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my dog suddenly became blind and deaf

This is a discussion on my dog suddenly became blind and deaf within the Dog Health forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; First off, transcutaneous electrical stimulation (TENS) is not acupuncture. You should know that. Secondly, you didn't bother to mention that these "scientific" trials consisted of ...

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Old 09-09-2017, 10:10 AM
  #11
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First off, transcutaneous electrical stimulation (TENS) is not acupuncture. You should know that.

Secondly, you didn't bother to mention that these "scientific" trials consisted of very small groups, with no mention given as the selection process, randomization process, or blinding of subjects and observers.

Here's a nice analysis and references for you:
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/acupuncture/
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Old 09-09-2017, 03:58 PM
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Smile it's in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR View Post

First off, transcutaneous electrical stimulation (TENS) is not acupuncture. You should know that.

Secondly, you didn't bother to mention that these "scientific" trials consisted of very small groups, with no mention given as the selection process, randomization process, or blinding of subjects and observers.
...
Pardon me -
Yes, i do indeed know the difference betw TENS & A-P, not merely theoretically but via very-distinct personal experience:
i injured my lower-back badly at work, & was forced by my employer's insurer to use a &$#%@! TENS machine that was excruciating, as "therapy" for 90-mins every day - at work, & on days-off at home. It did nothing to "help heal" or reduce pain, & was itself very painful.
So yeah - been there, done it, got the T-shirt. Sucked.

In at least ONE study, the researchers compared TENS to acupuncture,
OR in one study, they used acupuncture points & needles and electrical stimulation via the needle, into the AP-point.
We have rolled onto a new page - i cannot see the studies from here, i am working from memory, but i'll be happy to confirm my memory as soon as i can scroll back.

And yes -
several of the studies were double-blind & they stipulated that; i think 2 were single-blind, but again, the study STIPULATES single-blind or double-blind.

I'm sorry that they didn't use hundreds of dogs - how many would U think are the minimum # that U'd find acceptable? Research is expensive, & every subject added to a trial adds more co$t.

They also state how they randomized experimental vs control, or prospective studies without a control-group. It's in there. If U insist, i'll copy / paste it, but i'd rather not spend the time.
I'm sure U can understand that.

cheers,
- terry

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Old 09-09-2017, 04:14 PM
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Smile here ya go!

BTW, only 1 of the studies is available in full-text; the other 3 are abstracts.

Study #1:
randomized / double-blind / placebo; compares AP to TENS.

study #2:
TENS vs AP, used on every subject;
subject rates degree of relief obtained, researchers test for duration.

#3:
placebo / SINGLE-blind

#4:
placebo / SINGLE-blind



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Old 09-09-2017, 05:32 PM
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Single blind studies aren't appropriate for self-reported pain studies. Double blinding is required to control for observer bias.

And these studies didn't use dogs, they used people who self-reported pain levels. Hence the need for double blinding.

Seriously, if you can come up with an experiment that demonstrates that animals are surrounded by invisible energy fields, and then demonstrate that sticking pins in various locations on animals cures illnesses by somehow interacting with these energy fields, then we can talk about the efficacy of acupuncture. All these supposed studies do is say "We did something random, and some people said they feel better."

Read some of the links I provided, both in Skeptvet and in Science Based Medicine. They'll provide the rational for how a study should be conducted, and the weaknesses found in existing experiments performed by acupuncture practitioners.
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Old 09-09-2017, 07:06 PM
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Smile yes, dear.

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Originally Posted by JohnR View Post
Single blind studies aren't appropriate for self-reported pain studies. Double blinding is required to control for observer bias.

And these studies didn't use dogs, they used people who self-reported pain levels. Hence the need for double blinding.

...
I am afraid U'll have to complain to the researchers about the flaws in their study designs - i have no input there.

I notice that U ignored the double-blind study, & also the fact that in the dual-therapy study, the RESEARCHERS - not the subjects - determined the duration of relief from pain.
??

- t

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Old 09-09-2017, 10:18 PM
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Did you bother to read any of the articles I provided?

I mean, think for a minute. You cited a flawed study, and then said I'll have to take it up with the researchers. Does that really make sense to you.

And I noticed that you don't have anything to say about the basic premise of acupuncture. Do you really believe that there are invisible energy fields that surround us, and that poking people and animals with needles causes those fields of energy to cure diseases? Because, if you don't believe that, you pretty much dismiss the whole idea that acupuncture could possibly work.

Last edited by JohnR; 09-09-2017 at 10:23 PM.
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Old 09-09-2017, 11:52 PM
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Question

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... You cited a flawed study ...
I cited 4 studies, not one - if 1 is flawed, then 3 are not?
It seemed to me that U summarily dismissed all 4.

I am not going to discuss the theory of acupuncture; i simply stated that SOME OF MY CLIENTS have stated that THEIR DOGS had good results.
We have gone a long way since then; i don't see much point in pursuing it further.

- terry


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Old 09-10-2017, 07:50 AM
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I REALIZE that SOME of YOUR clients CLAIM to HAVE had GOOD results.

So what? Some people claim that the earth is flat.

It's very telling that you are "not going to discuss the theory of acupuncture". The fact is, when you claim that a cure works, you have to be able to say how it works. We know how antibiotics, nerve blockers, NSAIDS, etc., work; based on actual observed, validated and replicated testing. If you want to claim that acupuncture is medically valid, you have to be able to point out the curative process.

You are correct that there is no point in discussing something with you when you refuse to answer direct questions or even look at references that are provided to you. I am not going to do basic research for you. I'm done.
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Old 09-12-2017, 09:48 AM
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18 years is a very old age for a dog so it could just be natural. Leaving him in the car could have nothing to do with it. I have a 16 year old Weimaraner that is blind and deaf. It's all natural. I think most of it is age. I would just let it play out. I understand loving it but making the animal suffer is going to be hard on you and him. I would do whatever your vet recommends :-)
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