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Inaccuracies, Fear Mongering, and DNM

This is a discussion on Inaccuracies, Fear Mongering, and DNM within the Dog Health forums, part of the Keeping and Caring for Dogs category; Re: vaccines and cancer, this is a complicated topic and you aren't going to get a definitive study to peruse. But there is the issue ...

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Old 12-17-2015, 10:36 AM
  #31
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Re: vaccines and cancer, this is a complicated topic and you aren't going to get a definitive study to peruse. But there is the issue of injection site sarcoma.

As for the other issues, I have provided a study that shows the mechanism for autoimmunity and vaccines. You might also want to look into "ASIA", adjuvant autoimmune/inflammatory syndrome induced by adjuvants.

If you don't understand the nuances, factors and indeed the history of the herd immunity theory, I am not about to spend time I don't have educating you, I have a life outside of the internet. At best herd immunity is vaccine specific.
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Old 12-17-2015, 10:45 AM
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Inaccuracies, Fear Mongering, and DNM

If you do not want to discuss further science, than I'll agree to disagree. Frankly you're starting to devolve to rude comments, and I think we've both made our points and are not going to change the opinion of the other.

Last edited by Aurora; 12-17-2015 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:35 PM
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Re: vaccines and cancer, this is a complicated topic and you aren't going to get a definitive study to peruse. But there is the issue of injection site sarcoma.
Vaccine associated sarcomas are specific to cats and have been pretty convincingly demonstrated to be caused by adjuvants, not vaccines. Thus the rise of non-adjuvanted vaccines in cats.
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Old 12-17-2015, 01:51 PM
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I'm not too busy with life outside of the internet to thank Aurora and Sassafras for their posts.

I'll continue to vaccinate my animals and myself.
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Old 12-17-2015, 02:07 PM
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ANNUAL vaccination against parvovirus should not take place until a dog’s existing level of protection is measured first.

This is the conclusion drawn from a German study which showed that booster vaccinations had an effect on only 17 per cent of test dogs.

And side effects were common – 37 per cent showed lethargy, suffered gastro-intestinal problems, excessive thirst, injection site swelling and pain; 20 per cent displayed lymph node disorders afterwards. Such symptoms can be indicative that the dog already has sufficient immunity.

Response to vaccination is measured in titres and after the boosters 83 per cent of the dogs showed no titre increase. An effect was seen only in dogs whose titre level initially would not have protected them and those whose bodyweight was below 10kg.

The scientists also believe that different doses should be considered for small and large breed dogs to ensure sufficient immune response but tolerable side effects.

One study dog had no detectable antibodies before or after vaccination.

Before the boosters were given, tests showed that 86 per cent of the dogs already had protective antibodies even though only 19 per cent of them had been vaccinated according to current guidelines. And antibodies were present in 84 per cent of dogs with improper vaccination.

Most dogs maintain antibody levels for years; adult dogs whose immune systems are working properly have a high level of protection, so checking dogs’ existing protection against infectious disease would be preferable to periodic ‘blind’ vaccination, the scientists said.

Such an approach could prove useful in reducing adverse effects and improving public opinion, they concluded. In the past there has been strong opposition from several lobby groups against the use and implementation of vaccination.

However, there is concern that misinformed dog owners could potentially avoid having their dogs vaccinated.

The study – reported in this week’s Veterinary Record – concluded that there was evidence the duration of immunity was no longer than four years; limited contact with other dogs was identified as a main risk factor for the absence of protective titres.
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Old 12-17-2015, 02:09 PM
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I'm not too busy with life outside of the internet to thank Aurora and Sassafras for their posts.

I'll continue to vaccinate my animals and myself.
Nothing like confirmation bias.
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Old 12-17-2015, 02:36 PM
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I too thank Aurora and Sassafras. Have to wholeheartedly agree with their recommendations and assessments. There are many who site a lot of horrible problems with vaccines, but thankfully there are still many with level heads and perspective that understand the reason for vaccines and their life-saving properties as well as the extremely rare and unlikely bad side of vaccines. As said, there is nothing in medicine that is perfect, but vaccines are pretty darn close, with very very few negatives and a lot of important positives.

