism, there. Also, these dogs have, not just 'ideas' - which is itself arguable! - but even more Machiavellian, these dogs have "plots, schemes, & plans". Wow.

Let's just call a shock a shock. And dogs aren't planning world-domination.

- terry

My post should have been under the one from Donna's so she must have deleted it. I didn't think I was rude or obnoxious in my post on the thread, I honestly was interested in knowing if the "trainer" did anything else besides shock the dog into shutting down.

If I was being rude, and not trying to start a dialog, I would have posted that shocking a scared, anxious, fearful, stressed, dog is the worst thing you can do. It's bad enough to use shock collars (let's call them what they are) on a temperamentally sound dog, but to use one on a soft dog, or one who is anxious, stressed, etc. is horrible. You are just teaching the dog that it's right to be scared because it gets zapped every time it tries to express it's state of mind. They are not teaching the dog anything but to shut down and later on down the line the poor dog will react "out of the blue" and may pay for it with their life.

My heart breaks for the fearful, anxious, dogs who's owner finds that "trainer".
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Old 10-29-2017, 07:07 PM
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Exclamation "Plotting" to be scared in the car?!



Does this trainer seriously believe that dogs "plot, plan, or scheme" to BE "anxious / fearful in the car"? - Who wants to be scared?
Who not only chooses anxiety, but "plots" to make themselves afraid? :crazy:

I dunno about U - but IMO & IME, dogs - unlike a very-small fraction of the human popn - are not masochists.
They don't enjoy pain; they aren't sadists - they don't enjoy inflicting pain, or take pleasure in their victim's pain.
They don't enjoy feeling terrified; anticipating pain or danger is not a "thrill" for dogs, they aren't adrenaline-junkies; & they prefer feeling relaxed or confident to feeling stressed, scared, or anxious.

Dogs in general are rarely neurotic, & those that are didn't "choose" to be - it's usually the result of sustained trauma, IME.

- terry

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Old 10-29-2017, 10:25 PM
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Well, if the poor Rudy isn't neurotic now, he sure will be by the time this clown is through with him.
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Old 10-31-2017, 11:40 AM
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Rain, I am of course in total agreement with you, and others about how much damage is done by using an E collar in the name of training. I think any idiot that even considers it, should wear it and inflict that pain on himself, not that it would impart any level of new wisdom in these deficient folks. I would be in favor, of somehow making them illegal to manufacture, sell or own, but that of course won't happen.
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Old 10-31-2017, 01:57 PM
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Arrow stress, DIStress, & EUstress



I muted the video & watched the 1st 1-min 25-secs; i didn't want to listen to rationalizations or comment, i want to WATCH THE DOG.
At 12-secs, as she talks to the camera & waves her fingers around to point at the dog, what does he do? -- Turns his face & gaze away, & sniffs at his lower hind-leg.
Look-away is a calming or appeasing behavior; it communicates either, "I'm not a threat", or "Please, turn it down - yer scaring me."
Sniffing is self-calming or self-comfort - it helps a dog feel better under stress, especially if the dog can't escape the stress.

I'm pretty sure the 1st zap ["tap" ] comes at 23-secs, when the dog, who's already visibly stressed, flinches all over his body & pulls his L elbow & leg in.

His initial presentation:
His commissure is a straight-line slot [vs a relaxed, open sideways-V, with tongue lolling over his incisors - as seen in a dog who's casually hanging out];
his brow is tense, with a line between his eyebrows; ears are pulled back & tight to his skull; body & limbs, tense & contracted - he's taking up as little space as he can, he's pulled everything inward to minimize himself as a target area; and his TAIL is tucked snugly into his body.
He's panting - shallow & rapid. // I'd bet his pulse & BP are elevated, & he's secreting lots of cortisol - not good for learning anything new, nor for recall if he actually learns anything; the stress floods the dog's brain, & memory is the last thing in the hierarchy of the body's concerns.
The thing his body wants most right-now is to flee - & consciously, he can't, & knows he can't.

After he's zapped, he pulls all limbs & body inward even-more tightly, his HEAD is lowered, his EARS pinch to his skull, his PUPILS enlarge - darkening his eyes, as seen from a distance - & his eyes slightly protrude from his skull.
Why do his eyes pop? - 'cuz the skin on his face just stretched taut due to greatly-increased tension, & the skin framing his eyes, particularly his eyelids, was pulled outward & away, allowing the eyeballs to be more exposed.

He lip-licks, he's drooling with distress, U see him swallow heavily at least twice; he lowers his gaze to the floor, pulls his nose down & in, nose-flicks [tongue touches nose & pulls back into mouth], lowers his head to rest on the pipe frame of the sling bed, & he's now BREATHING THRU A LETTER-SLOT:
his jaws are nearly closed, his commissure is pulled back in a grimace, & his airway is compromised -
he's pulling air into his mouth sideways thru a horizontal slot, vs panting freely with his mouth wide-open & tongue dropped to the floor, to open his soft palate as widely as possible & let him not just breathe / exchange gases, but to COOL & evaporate heat from his body.

If this "training" session went on very long, he'd be in danger of hyperthermia as his core-temp climbs -
a dog's cooling system is nowhere near as efficient as sweating thru pores, it's all down to airway & evaporative surface [throat, hard & soft palate, tongue].

It's obvious she's going to ignore stress signals & appeasement behaviors, & there's very little point in tormenting myself watching a dog be distressed even further, so i've seen as much as i'm going to watch -
unless someone has a time-stamp of something they think very important, then i'll watch that segment. // If not, i'm done. Watching misery won't help me learn how to prevent misery.
Listening to the "trainer" rationalize how it's done won't help, either.

very sad,
- terry


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Old 10-31-2017, 02:47 PM
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Wow. Ecollar for reactivity. I would think that would just get the dog more hyped up than anything. Sounds counter productive either way.....
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Old 10-31-2017, 02:52 PM
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@leashedForLife - that's assuming this trainer even knows HOW to recognize stress signals. Someone who thinks that an e-collar eliminates stress/anxiety clearly has no clue about how fear functions in dogs. Like, at all.

This clip really brings out the "Mama Bear" in me and I can tell you that, despite the fact that I am a VERY shy individual, if she so much as suggested that to me for my dog she'd get an earful. At least. Wish I could just scoop that poor pup up and take him somewhere safe.
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Old 10-31-2017, 03:07 PM
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Like anything on FB what I found extra heartbreaking was the amount of comments that not only support this but are doing it themselves. While it may seem like she is getting the reaction from the dog that she is wanting (him putting his head down and "relaxing") the body shaking leads me to believe that not only is she not helping the problem (set that dog without the ecollar and see how he reacts) but there is no mind given to what she is mentally doing to the poor dog. It's heartbreaking.
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