I too do not often comment when it comes to these more controversial topics as there seems to be so many raw emotions and anger associated with them, which frankly was a shock and surprise to me having been a veterinarian for nearly 30 years and have come across almost none of this negative sentiment in practice from clients, other pet owners or the general public. Sure there are lots of controversies and changes or differences of opinions all through nearly every area of medicine, and some old thoughts about vaccines have changed somewhat over the years. We are always learning new things, and trying to discard the old ideas that no longer work or seem right... but the veterinary community, like any large community, learns things one way and is sometimes reluctant to change things after they seem to have worked for them for so many years. But the veterinary community does seem to be focusing more on frequency of vaccinations (less may be way better than more sometimes), types of vaccines (less adjuvants in feline vaccines as already mentioned) and even the need for some vaccines (many vaccines have been created since I became of vet that are no longer in use or recommended). Just like in a lot of areas of medicine, once something does not seem to work, or is dangerous, it is often rejected. Fortunately what DOES work, is safe and effective, is kept. And most of the vaccines used today fit that description. Sure some improvements may be made in the future, and some vaccines may even be replaced. But I can tell you from experience, the NOT vaccinating of pets for the serious viral illnesses creates many problems for many pet owners, not just those that chose (or more often, just don't know enough) not to vaccinate their pets but for other as well who's pets get inadvertently exposed to carriers or sick puppies and kittens that spread their diseases about. We see SO many cases of parvo in communities that do not vaccinate well, and also we still are seeing distemper, panleukopenia and leukemia as well, all potentially avoidable diseases if all pet owners would just vaccinate their pets (though have to say, some cat illnesses are now being spread just by that massive numbers of feral cats, not necessarily owners cats... but still, unvaccinated cats regardless). Thankfully rabies, mostly due to its legal requirements, is still a very rare disease to see in dogs and cats, but will never be completely irradiated from this country due to bats, skunks, foxes etc. being a reservoir for this virus... so the need to keep your pets vaccinated for rabies is still present and probably will be forever (until we can figure out how to herd vaccinate these wild animals). And I have never once seen/heard of a problem with a rabies vaccine other than the rare, but very rarely life-threatening, reactions some pets get to some vaccines. No cases of canine cancer have come to my attention from a rabies vaccine. Other than the rare feline vacccine sarcomas have I seen a single death from rabies vaccines, either. And now that we use non-adjuvented rabies in most cats (at least at the clinics where I have worked) we have seen zero new cases of this rare but nasty disease.

Anyway, thanks again for the above comments on vaccines.
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Old 12-17-2015, 05:13 PM
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The problem I have with it being each owner's choice is that choosing not to vaccinate healthy dogs for no reason destroys herd immunity and puts the dogs that can't be vaccinated in danger. Applies to humans, too.
I think my point is also somewhat one of one that it really is technically every dog owner's choice. The only laws/rules that currently exist are only for rabies and those laws aren't actually very enforceable. A person could easily go without vaccinating their dog for rabies, if they truly wanted to. I'm also unlikely to convince anyone whose vehemently against vaccines to do otherwise with their pets. Personally, I'd feel some guilt if my dogs got sick from something that's easily preventable with little risk. I'd feel even worse if another person's dog got sick and died from something my dog had as people get pretty attached to their dogs.

I do find debates about/against vaccines on the net to be amusing. I hadn't heard of someone being completely against vaccines prior to reading about it on the net. lol From what I've read, it's far from a new phenomenon and existed in the late 1800s and 1900s. Vaccines are pretty safe and there is a risk with everything in life, IMO.

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destroys herd immunity and puts the dogs that can't be vaccinated in danger.
That does concern me slightly and I do wonder what will become of that down the road.
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Old 12-17-2015, 05:50 PM
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For me, the thing with vaccines is that there are some that are clearly needed, and others that fall into a "gray area". For humans, polio is a must, but the flu vaccine every year is one many people elect not to get.

For dogs, I would think the rabies and parvo vaccines are absolutely necessary, but I know many people who don't vaccinate for bordetella unless they're going to have their dog in a high-traffic area.

I support research on titer testing because I think it could prevent unnecessary overvaccination. Obviously the system isn't perfect, hopefully one day it will [nearly] be.

That said, all of my dogs are vaccinated and I don't have any problem doing so. I've never had a dog with an adverse reaction, not even lethargy or upset stomach. I think there are some really great times to go "all natural" but I know from personal experience that sometimes actual, pharmaceutical medicine is the best and most effective route.
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Old 12-17-2015, 06:08 PM
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@PoppyKenna I learned something new today. I did not realize that the polio vaccines are still given to people. lol
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